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I was going to add this to my previous post (Cage to Cage transfer: crappie 4-25-12) but thought it might benefit others as a new topic.

April 7 - Picked up 25 black crappie (BCP) fingerlings from the hatchery

April 18 - BCP started taking freeze dried mealworms.

April 18 - May 19 - started tossing in pellets, Aquamax 5D05, but they were not interested. Started thinking that perhaps BCP are sight/texture feeders and decided to try and make the pellets look like mealworms. By May 19th, the BCP were feeding aggressively on "mealworm" pellets. Here is how I make mealworm pellets.

After referencing a previous PondBoss article on artificial feeds and feeding, I settled on using a mixture of 20 grams of pellets with 13 grams of water. The pellets and water are placed in a small plastic bottle and shaken for 1-2 minutes. The pellet/gravy mixture is then poured out onto a plate, leveled out and left to sit for 2 hours so the pellets can absorb all the water.
After 2 hours I make a pellet pie crust by placing a plastic sandwich bag over the mixture and rolling it out with a wooden rolling pin. The pellet crust is maybe 1/16" thick.
Next I take a dough/pastry scraper and slice the crust into 1/8" wide by 1/2 to 3/4" long strips....my mealworm pellets. The whole rolling/cutting process takes less than 10 minutes.

Due to my work schedule, the fish get one feeding per day during the week. On weekends, I double up.

July 4th - transferred the BCP to a new cage. Sampled 6 fish.
Average weight 39 grams. Length 5-6". I had one runt in the net, 2-2.5 inches. No mortality from the original 25 !
With some fish weights in hand I sat down to figure out how I'm doing on my feed amount. Aquamax does not list a feed chart for black crappie so I deferred to the one for yellow perch. Based on this, my calculations show that I need to increase my daily weekday rate from 20 to ~30 grams/day.
For those folks that read this, does anyone know if a relative weight table exists for BCP ?


As this is my first attempt at cage raising BCP on pellets, I'm open to all comments/advice.

Thanks

- Russ

** mental note to self. Pick up another pastry scraper and rolling pin before making this years holiday pies.

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Good job Russ... Hopefully they'll completely revert to a minimum of hydrated pellets. I bet if you starve them for a bit, they'll be more likely to do the switch. Keep us posted on your progress!

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Russ,

That sounds like a great idea. We have some Relative Weight Charts here in the archives. Chart 1 of 3 has black crappie. Unfortunately, I don't think it will do you any good for a little while. The charts are more for fish that people would be catching and not releasing.

Anyway, please keep us informed. I really like the approach. I've tried a number of different kinds of fish in cages that just weren't interested in pellets.

Regards,
Ken


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i love crappie, and considered them for my aquaponics setup, but everything i found said they were kind of hard to get on pellets..
good to see someone trying!
i'll be looking for updates, thanks!

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Believe it or not I knew a couple that ran a trout farm in Wisconsin that brought some in and threw pellets at them along with trout in another tank. They said they got them to feed on pellets as good as the trout.

I got a few hundred of them (3 to 4 inches) but unfortunately most of them died later due to fungal issues. They were hauled in the same tanks as 1 to 2 lb. trout (probably got all beat up by the trout slushing around), and one of the trout club people that helped scoop them out did a dumb amateur thing: He filled a net with them crushing and injuring most of them. It was no wonder they had fungal issues.

I did have some feeding in a cage though.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Good information for training finicky fish. Try softening some pellets, finger rolling some of them to squeeze out air and they will sink esp if pellet is oval shaped. Fish will likely take them since flavor and texture are similar. Once they are taking sinking pellets they will quickly rise to floating pellets. Keep us updated.


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Thanks for the chart info Cat!

Bill, following your response my next step will be to eliminate the freeze dried mealworms entirely while introducing moistened pellets to the mix, a little at a time.

