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John Wann #317320 01/11/13 11:30 PM
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Does getting the shot possibly lead to a stronger, more resistant strain of the virus? Like the way that penicillin is not near as effective as it once was? Is it possible that 50 years from now the shot will no longer be effective? By getting the shot are we possibly contributing to the creation of a newer, more potentially devestating strain of the flu???

Kind of an endless circle scenario?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
John Wann #317321 01/11/13 11:52 PM
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The shot won't lead to any changes in the virus, as the virus doesn't "resist" the shot in any way-the virus' surface proteins are either recognized and destroyed by the immune system, or not recognized, in which the virus enters cells within the respiratory tract and hijacks their innards.
Bacteria become resistant to antibiotics in many ways, but often by a process of natural selection in which a population of actively reproducing organisms is exposed to a stress [the antibiotic] which leads to selection of a few organisms that have some resistance. Repeated rapid cycling of subsequent generations leads to bugs that have more and more resistance.
The worst influenza epidemic ever, in 1918-19, occurred way before any vaccines were available.

John Wann #317323 01/12/13 12:14 AM
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Thanks Yolk, I've wondered about that for some time. At least I now know that I won't be contributing to the development of a superbug by getting the shot.

But I'm still not ready to get one... grin


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Zep #317325 01/12/13 01:07 AM
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[quote=Zep... I tend to think flu shots are a big scam $$$$$$...there's lots of info on YouTube and Google that explain it better than I can. Of course the "medical establishment" highly recommends it. So I say study the pro's and cons and make your own personal decision...2EachHisOwn.[/quote]

I am a small town family medicine doctor. I have been dealing with the flu this year rather hard core for the past 6 weeks. I have never made a dime giving a flu shot, yet i make money every day by treating people who get the flu. i much prefer to see people for preventative treatment rather than treating for a condition that could be prevented.

The flu shot doesn't give you the flu...period... it does start the immune response to develop the immune system to fight the flu. basically, it makes the "army" to fight the virus. During this process, a part of the immune system called cytokines are released and his causes the "flu like symptoms" but this is very short lived. Every year the army has to be changed to protect against the new mutated virus; Thus we get a new shot every year.

A young healthy person who doesn't want the shot... fine, come see me when you are sick!, the young, old or immunocompromised, it is inappropriate to not immunize.

For me and my family, we will take the flu shot!

( I have been exposed to airborne flu virus 10+ times daily for past 6 weeks, thus I feel very strongly that I have good protection this year)

Last edited by Dustin Pratt; 01/12/13 01:09 AM.
Dustin Pratt #317327 01/12/13 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: Dustin Pratt
the young it is inappropriate to not immunize.


I am no doctor, and still trying to learn and investigate,
but what about stuff like this Dr. Pratt?

"children who had received the flu vaccine had three times the risk of hospitalization, as compared to children who had not received the vaccine, according to new research that will be presented International Conference of the American Thoracic Society in San Diego"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090519172045.htm


or this?



November 5, 2012

By RONI CARYN

It’s flu-shot season, and public health officials are urging everyone over 6 months of age to get one. Many businesses provide on-site flu shots, and some hospitals have told staff members that they have to wear masks if they do not get the vaccine. By 2020, United States health leaders want 80 percent of the population to get yearly shots.

For vaccine manufacturers, it’s a bonanza: Influenza shots — given every year, unlike many other vaccines — are a multibillion-dollar global business.

But how good are they?

Last month,, in a step tantamount to heresy in the public health world, scientists at the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota released a report saying that influenza vaccinations provide only modest protection for healthy young and middle-age adults, and little if any protection for those 65 and older, who are most likely to succumb to the illness or its complications. Moreover, the report’s authors concluded, federal vaccination recommendations, which have expanded in recent years, are based on inadequate evidence and poorly executed studies.

“We have overpromoted and overhyped this vaccine,” said Michael T. Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, as well as its Center of Excellence for Influenza Research and Surveillance. “It does not protect as promoted. It’s all a sales job: it’s all public relations.”

