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MRHELLO Offline OP
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Looks like I have lost some of my gold fish in my tank. Not sure what killed them.

I would like to know if I should add some more and if so how many.

Or would it be better to add some FHM to the mix.

I am trying to get my tank cycled so I can add my Tilapia or other fish if they are not available.

Thanks

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No effect on other species?


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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MRHELLO,

if you lost fish in 24 hours. It's most likely either a) something in your water or b) stress from the transport. 24 hours is usually too short for your ammonia or nitrite to get high.

if a) you will continue to lose fish. if b) you shouldnt lose anymore fish.

My first question is always where did you get your water? If it was tap water did you treat or filter your water for chlorine or chloramines (whichever applies to your municipality)

Secondly, it could just have been stress from the transport. I may lose 1 out of 30 when i travel fish an hour or longer.


FIsh are usually very vulnerable after a move. Something i do when i get new fish in an RAS is I salt the system with aquarium salt. This provides chloride which helps replenish the slime coat that they lost due to stress and helps fight off diseases like fungus and ick. Most salts are ok as long as they dont have an anti coagulating agent. Salt amounts between 1ppthousand and 3ppt. The only reason i mention the low range is if you are doing aquaponics some plants do not do well harmed by higher salinity.



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Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Looks like I have lost some of my gold fish in my tank. Not sure what killed them.

I would like to know if I should add some more and if so how many.

Or would it be better to add some FHM to the mix.

I am trying to get my tank cycled so I can add my Tilapia or other fish if they are not available.

Thanks


Sounds like too many fish. I would NEVER start a system using fish unless I want to kill fish. I use foamless ammonia to get my bacteria ammonia going and when ammonia and nitrates drop to 0 I add my fish.


What's your ammonia and nitrite level?


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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MRHELLO Offline OP
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You think 25 2" goldfish is too many for 250 gallons of water?

I need to get some more test strips to check the levels but I would not have thought they could have shot that up that quick as small as they are but you never know.

Last year I just used left of FHM and GSH from a fishing trip, then I added my Tilapia. Then again Tilapia are very forgiving so that probably helped.

I did noticed about 5 gold fish and 1 rosy red (they must have slipped this in on me as a goldfish)

I need to get some grow beds setup to help with the nitrates as well plus I want to give them a shot anyway, but I may use my fingerling grow out tank for that since I do not have a filter for the smaller tank.

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Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
You think 25 2" goldfish is too many for 250 gallons of water?


You wouldn't think so but like I said I don't use fish to cycle my tanks. I see no point in killing fish when adding nonfoaming ammonia does the same thing in about the same amount of time. Also cheaper and less time consuming.
When fractions of ppm of NH4 and NH3 are toxic it doesn't take much to stress or kill fish.

That said goldfish are notorious for carrying disease and parasites and may have as suggested already been stressed. Another reason why I do a fishless cycle. I have a sibling that occasionally sells tropical fish for Walmart. Says their fish are constantly dying and Walmart doesn't seem to care. Also lots of people bringing them back that have no clue about new tank syndrome.

Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
I need to get some more test strips to check the levels but I would not have thought they could have shot that up that quick as small as they are but you never know.


Please don't take offense to this but I don't understand how you would expect to cycle a tank without testing the water. And don't waste your money on test strips. Go with an API master test kit like this for around $20.00.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-API-Freshwat...=item41704fde5b

Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Last year I just used left of FHM and GSH from a fishing trip, then I added my Tilapia. Then again Tilapia are very forgiving so that probably helped.


The joke among the people I know that raise tilipia is you can grow them in gasoline. LOL I mean really in some systems they are used to eat the excretement of the fish upstream...

Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
I did noticed about 5 gold fish and 1 rosy red (they must have slipped this in on me as a goldfish)


Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
I need to get some grow beds setup to help with the nitrates as well plus I want to give them a shot anyway, but I may use my fingerling grow out tank for that since I do not have a filter for the smaller tank.


Getting the tank cycled should be your first concern. Nitrates which are the primary vehicle for plat growth won't show up in any significant useful amounts until after the tank is cycled and fish are being fed. And they are pretty benign to the fish anyway compared to ammonia and nitrites.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 05/24/13 11:29 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: bcotton
MRHELLO,

if you lost fish in 24 hours. It's most likely either a) something in your water or b) stress from the transport. 24 hours is usually too short for your ammonia or nitrite to get high.

if a) you will continue to lose fish. if b) you shouldnt lose anymore fish.

My first question is always where did you get your water? If it was tap water did you treat or filter your water for chlorine or chloramines (whichever applies to your municipality)

Secondly, it could just have been stress from the transport. I may lose 1 out of 30 when i travel fish an hour or longer.


FIsh are usually very vulnerable after a move. Something i do when i get new fish in an RAS is I salt the system with aquarium salt. This provides chloride which helps replenish the slime coat that they lost due to stress and helps fight off diseases like fungus and ick. Most salts are ok as long as they dont have an anti coagulating agent. Salt amounts between 1ppthousand and 3ppt. The only reason i mention the low range is if you are doing aquaponics some plants do not do well harmed by higher salinity.

brian


Excellent points as always Brian! I think he could add salt initially to reduce stress on the fish and then by the time he adds his plants, and adds enough salt free make up water, he wouldn't have any salt left in his system right?

I've been told NO SALT WHATSOEVER in Aquaponic systems. Not sure if that's true but i won't take a chance.




Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 05/24/13 09:54 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Just googling, it appears that some use salt and some run the other direction, real fast. Appears that some who use salt in aquaponics, use sea salt.

Have to look into this further tho. May put a kink in a few things.

