Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Water chemistry Aquashade, Phycomycin, Phytoplankton

I am wondering if Aquashade is the right product or pathway for me to go. Here is the scenario:

--I have RBT, so Cutrine is out--at least that's what I have read?

--The FA is starting up and I don't want it to get so bad that it hampers a phytoplankton bloom.

--My visibility is 5' or more.



What do you think?
What else might be critical to know?

I am novice regarding dye but will take a stab at it.

Adding dye will likely hamper your phytoplankton bloom.

Aquashade contains both acid Blue #9 and acid yellow which might also alter the PH level in your pond water. I'm not sure how much or how it might effect your trout.

I added a very small amount of blue dye to my pond shortly after ice to cut the visibility down in my pond so it would hamper the deep weed growth and keep it from getting out of control. The water clarity was 8-9ft when I added it and it cut the visibility down to 3-4ft. The interesting thing is where I poured it directly next to some FA it killed it dead and it killed the bloom that was just starting, it took a week for phytoplankton bloom to come back. I assume the dieing FA and deep vegetation is helping feed the bloom now. I still have small amount of shallow FA coming back so I might mix a diluted dye and spray it directly on top of the floating FA and see if it kills it or not. If it does it's probably due to the PH change.

If you do add some dye go conservative with your application, you can always add more later but too much right off you can't undo easily.

With trout and algae problems, look into using Phycomycin or Green Clean Pro. These are called Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate - basically hydrogen peroxide as active ingredient. Pak 27 is what I use and is the same product but it is not readily available as retail. Green Clean Pro is made in China but Phycomycin and Pak27 are made in Texas - Solvay Chemical. Sodium percarbonate acts by oxidizing the skin on the algae while releasing oxygen. It is very safe for use with chemically sensitive invertebrates and fish including trout. It is best used on FA when it is very small and in early growth stages, not when FA is tall, long, and stringy unless you use a lot of product. Phycomycin in available at most Cygnet Enterprises and some other retailers. Green Clean Pro is the most commonly available form of sodium peroxyhydrate.

Is the product by Cygnet only available to certified pros? Their website only wants to direct you to an applicator.

Answering my own question...I got a hold of a person at Cygnet and a person does not need a license/cert. However, it ships as "hazardous material" and we know where that goes!!!!!!!!!!!

So between Phyco and Green Clean, would you recommend one over the other?

Green Clean Pro is a lot easier to find a nearby retailer. Some fish farms, and pond management companies handle GC Pro. However, since GCPro is the same active ingredient, it also ships hazardous material. Get some and try it to see if it works for your particular FA problem. As I mentioned, for FA that is more established, taller, or even floating it will take more product. When FA is floating is has gotten way ahead of you. Once you get it knocked back don't let it get ahead of you. Treat the FA when it is 1"-2" tall when using GCPro. Not all FA is the same species. Some will be more tolerant than others- depending.

Thanks Bill

Ok. Got ahold of the phycomycin (by cygnet) and spread a little bit out today. Few questions about it now:

- How does it work? Does it mix with the water and is effective everywhere after it dissolves, or does it pretty much only effect the area that it is placed? I went easy with it for now. The bag directions say anywhere from 2.5#/acre to 100#/acre. Big swing there!

- Does this also kill a Phytoplankton bloom if there is one going? If so I will make sure not to apply any when I think the conditions are right for one.

edit--From Bill C "Sodium percarbonate acts by oxidizing the skin on the algae while releasing oxygen." I don't really get this in regards to how does it work. Algae takes it in thru the water? Contact? etc?

Contact and wouldn't worry about it effecting an algae bloom. I will be using some soon in my yellow perch fry production pond to kill filamentous algae but not effect the algae bloom.

I tried the regular Green Clean itself. I think the filamentous algae laughed at it just like it does the Cutrine Plus in my very very hard water.

You think the phycomycin works better than Green Clean?

No matter what source I talk to they have been saying that it is the same chemical stuff. You have me curious now.