Dr. Osterholm, who says he is concerned that confidence in current vaccines deters research into identifying more effective agents, comes from the world of public health and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. A bioterrorism and public health preparedness adviser to Tommy Thompson, the former health and human services secretary, he served on the interim management team during a transition period at the C.D.C. in 2002.

“I’m an insider,” Dr. Osterholm said. “Until we started this project, I was one of the people out there heavily promoting influenza vaccine use. It was only with this study that I looked and said, ‘What are we doing?’

He still considers himself a “a pro-vaccine guy,” Dr. Osterholm said.

“I say, ‘Use this vaccine,’ ” he said. “The safety profile is actually quite good. But we have oversold it. Use it — but just know it’s not going to work nearly as well as everyone says.”

While researching the report released last month, Dr. Osterholm said, the authors discovered a recurring error in influenza vaccine studies that led to an exaggeration of the vaccine’s effectiveness. They also discovered 30 inaccuracies in the statement on influenza vaccines put forth by the expert panel that develops vaccine recommendations, all of which favor the vaccine.

C.D.C. officials acknowledge that the vaccines do not work as well in the elderly population as they do in younger healthy adults. But, they say, the effectiveness of the flu shots, which are reformulated every year in an attempt to match the strains most likely to be circulating that season, varies depending on the population being inoculated and the year.

“Does it work as well as the measles vaccine? No, and it’s not likely to. But the vaccine works,” Dr. Joseph Bresee, chief of epidemiology and prevention in the C.D.C.’s influenza division, said. And research is advancing to improve the effectiveness of the vaccine.

Although the vaccine may be less effective at preventing influenza in the elderly, Dr. Bresee said, that is the population most susceptible to the disease and at highest risk. Anywhere from as few as 3,000 to as many as 49,000 Americans die of influenza each year, some 90 percent of them elderly.

The new report from the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy is not the first to point out the shortcomings of influenza vaccines, however. The Cochrane Collaboration, an international network of experts that evaluates medical research, concluded in a 2010 review that the vaccines decrease symptoms in healthy adults under 65 and save people about a half-day of work on average, but that they do not affect the number of people hospitalized and have minimal impact in seasons when vaccines and viruses are mismatched.

(When the vaccine matches the circulating viruses, 33 adults need to be vaccinated to avoid one set of influenza symptoms; when there is only a partial match, 100 people must be vaccinated for the same effect.) It was also concluded that the vaccines appear to have no effect on hospital admissions, transmission or rates of complications. A separate Cochrane review on vaccines for the elderly determined the evidence was so scant and of such poor quality that it could not provide guidance. Dr. Bresee of the C.D.C. pointed to only one randomized controlled trial of influenza vaccine in older people, and it looked at people age 60 and over in the Netherlands healthy enough to not be hospitalized or in a nursing home.

Another Cochrane review found no evidence that vaccinating health care workers who work with the elderly has any effect on influenza or pneumonia deaths.

“Not having evidence doesn’t prove it doesn’t work; we just don’t know,” said Dr. Roger Thomas, a Cochrane Collaboration coordinator for the University of Calgary in Alberta, who was an author of both of the reviews. “The intelligent decision would be to have large, publicly funded independent trials.”

But those may never be conducted on the elderly, in large part because of the way the vaccine was promulgated. Initially developed for soldiers and approved in 1945, the vaccine was approved for civilian use a year later. In 1960, the surgeon general, Leroy E. Burney recommended vaccinating three high-risk groups: pregnant women, the chronically ill and people 65 and over, Dr. Osterholm said. Once that recommendation was made, scientists felt that it would be unethical to run a trial that would essentially deny a recommended vaccine to participants assigned to the placebo group.

C.D.C. officials say population-based studies show that elderly people who get flu shots are less likely to die of any cause than elderly people who do not get them. Critics say these studies suffer from what’s called the healthy vaccine recipient effect and prove only that older people who are in good health and take care of themselves go to the doctor regularly — and get flu shots.

Many of these are big-picture concerns that an individual patient cannot do much about. The reassuring news is that even critics of the influenza vaccines agree that serious complications are rare.

