Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain micro sunfish for forage??

I got a email from a friend in my states fisheries dept about talk of a banded sunfish project.Now this was before sandy changed a lot of peoples plans,but it got me thinking.Now i never knew of these little guys but my research so far seems to lead me to believe they might be a good forage option for some.Especially as hsb forage and possibly small mouths too.

So while trying to keep my mind off of home I figured I'd see what you all have to say on the little guys.

From what little I've read they don't appear too hardy, probably why they're endangered.

I think they have specific habitat requirements too. CJ will have pretty good input when he gets back here. I'll bet he's busier than a one legged man in a butt kicking contest right not though. Has he posted since Sandy hit?

He has posted a bit.

a few of them are endangered in some states,but chances are I'll have a few in a empty tank when i get home.If I can't kill them in a fish tank I call them hardy.

The little sunfish you refer to are probably the bluespotted, banded and blackbanded sunfish. The bluespotted is by far the most common and widespread of the three. The blackbanded is the least common and most restricted and is endangered in a number of states. They make great aquarium fish however, not the best forage fish. They are rarely found in habitats where they compete with other more common game fish like BG or LMB. They have low fecundity and require very thick vegetation to seek cover in. Also, their habitat preference is for soft acidic waters. That precludes HSB as a predator of them as HSB like hard neutral or slightly alkaline waters. I stocked a few bluespotted sunfish in my forage pond where they have just barely hung on without predation with extensive food. Once predators go in, I suspect they will not last.

There are other small sunfish species to choose from. In the Midwest, the orangespotted sunfish which has been talked about on the forum before is an option. They are however adapted to conditions similar to FHM. They may be a reasonable additional forage for SMB, but I doubt they would do well in a LMB pond. In the south there is the bantam sunfish and also the spotted and redspotted sunfish which are a bit larger than the previously mentioned sunfish species. The dollar sunfish is also found in the south and remains quite small. Again, most of these species are adapted heavily vegetated waters where competition from BG, LMB or other more common game fish is limited. There are also the longear and redbreast sunfish which will reach 8"-10" in size but can do OK in ponds with more common game fish.

thanks cj,that pretty much covered all of my questions in one post.I'm still going to try and get my hands on a few for the tank anyways.

Good Luck, experimenting is what makes this hobby so much fun.

With the rising popularity of cool water fisheries [SMB, YP, WE, HSB] I would like to experiment to find the perfect combination of forage for fish with limited gape.

Can you tell us more about the OSF - maximum size, fecundity, etc? I want to start over someday to create a better fishery overall including minnow species Bill and Travis have discussed, smaller shiner species, and need an alternative sunfish species to complement the RES population.

I like the longear myself and have had a few in tanks. I put them in my pond and actually caught each of them once. They have now probably been eaten by a LMB, but then again maybe they were lucky.

I guess if I happen to catch them again some day I will know. As there are only 2 in my pond. I have thought of adding more, but may wait and try that with a different pond a few years down the road.

Would be neat to see how large one could get in a pond and how they take to feed.

OSS reach a max size of about 6.5" with 4" being more common. They are small sunfish and thus don't produce as much eggs as a BG would. They are capable of spawning multiple times in a year like BG. They are adapted to sub par habitat. In natural conditions they are found in muddy, vegetated backwaters where there is minimal competition with larger Lepomis species.

In my opinion, the best sunfish species to use in a cool water pond fishery as both forage and game fish is the redbreast sunfish RBS or the longear sunfish LES.

Travis, please provide a summary of the size and spawning capabilities of the RBS and LES and why you feel they are better suited...I promise I'll save it to my notes this time.

Pumpkinseed Sunfish are a great fish for northern ponds where you need forage for fish with a limited gape. They eat snails and clams like redear sunfish, but they don't get as big. Also, they don't have the reproductive capacity of the bluegill which can completely overrun a smallmouth pond.

Just checked research - says PS females lay 1,600-2,500 eggs - then another source says up to 15,000. Not sure if they are multiple spawners. BG can lay up to 80,000 and are multiple spawners. Those details suggest that PS should serve as a perfect panfish species for northern ponds, including those with management performed by limited gape predator species [YP, HSB, SMB, WE, BCP]. However, Dr Dave Willis has reported high density, stunted populations of PS in fisheries managed by SMB. My confusion is obvious...Dave can you shed any light on this?

I'll offer my 2 cent opinion, from observations in my trout pond which has heavy GSH population and not very heavy PKS pop. is that GSH help control the PKS's from over populating by being an aggressive consumer of fry.
This works well in my pond as the trout have plenty of forage, both PS & GSH while consuming very little trout pellets.

Of course with variables in water PH, temps. and long frigid winters make it hard to say this will work in other ponds.
The best scientific answer is "it all depends".

I commonly see PS stunt in ponds where they are not properly managed by LMB. Every pond is unique though, like AP's pond.

RBS and LES have similar fecundity of about 8,000-20,000 eggs. They spawn once per year. The RBS maxes out at about 11" with 8" being big and 6" being typical. LES have a few very distinct subspecies, some even split them into separate species. The northern subspecies gets larger, max size is about 9" with 7" being large and 5" being typical.

I like RBS because in nature, they are commonly found in the same habitat as SMB. If you are fishing a SMB river and you switch to a smaller bait, you'll likely catch RBS in the east and LES in the Midwest. RBS are not as rounded as BG, meaning a smaller mouthed fish can feed on them. RBS can still attain a quality size with 1 pound fish not unheard of.

Thanks Travis. Is a LES more fusiform than a BG, too?

PS have been shown to stunt and likely stunting will not be controlled by normal numbers of small mouthed predators (SMB , YP , HSB). Of course that depends on the BOW and the species populations.

I do think PS are an under used species for pond owners. I would put PS ahead of (not as apt to stunt) both BG and GSF. The use of forage/predators like GShiners which have been shown to be egg and fry eating could help in that regard.


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=156359&page=1 PS traits – Willis , Cody , West and others with studies

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181958&page=1 PS Willis and most of the rest of us

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post199423 PS and SMB + other species Willis , Cody , and the rest of us

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post242440 PS with Wills (this may be the one you want to start with) and the crew

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=260475&page=1 PS long thread by AP , Willis and the crew – great pics






http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post296225 PS reproduction Willis , Cody and others

Good info Eric.

From what I am told up here in WNY, PS and BG have roughly the same reproductive rates. Not sure if the BG are native varieties and reproduce at lower rates, or if it is environmental conditions. I love PS as they are a beautiful fish, and robust fighters.

If you want the pumpkinseed STRICTLY as forage, is there a problem with them stunting? I would think that having an entire population of fish that are small enough to be eaten by your smallies would be a good thing. Still learning here.

PS like BG get to big for the avg SMB gape size. This is due to their sunfish shape and dorsal spines. PS do stunt but not as bad as BG.It may work but it can also not work. A better approach for SMB would be GShiners.

LES are more rounded like a BG as compared to the RBS.