We need a little carification about this sodium percarbonate stuff.
1. My statement: "Sodium peroxycarbonate acts by oxidizing the skin on the algae while releasing oxygen." Think of it as similar to action of a strong acid on your skin. The chemical eats into the skin and does damage which is similar but not the same as to how peroxycarbonate works.
2. Sodium peroxycarbonate works best on the species of bluegreen algae, especially those that for surface film/scums. It will kill other algae but the dosage needed is higher than for dealing with bluegreens. It works where ever the dissolved solution is strong enough to cause an oxidation reaction and the amount of material to be oxidized. Application rate, resistance to oxidation, and dilution have big influences.
3. Sodium peroxycarbonate is more effective in cold water compared to copper based compounds such as copper sulfate and Cutrine-Plus. But peroxycarbonate works better and faster in warmer water because the oxidation process is faster, more reactive, and more violent-effective. Again, compare it to battery acid on your skin, the more of it on your skin, the longer you let in on there and the less water to wash it off (dilution) the more the damage.
4. As I understand oxidation and algae,when peroxycarbonate is on the algae, the oxygen atom is released from the H2O2 to form H2O + O the reaction causes disruption or breakdown of the organic material at the surface of the algae. This breakdown of the algal membrane if strong enough it can cause the algae to die.
5. From my experience and other experts it takes more peroxycarbonate material to kill filamentous green algae compared to bluegreen and other more delicate phytoplankton species. When using peroxycarbonate on filamentous algae it is much easier to kill it when it is small and strands are short 1/2"-2" long. Key to success is to treat the algae early and don't let it get tall massive growths.
6. I have never directy compared the two products GCleanPro & Phycomycin in side by side tests. I do not know exactly how Green CleanPro (China) is manufactured compared to Phycomycin (USA made). Both have the same chemical formula. The processes or materials may be slightly different. Lot of things made in China are done differently than those used by USA standards. Theoretically both chemicals should be the same or react similarily, but there could be subtle differences.
7. Phycomycin at higher dose rates will kill green algae and other groups in a plankton bloom based on the sensitivity of the species. However to have a major impact on an entire algae bloom the product has to be applied onto the entire surface. Reactivity of the dissolving granules is down to 6 ft deep before all the granules are dissolved. Some algae species have thicker outer skins thus they are more resistant to the oxidation reaction. With peroxycarbonate, I always tell people to do several small test strips or areas using light to heavy dosages. Discover which dosage works for your application. The wide range of recommended dosages of 2-100 lbs per acre are due to the wide range of types of algae and their morphology differences and their sensitivities to the oxidation reaction.
8. I will check with the chemist at Pak27 about the effects of hard water on effectiveness of peroxycarbonate. I doubt there is a relationship because peroxycarbonate has little effect or impact on inorganic compounds and thus as minerals are unaffected by the oxidation process.

As I see it, the big benefit to peroxycarbonate is it leaves no harmful chemical residue and releases oxygen, water and sodium carbonate (Na2CO3 - washing soda) in the algae killing process. A very different more environmentally safe chemical process compared to copper based heavy metal algacides.

I was comparing the regular Green clean with the Green Clean pro. Big difference for me.

Once again, thank you Bill for the very descriptive advice and answers. What would we do without you!

Just for the record, I spot treated only the areas that had FA. Next day it has had some noticeable effect. Any recommendations on how long it stays active in the water? Currently, pond has no water leaving due to the drought, but it does have water coming in.

Am I understanding this correctly?: The Phyco doesn't stay active for long. A heavy dose is/may be created at one application and doesn't build up from many over a period of time.

That is correct. I'd have to re-read the information again (don't have all this stuff memorized - yet) to be 100% sure, but that's what I remember.

Correct -- the reaction is relatively fast. Activity after applied is short due to the hydrogen peroxide reacting with whatever organic material is in the vacinity. Thus the more biomass to react with it the quicker it gets dissipated. The oxidation process will also eliminate odors and other dissolved organic compounds and start to breakdown tiny suspended organics. Absolutely no build up of residual products. The manufacturer is in the process of seeking an registered organic license (EPA) for the compound.

Has anyone that lives in the mid or northern ohio area seen phytoplankton bloom yet?

Seems like by the descriptions I have read, it should be happening. My water temps have been in the 60's for a while.

edit- more like upper60's and changed the Post's Title so it was more appropriate of the overall thread.

Bill,just a little confused here (actually a lot). What exactly does hydrogen peroxide do?

I've re-typed this post 3 times just to ask this simple question.

Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer or oxidizing agent. For a technical description of an oxidizer see this from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidizing_agent

If you want a simplier definition do some more searching on the web. Hydrogen peroxide in releasing the extra oxygen molecule, the oxygen atom is available to combine with other mostly organic substances to cause a reaction. In the case of algae the reactive oxygen causes a breakdown of the outer layer of tissue of the algae. Some algae have stronger, thicker skin than others. Peroxygen chemistry works best on Cyanobacteria (bluegreen algae) that have thin "skin". Strong, highly concentrated hydrogen peroxide will cause discoloration of human skin and start to deteriorate - dissolve (eat into) the skin similar to sulfuric and nitric acids both strong oxidizers.

