Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose CNBG

I feel stupid asking this, what is this difference between a standard BG and a CNBG? I stocked 100 1"CNBG with "assuming" they were regular gills. You know what they say about assuming.

I have always wondered, who are "they" anyways?

Lets see what others have to say about this.
Double check that they were CNBG. Where did you buy them???
True or pure strain CNBG is copper nose bluegill that is adapted to southern climate and it is very very doubtful they will survive the Indiana winters especially as they get older and become more vulnerable to cold temps. You probably won't know for sure if they were CNBG until they mature and get the characteristic copper colored marking on the forehead. IMO if you truly received CNBG you wasted your money. Are you positive they were not hybrid bluegill HBG??
For some more information about CNBG see this from the archives and the part about coppernose:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482

See below for Eric's very good comparison of BG vs CNBG.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=66840&page=1

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.ph...true#Post279613


From PB mag. - order it now.

THE CUTTING EDGE – SCIENCE REVIEW
By Eric West


Coppernose Bluegill vs. Regular Bluegill – which one for you?


A question we often get on the Pond Boss Forum is should I stock Regular Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus or Coppernose Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus mystacalis also previously classified and referred to as Lepomis m. purpurescens . To answer that question we should look at the traits of both and use the one that will work best for the particular goals for the water in question. As we all know traits come from genetics. So what is the difference in the genetics of Coppernose vs. Regular Bluegill? Well it started a long time ago and it took a long time to get there. Here is the basic story. Millions of years ago peninsular Florida was, like it is today, connected to the mainland. Bluegill were present all over the eastern US. Sea level rose and peninsular Florida was cut off by the sea from the mainland creating two separate populations. Bluegill on both the mainland and on the peninsula continued to evolve separately each influenced by local conditions with a divergence time of roughly 2.3 million years. After a few million years of this separate path sea level fell and the two land masses were connected again. However the two bluegill sub-species were now a little different genetically. The rivers were connected and the two subspecies migrated and integrated in a zone along the deep southeast where the two sub-species mixed. If this sounds familiar it should – it’s the same story as the Florida Largemouth Bass and the Northern Largemouth Bass where the divergence time between Northern (M. salmoides) and Florida (M. floridanus) bass is approximately 2.8 million years. If you know one story you should have a fairly good idea of outcome of the other. Surely as a pond owner you have heard the bass story. Florida Bass get bigger under the proper circumstance and do not due well in cold climates. Yes Bluegill have a similar story.

Coppernose Bluegill get bigger under the right circumstance but do not flourish in colder climates. In fact Coppernose are susceptible to poor results and substantial winter kill in northern US regions as are Florida Largemouth Bass. So how do you tell Coppernose and Regular Bluegill apart. Take a look at the pictures included. The Coppernose has a copper band across its head/nose in adult males, has fewer and wider vertical bars, has orangish/red fin margins and tail coloration , 12 anal fin rays and often light/white fin edges most visible when young. The Regular Bluegill has 11 anal fin rays and none of the other traits mentioned.

So how do they compare? Here are some points from a study on the subject titled Performance Comparison between Coppernose and Native Texas Bluegill Populations by John A. Prentice and J. Warren Schlechte in the 2000 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 54 at pgs 196-206 looking at growth (size at age) , survival and catchability.

Coppernose Bluegill were significantly larger than Native Bluegill in all scenarios tested with the largest observed difference being 19.2 mm total length (.756 inch) and 33.5 grams ( 1.18 ounces) over 2 years. At 3 years there was a 16 mm (.63 inch) difference on average and at 4 years 24 mm (.945 inch). With other fish species present there was no difference in angling vulnerability between the types. Spawning activity of the brooders began at the same time (last week of Feb in 1995 and first week of March in 1997) and produced the same size offspring for tagging at the same time each year ( mid-April) in what appeared to be similar numbers. Survival of young of the year Coppernose was substantially greater than for Native Bluegill.

Before you draw to many conclusions note this was in Texas where the weather is close to that of the Coppernose’s native range. That is a critical key to success with Coppernose. While there is an often cited study titled Cold Tolerance in Two Subspecies of Bluegill by , A. J. Sonski , K. E. Kulzer , and J. A. Prentice, in the 1988 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 42 at pgs 120-127 , that states Coppernose and Native Bluegill have similar cold tolerances the key is the test was done on bluegill all from the same area (Texas). Its purpose was to determine if Coppernose could survive the Texas climate. There is substantial observed and anecdotal evidence that Coppernose do not do well in cold climates (roughly north of the north line of Arkansas/Tennessee extended) . In the far northern US Coppernose become subject to high winterkill rates. This would be consistent with their similar relationship to Florida Largemouth Bass which have repeatedly been tested to do poorly and die in cold climates. The study first cited above was also in ponds with no supplemental feeding. Reported scientific evidence is substantial that in ponds the most common cause of reduced growth is a shortage of food. It is not known how much, if any, of the early growth difference between the two sub-species was due to limited forage. The two sub species will integrate (inter-breed) with the offspring exhibiting mixed traits and no apparent negatives but there is very little published data on them.

So the answer to the question should I stock Coppernose Bluegill or Regular (native) Bluegill or both is – it depends. Your location (climate) and your goals are key factors. If you are in the Deep South or the Southwest (including Southern California) and not at high elevation (Appalachian, Rocky or Sierra Mountains) Coppernose should be considered. In short is your temperature profile similar to those areas? To some extent management practices and the existing bluegill population, if any, are also possible factors. Whichever type you choose keep in mind that the most important factor to growing nice bluegill is to be sure they have enough food to eat and not to much competition.

