Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
fethiye, iamjimmyjones, MinaSilva, KyleR, Penyy25
18,402 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,823
Posts556,044
Members18,403
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,269
ewest 21,448
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,062
Who's Online Now
12 members (Justin W, FireIsHot, H20fwler, e_stallman, LeighAnn, HoneyHole, GeoKuntz, BJ Nick, Tbar, Theo Gallus, LANGSTER, NickDG), 517 guests, and 190 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,448
Likes: 257
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,448
Likes: 257
TShad will not make it up there in ponds unless you have a source of warm water. If you get ice for more than a day or two they are toast.
















Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
I'm not sure that I would even suggest threadfins for a northern pond even if they did survive cooler water. I am not saying that SMB won't do well with threadfins because big smallies are produced in some waters with threadfins. But on the other side big smallies are also produced without threadfins as noted by others and more recently by BobbyRice, a member here.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=25055&Number=317191#Post317191
Also see "Talking Points: Smallmouth Bass" by Dave Willis and Bill Cody in Jan-Feb 2013 Pond Boss Magazine.

Threadfins are filter plankton feeders and work well with lots of plankton which means one would likely have to fertilize to get good results or truly worthwhile benefits from threadfins. With a limited amount of plankton the threadfins may actually end competing heaavily with the smallie fry and other desired fish in the pond by eating too many zooplankton needed by the more desirable fish. Fertilizing northern ponds or any pond with SMB is risky and dangerous due to possible plankton crashes and associated DO sags. Risky and dangerous expecially if one is not well versed in fertilizing and being able to properly monitor the blooms.

Smallmouth are IMO more sensitive to DO sags compared to largemouth bass. So in trying to properly maintain threadfins with good plankton blooms to enhance smallmouths, one might end up killing the smallmouths due periodic to lower annual water quality events; which is sort of like 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'. The chances of periodic DO sags happening would depend on many interacting variables of the pond ecosystem and ambient conditions. It is too risky a plan IMO if you really value the smallies once you have raised them to 16+".

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/22/13 09:46 AM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,386
B
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,386
Couple of things, why has'nt anyone mentioned the drawbacks of certian crawdads (reds? are'nt they the ones that burrow?) If papershells are available that may be the way to go. Have you considered HSB instead of SMB? After much conversation with BC and research i went with HSB and it works very well. In my opinion they are as fun to catch, pellet trained, grow rapidly and are very easy to manage. Also, BC recomended to me to stock Bluntnose and Spotfin shiners. After I ignored his advice to only stock 12-15 HSB (1/4 acre pond) I soon had 30 very plump HSB and NO flatheads. Thank goodness for the Blunts and Spots. Thined the HSB down to 12 the first fall and now have ones that about pull the rod from ya. Just my 2 cents.


Do nature a favor, spay/neuter your pets and any weird friends or relatives.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
I will not be feeding or restocking (maybe a pipe dream), so I want fish that can breed (SMB vs. HSB). I may not have luck with the SMB due to my watershed for this pond being a soybean/corn field on adjacent land. Even with a settling pond, I expect fertilizer input depending on the timing of rains, so I will need to see if I get algal blooms. If things look good, I may add paddlefish which are also filter feeders, but will not contribute otherwise to the food chain (I hope). I am now thinking about going slow with 5 lbs of FHM and collected forage species (BNM, darters, creek chubs, etc.) this spring followed by RES and GSH this fall, and SMB the following fall. I could go faster, but I want to be sure that the forage species are plentiful before I add the SMB. I also want to get aquatic plants established before adding crayfish, but they will likely add themselves. I will be pushing dead spruce trees out on the ice this weekend and may start adding honey locust branches as a plant protector for geese.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
If you are going to add creek chubs you will be better served to add golden shiners. Both species will be nuisance biters for small live bait users. Chubs will be more of a nuisance since their mouth gape is much larger than that for golden shiner. Larger creek chubs can eat a sizable item. Plus shiners will repopulate and chubs will not.

I would add crayfish and not rely on immigrants because the stocked, reproducting and colonized crays will make it harder for the more problematic invaders to become established although some invading crays are very competitive and can crowd out dense populations of the more beneficial ones such as less aggressive papershell crayfish (Orconectes immunis). The crayfish species of water nymph crayfish (Orconectes nais) and northern crayfish (Orconectes virilis), both common pond species with less tendency to make chimney burrows, may be good ones to stock as forage. Another fairly large type species found in ponds is the White River Crayfish (Procambarus acutus) which occurs along the east coast and in states of the main Mississpi Rv drainage. The White River cray will readily burrow and make a simple vertical chimney. These three species are a little larger than papershells and may be better competitors to some of the immigrant ditch burrowing crayfish belonging the genus Cambarus or Procambarus. Established ponds with good crayfish habitat and nearby streams have more than one species of crayfish in the pond due to immmigration.