A comment about the mealworm recipe noted above. Following that recipe results in the floating pellets changing to sinkers. With both my pond water (especially during the a.m. feeding before sun up)and the pellets being dark in color, I cannot tell how much of the feed is consumed once it sinks 8-10" below the surface. I've tried letting the mealworm pellets dry for a day but they still sink. To limit wasted feed, I now use a 10' piece of 3/4" PVC pipe, capped at one end. I load the tube with feed and like a cement mixer, rotate the PVC pipe while dropping a few bits of feed at a time.

Lastly, Keith I will post updates to this thread but following the creed of "reduce stress" and Cecil's mention of his netting disaster I will probably not have another update till September, when I anticipate moving the crappie to a clean cage.

Thanks

- Russ

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Russ - hopefully you can post when you see the crappie taking some sort of pellets from the surface.


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An update. The first week of October I did a cage swap and sampled the black crappies. Based on a total count, the initial stocking was 32 fingerlings (3"-4"), not the 25 I thought. To date, I have not seen any dead fish, either floaters or ones that died and sank to the bottom of the cage.

During the cage swap, I culled any fish under 6" which totaled 17. Of the 15 keepers, I sampled 5 fish. Average weight 75 grams (58, 73, 89, 68 and 89). Average length 7", nothing over 7.25". Of the 17 that were culled, most averaged 5-6" with a few runts still 3-4".

As stated in the initial post, I started feeding with Aquamax 5D05 pellets, first as "mealworm" pellets, switching to Aquamax whole pellets, 5D06, in late August. The reason for the switch in pellet size was twofold. (1) My supplier was out of 5D05 and (2) at that point in time I was down to ~7 lbs of the 5D05 but wanted to save it for my RBT this Fall. From this and previous cage raising trials involving YP, BG and RBT, I've decided that any future attempts at cage raising fish (starting with fingerlings) will be done using Aquamax 5D04 pellets for the simple reason that moistened small pellets can be formed into larger pellets as the fish grow. For the few fish I raise, I don't come close to using 50lbs of feed / growing season.

Russ

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Russ - Interesting information about cage rasing some crappie. Very good job of getting all 32 to survive all summer. I think the runts maybe survied on zooplankton and did not eat pellets??.


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Bill,

I respectfully disagree that pinching the pellets removes air which makes them sink. IMHO pinching them makes them more dense and therefore more likely to sink.

Not a big deal but just thought I'd mention it.

And don't get upset. You're still Dr. Perca!


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Well it'd be more dense because te air is removed wouldn't it lol


I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.

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Guys one option is moist pellets. Last I checked ( a while back) you could get BioDiet that was moist pellets with good qualities for predator fish. LMB have been shown to do well on it. I think it may be trout food.
















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I'd be interested to hear opinions on this question.

Focusing solely on BCP, would feeding a smaller pellet (the 5D04 vs. 5D05) have helped the runts achieve better growth?

I ventured into this experiment with limited expectations, expecting high mortality with few to none accepting pellets. Looking back now I wonder if feeding a smaller pellet might of increased my chances at all of the fish eventually accepting artificial feed.

BTW, the remaining crappies are still taking pellets.

- Russ

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I have used biodiet to pellet train and feed fish. It is expensive and shipping is about as much as the pellets. I found that for small quantities softening AquaMax or other high protein food works as good as biodiet. A second benefit of softening pellets is one can make all sizes of larger pellets from small pellets which you cannot do with Biodiet. Biggest negative to softening pellets is the are not stable for very long and will mold in several days.

Cecil says:"" I respectfully disagree that pinching the pellets removes air which makes them sink. IMHO pinching them makes them more dense and therefore more likely to sink. Not a big deal but just thought I'd mention it. And don't get upset. You're still Dr. Perca!""

Okay CB1 you "raised the hair on the back of my neck". I disagree that pinching soft pellets does not remove air from the pellets. I say this because the "pellet people" tell me that the extrusion process adds air to the pellets which makes them float. I agree with bgkiller that pinching the soft pellets makes them more dense because it pushes out the air from the pellet. CB1 has your wife been picking on you again which is why you are picking on me today?