If they are in fact CNBG, they probably won't survive our winters, at least the one batch that I am familiar with didn't. I know of some in Tennessee that are apparently doing well, but that's as far north as I have personally heard of. I certainly believe that there are circumstances that might permit their survival further north, but I would wonder if any benefit of having them would be realized in those cases.

The fish truck was from Arkansas. They had CNBG and HBG listed seperately. It looks like I wasted 100 CNBG and a few dollars if they are truly the CNBG strain. Hopefully my 4-5" LMB can atleast get a meal from them. My 1 acre pond will be done filling in approximately 30 days. I will commence with the rest of my stocking in early September to end up with a 10-1 LMB to panfish ratio, and get my BG and RES from where I got my FHM's, and few fish when I had about 1/3 surface water.
On a side note, I began subscribing to "Pond Boss Mag" and am on my second issue. My buddies enjoy it too. But I am having a little trouble with the "I subscribe" icon.

You mean that one?

is aylett va to far north for cnbg i have a 13 to 18 acre sand pit that has had treadfin shad since 2003 when i bought it.the pond froze so hard that deer walked on it.when the ice melted there was sevaral hundred floaters but they came back strong in the summer. the pond is fed by underground streams. there is probably not 20 acres of watershed.the depth is about 10 to 12 deep shaped like a big bowl and the pond is super fertile.the pond will flood sometimes 2004 and twice in 2011 but will usually stay at about 15 ac. i need to put more forage fish in this pond.
.

kenc:

CNBG might work. But, first off, what are the goals for the pond, and why do you think you need to add more forage to it?

there are too many large bass.they have become hook shy and my smaller bass have taking a beating. we have taken out 800 croppie this year and hope to double this total by the end of the year. i want to have a fishery so my grandkids can catch large numbers of bg and bass.the croppie are not stunted but are eating my small bg and bass fry. i had a good population of yp until droughts of past 2 years shrunk pond in summer but i only caught 4 this year. most of the bg are 8 inches or longer so i would like to build up the yp and bg.

there are too many large bass.they have become hook shy and my smaller bass have taking a beating. we have taken out 800 croppie this year and hope to double this total by the end of the year. i want to have a fishery so my grandkids can catch large numbers of bg and bass.the croppie are not stunted but are eating my small bg and bass fry. i had a good population of yp until droughts of past 2 years shrunk pond in summer but i only caught 4 this year. most of the bg are 8 inches or longer so i would like to build up the yp and bg.

I think you are probably a just little too far north and west for CNBG. You are certainly on the border. They might do OK, but they also might not. If you were 50 miles east, and or 50 miles south, you might have a better chance.

With that said -- give them a try. They aren't very expensive. They might do well.

Travis (CJBS) might have a better idea. He is just north of you. I'm a little more than 100 miles northwest of you in the mountains, and I don't believe they would work for me.

CNBG may survive where you are with the specific attributes of your pond. However, I doubt they will be much of an advantage to stocking them over northern BG. If threadfin shad can survive, that's a great indicator CNBG would be OK. Are you sure they are threadfin and not gizzard shad?

Your pond sounds very interesting... Any photos?

they are threadfin. i have caught many with a cast net.i have photos but am not able to download yet maybe my son can teach me how.there are several speices of fish in pond. i have caught 3 fiiers this year after last year flood.i had not caught one in 30 years.i caught 3 small warmouth 3 years ago but none since.pond is usually so green you can only see a few inches or less but have not had a fish kill yet.the pond is going down fast. only started using computer last few months so i am pretty lame at it.thanks for the info

Thanks esshup! Just noticed this morning.

CNBG lethal lower temp is lower (colder) than Tshad but not by a lot. However that is not the question. The question is will they reach their potential or close. I would not stock just CNBG in a location that far north. I might mix some in with BG to see the results.

i have quite a few 8 inch or larger bg already i miss catching cnbg as there are sevaral in millponds in southern va. i would hope that the round shape would be harder to eat.i have a picture of a 12 inch bg that caught and will try to get my son to post.i have a small forage pond that i will drain and put 5inch cnbg next spring if my cancer stays in remission and put them in pond in fall. any idea how many to stock in maybe a 1 tenth acre pond 14 deep at dam most of forage pond is 2 feet or less great for ps gs and gams.i only fish these ponds thus the desire for cnbg.

Catmando you live in a beautiful place .i used to stay at franklin until i bought the farm at aylett.a friend had a cabin at 4400 feet 4 miles up a logging road saw many deer some bear and too many rattlesnakes.wva is my favorite state.

I stocked cnbg in my pond. Is Mid Missouri too far north?

Jwwann, if you read ewest's post above you will find your answer.

I wonder why the fish truck from Arkansas Is selling cnbg to us.

To make money off unsuspecting pond owners...

There is a question of how much adaptation in Ark CNBG has taken place in 20 or so generations. They are more cold tolerant than those from south Ala or Fla but how much is unknown.

They would likely say that their CNBG would be ok 60 miles N of their hatcheries. I am not so sure about that however.

That would be an interesting lab experiment. In Florida, 20 generations could happen pretty quickly. The further North they "traveled", the generations could take more time. I wonder if they could adapt that quickly. However, I doubt it.

Jwwann, I wonder if they take such a long route, they stopped at more southern locations on their sales routes? All I can say now is the old saying "buyer beware."

It was the only type bluegill they had. They are eating out of my hand. I hate to see them die off. Guess only time will tell.