IMPORTANT NOTE: when adding crayfish it is best to use one of the species native to your region - do your homework. Crayfish are good short distance overland travelers and migrators from adjacent streams and ponds. Any crayfish species not native to your locale is considered an invasive species and when established in your local surface waters can cause problems with the native crayfish species and the surrounding ecosystem. So when stocking crayfish choose the more beneficial ones that are already reported for your state.
Crayfish by State:
http://iz.carnegiemnh.org/crayfish/country_pages/species_by_state.htm

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/23/13 11:39 AM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
I plan on adding shiners too. Will adding creek chubs hurt the shiners? If so, I will try to avoid them, especially if they will not reproduce. We have a lot of burrowing crayfish in the area. Will these be unable to overwelm other species if they are stocked. The "native" burrowers do not represent a problem for my dams based on width of my dams. I was planning to add collected crayfish after getting water plants established. Will adding golden shiners with the FHM significantly slow the reproduction of the FHM? If not, I'll add both in spring. My goal is to get a lot of aquatic plants and forage established so that I favor a sustained population of forage for the SMB. I really want to get the eelgrass established. I have no concern for bait stealers since we only use artificial bait.

Last edited by RAH; 01/23/13 01:57 PM.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
P.S. I'll be adding GSH in Spring, not Fall.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
IMO the creek chubs will grow to 8"-10" long. They will eat big insects and small fish including SMB fry. Shiners will do the same thing but to a lesser extent - IMO. IMO chubs would be only good to add as wounded individuals to feed adult bass. Adult chubs will not "hurt" shiners unless you consider chubs eating shiner fry hurting them. Shiners and fathead minnows are compatable IMO and experience.

Normally the crays will only be abundant or even common until the smallies get to 10"-12" and their offspring is big enough to eat baby crays then the crays will be scarce or even rare. Smallies really put the 'hurt' on crays even in the best of pond habitats. IMO to maintain good crayfish populations in a pond the pond would need 70% to 100% of the shoreline lined with coarse rip rap (broken concrete etc) as refuge for the crays and that might not be enough in a pond with a 'strong' smallie population (60-80/ac subadult & adults).

Last edited by Bill Cody; 01/23/13 09:04 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
RAH #318783 01/23/13 10:19 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 733
F
Offline
F
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 733
Originally Posted By: RAH
Will adding golden shiners with the FHM significantly slow the reproduction of the FHM?


I work a small bait pond tear drop shaped 100 ft by 60 ft with both GSH and FH. I catch both and fair numbers with traps and cast net, and I doubt I over harvest this pond. I get very mature FH and not a lot of small ones. There is a lack of cover in this pond also.
I doubt the Shiners hinder the reproduction but would be they do hinder the recruitment.

Do you think you have enough cover for fry to hide in? as it will help all species not just the FH. (every one says the fathead will be gobbled up right away anyways once you have a predetor base)


Water is the basis of all life, by design!
fishm_n #318784 01/23/13 10:22 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 733
F
Offline
F
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 733
I forgot to say that this pond has always had FHM, and added the GSH about 5 years ago.


Water is the basis of all life, by design!
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
I'll leave the creek chubs out.

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
FHM and GSH egg sites ready for the ice to melt. Also showing how steep the grade is on the dam.




Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
I hope you have those tree weighted down so they don't float all over the place when the ice melts. FHM will not do a lot of spawning on those trees. Fatheads will prefer the area with the larger rocks in the foreground. Try to get some more concrete or tethered floating boards near those rocky areas. Golden shiners prefer shallow grassy areas near the shore for laying eggs. They will sometimes use filamentous algae mats at the shoreline.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
They will have to find their own resting place like the ones I used in my old pond. I read that FHM will lay on the bottom of logs and branches. No? Also I will be adding lily pads which they apparently really like and do well on. I can add waxed cardboard if needed.