Another option for those who want to reduce their risk of influenza and flulike infections may be simply this: Wash your hands more often. There is good evidence this works.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/reassessing-flu-shots-as-the-season-draws-near/



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John Wann #317328 01/12/13 07:47 AM
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BGK, at my last Dr. Appointment they informed me I had not had ant immunizations since 1986. Then the proceeded to stick a needle in my arm. I think it was a tetanus shot.


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John Wann #317329 01/12/13 07:47 AM
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OK here is my experience. I'm 78. As you age your immune system gets weaker. Starting sometime in my early 60's I got a runny nose. This turned into or was the flu but not always. This often led to pneumonia and this was scary. I couldn't breath and thought my lungs were coming out of my throat. Then as often as not it turned into pneumonia and I would wonder am I going to make it this time or not. So I started to get a flu shot every year and the pneumonia shot ever 5 or 10 years, I forget how often it's required. For the last dozen years or so I haven't had a problem.


John Wann #317330 01/12/13 08:13 AM
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As with most science, their are deniers that take bits and pieces to put together "evidence" against the massive and persuasive evidence that convinces most in the field. Even some doctors are quacks, or like doctor Oz, are entertainers. Science is not a democratic enterprise, one scientist with well designed experiments can disprove the "establishment", but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. GM crops are safe, evolution is real, global climate change is happening, Flu shots do much more good than harm (but this year only work in 2 of 3 cases which is not unexpected for a vaccine against multiple viruses), and efficient cold fusion has not been accomplished. If you think there is a conspiracy by scientists to deceive, you can believe that, but believing does not make things so, no no no, no no no...

John Wann #317337 01/12/13 08:58 AM
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So then it appears we're back to acting upon faith.... where do you put your money when both sides can apparently present credible evidence proving that their interpretation is the correct one? Those who receive the shot are quick to sing it's praises by virtue of them having not contracted the virus, but the general concensus here seems to be that I've never had a "real" case either, and I'm 46 years old and have yet to receive my first flu shot....and, I have a 9 and a 12 year old enrolled in public school, my wife works with the public everyday, (as do I), and they've never had the shot, (or the flu apparently by way of its description here), either? Even when it's been widespread enough to cancel school?

Is there a first time for everything? Sure. But I would argue that the odds are in my favor, having gone this long without it. I don't have any evidence to support this, but I believe people have varying degrees of....resistance? to occasional maladies, including the flu, different strains notwithstanding.

I also feel strongly that if someone believes the shot helps them, then they should get it. Just like I believe that a little raw ginseng every morning helps keep me healthy. No proof at all, but that does bring us right back to faith....I personally don't believe that the shot itself is dangerous, I just don't think that everyone requires it.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
John Wann #317339 01/12/13 09:07 AM
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Every decision in life, either consciously or subconsciously is made with a personal risk analysis.

Advantages to getting flu shot:

1. Possible avoidance of inconvenience caused by getting the flu.
2. Possible avoidance of being a vector for passing the flu to others.
3. Possible avoidance of death.

Disadvantages of getting the flu shot.

1. Cost
2. Inconvenience

As a health care provider, the amount of inconvenience and risk involved with getting the flu far outweigh any minor cost or inconvenience. So I get mine.

Since people are not legally required to get the flu shot, it's all personal choice, and I don't get concerned how people analyze and act upon perceived risks. I would however be very concerned if I had an elderly or frail grandmother who was recieving health care from folks who had a cavalier attitude about receiving the injection.


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John Wann #317343 01/12/13 09:38 AM
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Condello I think you stated it very well. Few words, much wisdom. So you could save fifteen bucks and maybe an hour of your precious time or a week in bed or worse.


Advantages to getting flu shot:

1. Possible avoidance of inconvenience caused by getting the flu.
2. Possible avoidance of being a vector for passing the flu to others.
3. Possible avoidance of death.

Disadvantages of getting the flu shot.

1. Cost
2. Inconvenience


"I love living. I have some problems with my life, but living is the best thing they've come up with so far." � Neil Simon,
John Wann #317344 01/12/13 09:43 AM
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Agreed. I think the elderly, as well as those with compromised immune systems, are at a much higher risk and should have the shot.