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My wife never picks on me Bill. I was just having a healthy disagreement with you on a scientific level. When I bring things up like this it's more for discussion.

Makes sense air is added to the pellets during the extrusion process but I'm skeptical a pinch would remove it.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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As I re-read this topic, I asked myself "why crappie in small ponds?"

In the springtime, in a big public lake, I love catching several meals worth of crappies. But, in my ponds, I really have to question this.

Crappie are sure fun to catch. But, even at 12-14 inches, they seem to have less edible flesh compared to 9-inch bluegill or redear sunfish. The bluegill and RES are just as fiesty when catching them. When cooking any of the three, I can't tell the difference -- whether fried, broiled, baked ...

Maybe it is just my old age and lack of sensory perception.

I really wish I didn't have them in my one pond that has them. They just don't add anything that I can confirm. Worst, I'm afraid they attack my early spawning of desireable species.

Just my crazy old ideas.

Ken

One more thought. Each time I pick up fish, it seems there are people buying crappie for their ponds. These crappie are nearly always less than 3-inches, and are going into mature ponds with mature bass. These people spend a forutune on the crappie. Most of these crappie are probably eaten within a few hours of being stocked.


Last edited by catmandoo; 11/02/12 05:24 PM. Reason: Stocking

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CB1 - If your wife doesn't pick on you IMO she should once in awhile so you wouldn't be so contankerous here - LOL LOL. Yes I know your comments were for discussion. If you notice closely when one rolls or pinches the pellets, they get very slighly smaller. I assmue that compaction process has to squeeze out something and it is likely very small amount of air. What else would it be if the pellet or anything else is compacted? Do you think the pellets absorb a tiny amount of air as they swell when they are soaking??

Ken- I agree with your thoughtful crappie pond stocking comments in all ways. Especially in light of the risk that crappie pose to a small pond.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/02/12 09:10 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
CB1 - If your wife doesn't pick on you IMO she should once in awhile so you wouldn't be so contankerous here - LOL LOL.


Not being "contankerous" [sic] Bill. I'm sorry it appeared that way. blush I would have just P.M'd you my thoughts but ya don't read the P.M's very often! grin And I think this is something that would be interesting to debate.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Yes I know your comments were for discussion. If you notice closely when one rolls or pinches the pellets, they get very slighly smaller.


Yes, which makes them denser! grin You're increasing the mass per volume by squeezing it. You can easily take something that has a specific gravity lower than water, and by compressing it enough you can make it have a higher specific gravity than water, therefore you can make it sink.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I assmue that compaction process has to squeeze out something and it is likely very small amount of air.


Perhaps but my opinion is making the pellet denser has more of an effect.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
What else would it be if the pellet or anything else is compacted?


See above response.

Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Do you think the pellets absorb a tiny amount of air as they swell when they are soaking??


My WAG would be some but not a significant amount as oxygen/air would only be in ppm's in water at the most.





Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 11/03/12 10:21 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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CB1 'contankerous' was the first adjective that came to mind for some of your historical 'debateful' comments on the forum. We should take no offense or defense. I am now reading PMs on a regular basis so you can use that as communication. I still want to know what you think leaves the hydrated pellet as it is squeezed to make it more dense. Something has to happen internally during compaction to allow it to sink. On close examination, sinking pellets are quite dense compared to floating pellets. I think the pressure used during pellet extrusion makes a difference in how much air is in the pellet. From Wikipedia: Adjusting parameters such as temperature and pressure enables the manufacturers to make pellets that suit different fish farming methods, for example feeds that float or sink slowly and feeds suited to recirculation systems."

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/03/12 08:16 PM.