Last edited by RAH; 01/27/13 05:06 PM.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,787
Likes: 67
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 8,787
Likes: 67
Pallets, placed in shallow water, work very well for FHM spawning structure. Tie them to a piece of PVC or rebar so they don't float away. They will get waterlogged, and sink, so keep them shallow. I don't know if FHM will spawn on pallets laying on the bottom of 6' depth. Pallets are easy to source and can be picked up for free pretty easily.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

[Linked Image from i1261.photobucket.com]


Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
We all have our quirks. I like to use natural materials where I can. I used a bunch of branches and trees in my first pond. Most lodged in shallow water. They all appear gone now, but I currently have lots of emergent plants and lily pads to provide cover. I have read that waxed cardboard disappears pretty quickly, but lasts long enough for a season of FHM breeding. I am patient, so we will see how long it takes for the forage species to get thick. I have a lot of plant material to use on the new pond from this older pond. I just need to keep the geese at bay. I am after diverse wildlife habitat, but some trophy SMB would be a nice bonus.







Last edited by RAH; 01/27/13 07:11 PM.
RAH #319211 01/27/13 07:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
F
Offline
F
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,315
Nice pond setting there!

How long did it take to get those lilys established and about how many did you start with?

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
These pictures were taken 6 or 7 years after the pond was built. I started with 4 different lily plants bought at Lowes, The pink, yellow, and white did fine, but the orange died. A couple years later, a friend then gave us a bunch of nicer flowering ones from his pond, which also mostly did well. The best performer has been the pink from Lowes. One of the reds is really nice, but not so hardy. I have dug and transplanted yearly from this initial stock, into this pond, a couple wetlands, and a friends pond. One of the wetlands and the friends pond has lilies doing well, but a couple deeper wetlands near our stream have been tough on them. The turtles and crayfish are my best guess at the culprits, but keeping the muskrats out has also been a continuing challenge. The pond in the pictures gets fewer plant eaters in it and can tolerate more damage without showing it. The pond in the picture has significantly more water lilies now due to continuing transplanting, and will be where we get transplants for the new pond. It is quite nice to sit on our dock during mornings when they are all blooming along with the iris, pickerelweed, and other flowers. A great stress reliever!

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
Lots of good golden shiner spawning areas alone the shoreline in the old pond.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
Can anyone difinitively ID this fish?






Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,588
Likes: 251
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 13,588
Likes: 251
Looks like a Golden Shiner to me.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
My pictures are not very good, but the fish has a dark stripe that can be seen along its side in the second picture. Is that common for small golden shiners?

Sunil #323171 02/23/13 10:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,269
Likes: 736
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,269
Likes: 736
RAH, I beleive it's a Creek Chub like you find in the local streams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semotilus_atromaculatus

It'll live in the pond, but I doubt that it'll reproduce there.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,263
Likes: 273
Moderator
Online Content
Moderator
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,263
Likes: 273
Maybe a silly question, but would FHMs spawn under RAH's lilly pads? They're flat, keep constant at surface level, and quickly return when the weather warms up. Seems like a perfect option.


AL

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,062
Likes: 447
It is more like a creek chub than a shiner. Definately not a g.shiner.

Fatheads could spawn under lily pads but with bass present they would be "sitting ducks" and very vulnerable to predators attacking from underneath. Some lily pads have a gelatinous undersurface making it hard to get the eggs to stick to the leaf. If fatheads can spawn close or next to the sediment/bottom in close quarters under an overhanging flat surface that is ideal as it offers protection and a nest that is easily defended by the male parent resulting in a high hatch rate for the eggs.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Page 2 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
george, urban farmer
Recent Posts
HB George
by FireIsHot - 02/23/24 01:07 PM
Leasing Fountains
by Justin W - 02/23/24 01:04 PM
New pond middle TN: establishing food chain?
by BJ Nick - 02/23/24 12:24 PM
Dissolved Oxygen under ice, longer days
by Tinylake - 02/23/24 10:48 AM
Pond liner for Redneck Pool
by Bill Cody - 02/23/24 09:37 AM
6 acre, LMB, Rainbow, specks, sunfish
by Tinylake - 02/23/24 09:26 AM
Caloric Densities for bass forage
by Bill Cody - 02/23/24 09:10 AM
Fish delivery SE Michigan
by Justin W - 02/23/24 07:55 AM
Kubota, LS, Branson & Mahindra Tractors
by Dave Davidson1 - 02/22/24 10:00 PM
Congratulations Bob Lusk!!
by Dave Davidson1 - 02/22/24 09:16 PM
Raft gardening on my ponds
by Dave Davidson1 - 02/22/24 09:15 PM
Hallo from Idaho
by MountainWard - 02/22/24 08:05 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5