I've spent my entire life in the great outdoors. Hunting, fishing, trapping, cutting firewood, harvesting mushrooms and ginseng. All four seasons, every conceivable type of weather, every chance I get, I'm in the woods. I have yet to contract my first case of poison ivy. My 72 year old father, (who by the way got his flu shot! :D), has never had poison ivy.

My wife on the other hand, is not so fortunate. Handling my clothes will cause her to break out....found that out early on in our marriage.

Poison ivy has nothing to do with the flu, but I use this as an example of folks having varying degrees of resistance to something. Maybe I've never had poison ivy because I BELIEVE I'm immune....fine by me, whatever works...I believe in the power of faith, including instances outside of theology. The placebo effect is well documented in science, and I'm not willing to discount the power of having faith just yet. Maybe I've never gotten the flu simply because I don't believe I will?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
John Wann #317348 01/12/13 09:59 AM
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Brief Hijack Interlude:
Originally Posted By: sparkie
Maybe I've never had poison ivy because I BELIEVE I'm immune....

Being a terrible sufferer of poison ivy, I've looked into this. In the one North American manufacturing plant that processes urushiol, the active allergen in poison ivy, EVERYONE that works there eventually becomes completely tolerant to the chemical and thus resistant to poison ivy. It's probably your very long history of nearly constant exposure that's lead to tolerance.
There is evidence that ingesting a small amount of poison ivy on a regular basis will lead to the development of tolerance. I've seriously considered doing this, but it appears that if one takes in just a bit too much, the development of very severe itching at the point of excretion can occur. Not sure I want to take that risk!!

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.....

John Wann #317352 01/12/13 10:16 AM
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Out of a warped sense of curiosity I have to ask....Yolk, what do they process the urushiol for?? What is the intended use?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
John Wann #317354 01/12/13 10:26 AM
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Yolk Sac,

Injecting a small amount of an allergen into people and increasing the dose over time is exactly what allergy therapy does. I know I've done it with other allergens. Once a week to the doctor's office for a shot. I had to stop as sitting around for 2 hours at the doctor's office every week wasn't doing anything for my one man business.



Urushiol is one of the most potent substances on the planet:

* Only 1 nanogram (billionth of a gram) needed to cause rash
* Average is 100 nanograms for most people
* 1/4 ounce of urushiol is all that is needed to cause a rash in every person on earth
* 500 people could itch from the amount covering the head of a pin
* Specimens of urushiol several centuries old have found to cause dermatitis in sensitive people.
* 1 to 5 years is normal for urushiol oil to stay active on any surface including dead plants

http://poisonivy.aesir.com/view/fastfacts.html

Now back to our regularly scheduled program - again...

BTW I won't be getting a flu shot. Why? I predict there will be a shortage and it might as well go to someone that really needs it.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 01/12/13 10:28 AM.

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This is my take.

I will not let anyone put a needle in me unless it's a matter of life and death due to the many different things I have read about, that are supposedly put into vaccines.
One of these components per my understanding is a compound known as Thiomersal. It's a compund which is derived from Mercury.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal

I am not a scientist, so I can only glean information, and make my own decisions.

Mercury in your body good? Mercury in your body bad?

The next is what I have read and a bit off the subject, but is Sodium Flouride. Yeah, the stuff they put into toothpaste and drinking water for cavity prevention.
It's my understanding sodium flouride is a by-product of the fertilizer and aluminum industry.
I have also seen evidence that it is a main ingredient in some rodent poisons and insect poisons.

On a tube of toothpaste it specifically says under the warning label and I quote...."If more than used for brushing is accidentally swallowed, get medical help or contact a poison control center right away".

What's up with that? Why isnt that written on a jug of milk?

Should we really be putting that in our mouths?

As I said I am not a scientist, so I can only form my own opinion. Evidence says these things are good, evidence says these things are bad.

Yes science is wonderful, but it also been used in tyrannical ways. Even our own government affiliates used normal vaccines to intentionally infect African Americans with syphillus.

Check this out, who was behind it and the current Federal Executive orders that are able to influence modern "experiments". Third paragraph. Think of this next time a "Federal Entity" recomends something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

So my choice is this, I am not going to be the first in line to put something into my body just because some stranger says "It is good for me."