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As I said Bill I believe squeezing the pellet makes it more dense. Not sure why something has to "leave" the pellet.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Try this definition for dense: tightly packed so close together that there is not much space of room or open space. The question becomes what is in the open spaces of a pellet to allow for compaction / squeezing? As I understand pellet manufacture, the extruder compresses the wet ingredients and uses pressure to force it through holes or tubes and when the pellets leave the extruder they expand. I assume when they expand they absorb air which makes them float. I will try to check if this is correct. I have looked at some AM600 under the microscope when I was having trouble with a batch of pellets falling apart more than usual and the pellets had lots of tiny air spaces in them. Dr Mark Griffin said plant was having extruder problems and they were getting too much air into the pellets. I will see if I can find those pictures and send you one.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/03/12 09:06 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
As I said Bill I believe squeezing the pellet makes it more dense. Not sure why something has to "leave" the pellet.


I would think if your squeezing something that is soft and pourus anything inside the object (in this case air) would be removed..

Last edited by Bluegillerkiller; 11/03/12 10:31 PM.

I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

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Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
As I said Bill I believe squeezing the pellet makes it more dense. Not sure why something has to "leave" the pellet.


I would think if your squeezing something that is soft and pourus anything inside the object (in this case air) would be removed..


I don't discount that possibility, just skeptical.

If anyone has some hydrated pellets perhaps squeezing them under water will tell us if any or much trapped air escapes? That is, one would see air bubbles rising to the surface of the water?


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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2.2.3 Pelleting and extrusion

Pelleting, through compression, produces a dense pellet that sinks rapidly in water. Extrusion is a process through which the feed material is moistened, precooked, expanded, extruded and dried, producing a low-density feed particle which floats in water. Pelleting is less expensive and generally costs 10 to 12 percent less than extruded fish feeds. However, extruded or floating feeds are very popular with catfish farmers.

Pelleting involves the use of moisture, heat, and pressure to agglomerate ingredients into larger homogenous particles. Steam or hot water added to the ground feed mixture (mash) during pelleting gelatinizes starch, which aids in binding ingredients. Generally, an amount of steam is added to the mash to increase its moisture content to approximately 16 percent and temperature to about 85 C before passing through the pellet die; however, ingredient composition will influence these conditions. The moisture must be removed by proper cooling and ventilation immediately after the pellets leave the pelleting apparatus.

Pellet quality refers to resistance to crumbling and water stability. The amounts of fat, fibre, or starch in the formula can influence quality of the pelleted feed. Some ingredients, because of chemical or physical properties, do not have desirable pelleting quality and can be used only in limited quantity in pelleted feeds.

Additives that serve primarily as pelleting aids are frequently used in fish feed formulas to reduce fines and increase water stability, although research in fish feed technology has demonstrated that high-quality fish feeds can be made without binding materials by following good pelleting procedures. However, use of compounds such as hemicellulose and cellulose derivatives, lignosulphonates, bentonites, and others does allow the processor greater variation in ingredient selection and processing conditions to produce pellets of satisfactory quality.

Extrusion requires higher levels of moisture, heat, and pressure than pelleting. Usually, the mixture of finely ground ingredients is conditioned with steam or water and may be precooked before entering the extruder. The mash, which contains around 25 percent moisture, is compacted and heated to 135 to 175 C under high pressure. As the material is squeezed through die holes at the end of the extruder barrel, part of the water in the superheated dough immediately vaporizes and causes expansion. The low-density extruded particles contain more water than pellets and require more drying. Heat-sensitive vitamins are usually added topically after extrusion and drying. Extruded feeds are more firmly bound due to the almost complete gelatinization of the starch and result in less fines than pellets.

Extruded or expanded fish feeds have two definite advantages over pelleted feeds: the particles float and are more resistant to disintegration in water, and a floating feed allows the fish culturist to observe the condition of the fish and the amount of food consumed. A large percentage of the catfish farmers in the United States use expanded feeds.


Source: FAO

Pretty sure ya got air in floating feed's. If it is being expanded, then the water is vaporized out, something has to take it's place.

Density



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