Bill, I'm not a scientist. I read the wikipedia page and am probably more confused now than befoe I read it.

Is hydrogen peroxide an algae killer? (I think I understand the thicker skin algae cases).

Would you use it straight out of the bottle (or barrel) in your pond? Or does it have to be diluted with something else?

Thanks for putting up with me Bill...... For some reason, I can't understand this.

HL, I don't think Hydorgen Peroxide from the pharmacy will do it.

Active Ingredients

Hydrogen Peroxide (3%)First Aid Antiseptic, Oral Debriding Agent

Inactive Ingredients

Purified Water

Phycomycin on the other hand..... Look at the ingredients

Hang-loose, FWIW when I have used the Phyco it takes a fair amount on a spot treatment basis to get rid of the algae, just as Bill had said. The effect is diluted, or you might say friendly, or forgiving. So, what Esshup says about the pharmacy product that is even more diluted would seem accurate. It probably would just disperse in the body of water so fast in wouldn't contact the algae enough. I also have a hard time understanding the "chemical" part so don't feel that you are alone. I have experienced that it works.

HL - Strong hydrogen peroxide (H202) is an algae killer but the important word here is strong. Weak (dilute 1%-3%) H202 is okay to use on wounds and as mouth rinse to disinfect but stong concentrations will remove and eat skin similar to strong acids. If you ever spilled battery acid on clothes and it make holes in the material, that is an example of a strong acid reaction.

Green Clean does make a liquid H202 for algea control, however it is 27% strength H202. The concentration that I use in the lab for digesting algae is 30-35% - very strong stuff. The GreenClean liquid formulation is designed to be diluted and sprayed on surface algae. The liquid form doesn't have a big impact to kill algae as it sinks and becomes diluted to the 1%-3% or less 'strength'. The granular material has a better affect on deeper subsurface algae because it dissolves as it sinks or if it lies on the bottom and dissolves it releases the hydrogen peroxide on and among the algae. Granular material is said to have an affect up to six ft deep before it is all dissolved.
The hydrogen peroxide is best used on the thin skin algae, such as bluegreens, which are most susceptable the oxidation of the soft delicate layer of the some algae.

Bill--the lightbulb just came on for me as to why green clean and phycomycin get different responses and results for people that use them. In the situation for trout, green clean is for surface matts and phyco for deep algae. Thank you.

FWIW HL, when I spread the Phyco out (it's granular), I can see it settle down thru the water ONTO the algae, where its in direct contact to do its thing. If it was liquid, it would be diluted by that point.

Green Clean also is available in granular form. However the different responses in different ponds are probably due to different species of algae, some being more resistant to the oxidation process compared to others. Also the amount applied will have an affect. There are several imporatnt variables from pond to pond which can affect the final result.

For tougher algae species, I might suggest a combination of GREENCLEAN Liquid and HYDROTHOL 191 (3:1 to 6:1 ratios, respectively). These two products compliment each other with different modes-of-action.
Also, never tank-mix CUTRINE (or any form of copper) with GREENCLEAN. The exothermic reaction of an oxidizer combined with a heavy metal; though entertaining to watch, isn't overly "friendly" on application equipment - and certainly isn't desirable from a performance standpoint.
I've been impressed by GREENCLEAN LIQUID's effectiveness. However, its downside involves the need to dilute it with water before application in order to provide enough volume for thorough coverage and penetration of matted FA-growth (or for subsurface injections). Since the oxidation-process is "triggered" as soon as the product contacts water, tank-mixing GC Liquid with water requires that it be applied relatively quickly - before the reaction "fizzles out".
The device shown below is a newly developed 12v sprayer (patent pending) that overcomes this dilemma by sourcing water-diluent from over the boat's transom and "live-injecting" the product (ie. GREENCLEAN Liquid alone, or in combination with HYDROTHOL 191) from a concentrate-reservoir immediately before the diluted mixture exits the spray-gun. The volume produced by this injection-system benefits algae-mat penetration while avoiding the decline in GREENCLEAN-activity that occurs if it is pre-mixed with water in a spray-tank.

BTW: Cygnet isn't the only source for these and many other aquatic products