Today, many "scientific studies" are funded by the entities which wish to capitalize from their use.And many times I see the experimental groups are only subjected for short term.

That in my opinion is like picking up my first pack of cigarettes and smoking them, then 3 months later saying "See I dont have lung cancer or emphysema."

Like I say I am no expert but while the jury is still out..........

Last edited by JamesBryan; 01/12/13 10:46 AM.

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Yolk Sac #317357 01/12/13 10:35 AM
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Sprkplug and Yolk:

I'm in the "not affected by poison ivy" group - until last Spring. I was cutting a LOT of storm damaged trees down, and one warm day I cut a bunch of trees that had a LOT of poison ivy growing up into the trees. The vines were over 1" thick on the trunks. I did get a small spot on the inside of one elbow that itched and had small sores. I thought it was from scratching so much, but it probably was poison ivy. My arms were covered in sawdust for most of the day, and I was sweating pretty good to boot. It took a while to figure out what it was since I've never been bothered by it.

When I was a kid, playing outside in the woods, my friends would be affected by it, but I never was. When turkey hunting in Ca. one day, when the sun came up my friend and I were sitting in a patch of poison oak. In a few days she had symptoms on her ankles and wrists - I had none.

As for the flu shot, I think that it has a lot to do to each individuals exposure, and their immune system. I think some people are easier "targets" than others, just like some people have allergies and some don't. I noticed that I would get sick more often when I was burning the candle at both ends.

Now that my schedule has slowed down a bit during the winter, the colds are few and far between.


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John Wann #317361 01/12/13 10:57 AM
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Lots of misinformation. Poison ivy is an allergy not a disease. Allergy is a non-productive over-reaction of the immune system, not the lack of sufficient immunity to overcome an invading virus. Thiomersal is a safe preservative used in vaccines, but due to political pressure is no longer used in developed countries like the US, but is still used in developing countries where immunizations must be stored for long periods of time under adverse conditions. Like I said above, it is easy to pick and choose evidence to support a belief, but science is all about considering all the credible evidence. Next time I need a surgery, I will sure not take a vote among the public on which one I need. It is all about who you trust, the scientists, or posters on the web. The personal stories about getting or not getting the flu are kind of like asking folks if the earth looks round or flat when they look out there window.

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Originally Posted By: RAH
..it is easy to pick and choose evidence to support a belief, but science is all about considering all the credible evidence...


Best quote on this thread. Thank you!


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True RAH, and the "experts" in the day said the world was flat and you would fall off the edge". If one were to negate this theory they were considered "conspiracy theorists", and mostly likely sent to the torture chambers for questioning the the ones with "credibility"!.


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RAH, the earth is flat, can't you see that? wink grin

Agreed about the allergy thing.


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Originally Posted By: SP
what do they process the urushiol for??

Best I recall, the oil was extracted from cashew shells, where it's found in extremely high concentrations, for use in brake linings. Can't remember in exactly what capacity.

John Wann #317370 01/12/13 11:28 AM
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Typically, I believe that science takes the literal interpretation route, rather than the implied message...I'm not comparing poison ivy to the flu, I'm just saying that I believe some may be more resistant to certain viruses than others.

Maybe I've had the flu after all? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44275043/ns/health-cold_and_flu/t/why-some-people-dont-get-flu/


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
Yolk Sac #317371 01/12/13 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: Yolk Sac
Originally Posted By: SP
what do they process the urushiol for??

Best I recall, the oil was extracted from cashew shells, where it's found in extremely high concentrations, for use in brake linings. Can't remember in exactly what capacity.



Cashew shells? So you're telling me that there's no market for wild-grown poison ivy?? grin And here I thought I might be sitting on a small fortune.... laugh Thanks for the info Yolk, that's interesting stuff.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
John Wann #317372 01/12/13 11:34 AM
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...some may be more resistant to certain viruses than others.

No doubt about that. Antibody studies show a great many people with
evidence of past infections from West Nile, Mononucleosis, even some tic born diseases such as Erhlichiosis-who were never aware that they had a serious illness, and recouperated completely. They probably had mild symptoms attributed to "some virus"....

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