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The gold fish were really more for the kids and I figure they would help out some to get the tank started. I always thought they were pretty tough fish but maybe not.

Yes I need to get one of the kits you mentioned to test the water so not offended at all.

Where can I get the foamless ammonia and how much should I add?

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Originally Posted By: JKB
Just googling, it appears that some use salt and some run the other direction, real fast. Appears that some who use salt in aquaponics, use sea salt.

Have to look into this further tho. May put a kink in a few things.


Some plants are salt tolerant at low levels. Most are not.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
The gold fish were really more for the kids and I figure they would help out some to get the tank started. I always thought they were pretty tough fish but maybe not.

Yes I need to get one of the kits you mentioned to test the water so not offended at all.

Where can I get the foamless ammonia and how much should I add?


But you ended up traumatizing the kids! LOL

I get the ammonia at Ace hardware. Shake the bottle. If it foams you don't want it. If it foams it means it has some detergent which is not conducive to bacteria.

Initially add just enough to keep you system at about 4 ppm of ammonia. Probably just a cap full or so for your size system. If you added up to 8 ppm don't panic. It will go back down once you nitrite oxydizing bacteria show up.

Keep testing it once a day for several days and add more to keep the ammonia at 3 to 4 ppm. After four or five days start testing for nitrites along with the ammonia. Once nitrites shows up you are half way through you "cycle." Keep testing once a day for both ammonia and nitrites and keep ammonia at about 3 to 4 ppm by adding more if need be.

At some point (two to three weeks if your water is kept in the upper 70's) your ammonia will be quickly oxidized and converted to nitrites and even when adding ammonia your ammonia and nitrites revert to a reading of zero within a day or less. At the same time you will find your nitrates will be steadily climbing which is due to your nitrites being coverted to nitrates. At this point your system is said to be "cycled" and you can safely add fish.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 05/24/13 03:54 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: MRHELLO


Where can I get the foamless ammonia and how much should I add?


Cecil pee's in his tank, so maybe a couple beer's per day will do the trick laugh

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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Originally Posted By: JKB
Just googling, it appears that some use salt and some run the other direction, real fast. Appears that some who use salt in aquaponics, use sea salt.

Have to look into this further tho. May put a kink in a few things.


Some plants are salt tolerant at low levels. Most are not.


Define the salt you are using. If the pkg is blue with a gal and umbrella, probably the wrong stuff in the first place.

I need to look into this further tho.

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Sodium chloride is sodium chloride isn't it Phil?

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 05/24/13 04:15 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Sodium chloride is sodium chloride isn't it Phil?


Not the only salt Cecil.

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Trying to raise fish in a tank without a test kit is like trying to drive a car on a vacation trip without any gauges. You don't know how fast you're going, no idea when the gas tank will run dry, no idea if it's starting to overheat, and no idea if there's oil pressure. Same thing happens - the car or the fish die.


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Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
Sodium chloride is sodium chloride isn't it Phil?


Not the only salt Cecil.


???


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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I use API aquarium salt that you can get at petco but the same type of stuff is sold for other purposes at hardware stores and maybe pool stores.


I dont expect the umbrella stuff would work because it probably has an anti-caking agent, and/or iodine. I have read morton solar salt is ok, but i havent actually seen a package to know what is in it.

didnt mean to derail the thread, Are there any new deaths today or does it look like it's behind you? I always do fish cycling with minnows or goldfish, It's just important to be very conservative about your fish load, check your ammonia and nitrites religiously, feed the fish moderately and prepare water ahead of time in case you need to do water changes.

If ammonia gets high i stop feeding until it's under control.

brian





Last edited by bcotton; 05/25/13 01:43 AM.
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Brian,

I think the iodine warning is over the top IMHO. I know one fish pathologist that doesn't think it's a big deal and several of the fish nerds on the NANFA site don't either. But better safe than sorry I guess.

I've used iodized salt in a pinch in my RAS's and never had any issues.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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I've always used Morton's kosher salt when transporting. I've not seen any issues.

As for using salt in a system with vegetables -- I believe that would not be going for the veggies. I think it would kill quite a few different kinds of plants.


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I recently purchased a 50# bag of stock salt at Tractor Supply. <$5.00 for 50#. It seemed to work well for mixing in the water to transport fish. But I realize that not everyone will need that volume of salt. wink


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Originally Posted By: esshup
I recently purchased a 50# bag of stock salt at Tractor Supply. <$5.00 for 50#. It seemed to work well for mixing in the water to transport fish. But I realize that not everyone will need that volume of salt. wink


A couple 1200 gallon tanks will go thru it like candy.

I am changing the way of dosing salt.
Originally, I was going to premix in a tank of water, then take salinity measurements and all that stuff. Another mixing tank will also take up room, then pumps, metering devices, conductivity sensors and all that other stuff.

Gravimetric with dry seems to be an easier way, at least for me. And it would all be overhead, so no floor space required. I can measure the water volume in the system within 1/2 gallon, worst case, so make up water and dry dosing should be quite a bit easier.

Just thinking out loud here.

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Originally Posted By: esshup
I recently purchased a 50# bag of stock salt at Tractor Supply. <$5.00 for 50#. It seemed to work well for mixing in the water to transport fish. But I realize that not everyone will need that volume of salt. wink


I don't know if it makes any difference to the fish, but the Stockmans salt at our local TSCs incluldes Yellow Prussiate of Soda (YPS).

I strongly recommend not using it for swimming pools. I learned that the hard way.


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Don't want to use that with fish either!

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A lot of info on this thread!!! I'm coming back for "seconds".

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