Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Feeding Purina Feed Choice for Bream & HSB

For three years, I have been feeding Purina Game Chow with CC getting most of it.

This year I hope to have CC numbers low enough and feed trained BG numbers high enough for the BG to be getting a significant (most, if I'm very lucky) part of the feed. And I will be stocking HSB, hopefully as soon as this coming Fall.

Accept the fact that I will be sticking with Purina feed for several socio-economic reasons (mill is 1.5 miles away, major and minor partners in the mill are my neighbors, wife goes there every week for horse feed and will pick up my fish chow for me). Which Purina feed would be best for the growth and health of BG, HSB, and (for an experiment) RES? I am thinking Aquamax Carnivore, which thread research here shows to be 40 or 41% protein. IIRC it comes in 400, 500 or 600, which are increasing pellet sizes. Which size would be optimum for BG? I can up the size when the HSB go in of that works out better for them, and if it's smaller than optimum for the CC, too bad.

Theo, I'm no expert on fish nutrition but I have been using Aquamax for my HBG because several hatcheries highly recommended the high protein. I started with the 100 when the fish were stocked at about 1 inch long. This is a sinking food. Then I moved to the 300 and eventually the 500. I still use the 500 for fish up to 10". I've noticed that the smaller 3 to 4 inch fish will sometimes spit the 500 out so it appears to be on the edge for them. I can't find anything on the Purina site telling which foods float and which ones sink which is odd. But I think the powder, the 100, and maybe the 200 are sinkers. The rest are floaters. The mill would no doubt be able to verify. I don't know how it compares to other brands but I noticed that the Purina floating stuff really floats, it will float for 24 hours or more. I've also used the game fish food and I've noticed that my fish seem to like the taste/smell of the aquamax better. I can put aquamax in the pond and all the fish for 50 feet around will get turned on. Don't know if they smell it or what.

Bruce may be able to provide some input as to what he found as a good protein content for his adventures of growing HSB.

Theo I think Aquamax will work okay for HSB and bgill. I used it to grow 27" HSB. However Aquamax has too much filler and chicken feathers for my "taste". The tiny silver flecks in Aquamax carnivoir pellets are caused by chicken feather meal. Chicken feather meals are added to boost protein levels but it is not digestable by fish! Go figure. If you are interested in a little better quality fish food, then contact John Bechtel Fredricktown Aquaculture Mansfield OH 440-892-2722. He uses and sells Silver Cup - the best fish food made. If you are producing fish that require quality protein for maximum growth and to meet schedule deadlines then Silver Cup is the food of choice. I wish I was closer to him I would use Silver Cup food. He may have some types with protein content up to 45%+. When feeding smaller fish, the general rule is to use a pellet size that is as big as the fish's eye diameter.

How far are you from Bechtol? I may take a trip over there this summer and stop by for a visit.

POSTSCRIPT - Aquamax mfg by Purina Mills is very adequate for just about all fish in ponds. Aquamax is made in two varieties Carnivoir - blue bag for bass yellow perch, trout, & bgill love it, and Omnivoir - green bag for Catfish, talipia, bgill.

Theo, as you well know – whenever Bill Cody speaks – we better listen….!

Silver cup is not available from any of our suppliers, that I know of, in our area.

We mix Aquamax 500 and 600 and have fed for more than 4 years with excellent results.
AQMX 400 would be a good addition to the mix if you stock fingerling HSB, which I do not recommend stocking in an existing pond with adult LMB.

I highly recommend this product - unless Silver Cup is available of course………

0ur BG and HSB are fat and happy – along with CC that we are removing.

George Glazener

Thanks guys, for the replies.

Chicken feathers. I am not really surprised. Much of the "raw protein %" that can be seen on the tags of large mammal feed is just chicken, well, manure.

OTOH I still eat Hormel Chili 30 years after first reading what all could be found in it.

Purina's web info on their fish food is rather disappointing right now. IIRC it has been disappointing to other pondmeisters in the past.

I think I will see if my local mill can get Silver Cup (have never seen it in feed/farm stores nearby, but the mill may have to order Aquamax if I go with that, so maybe they can order Silver Cup). If not, I'm think Aquamax Carnivore in the 400-500 range. I can break up small volumes for small fingerlings for special purposes. When I stock HSB they will have to be bigger ones (10" -12" desired) because of the existing bass population.

Bill, I am about 53 miles due South of Mansfield via routes 13 (to Mt. Vernon), 661 (to Granville), and 37 (last 2 miles). If you have some strange desire to add 2 hours to your drive when you go to Mansfield, let me know the date. I would be tickled to meet you, show you my pond and future pond sites, and pick your brain of all that I am doing wrong.

If it's any consolation I use Purina Aquamax for my fish as it's not economical to get Silver Cup. I'd have to drive 3 to 5 hours round trip to pick it up every few months. Can't justify that.

Right now all I have to do is call my local feed mill and they will have whatever Aquamax size and grade I want within a few days.

Silver Cup is the best, but not sure if it's that much better to justify the trouble for a recreational pond grower if a supplier is not in your area.

Where is Bruce on this topic? It seems that I protrayed a bad image of Aquamax Carnivore diet. Sorry for scarring the readers . As I mentioned earlier I have used Purina trout chow and now Aquamax carnivore for YEARS. I STILL use it when I have a hard time getting what I think is a slightly better fish food. By better I mean something with slightly higher protein and a little less fat content. Aquamax seems to grow fish just fine. However I have had some fish raisers that are pretty particular tell me that Aquamax contains too much fat and it contributes to fatty livers & clogged arteries and shortens a fish's life expectancy. Although this is not proven information to my knowledge; just an occassional fish disection. I think a lot of fish growers just grow fish big enough for a market and don't care about life span.

Theo - How about me picking your brain about all you are doing correct? You should tell your wife that I said you should take her out to eat twice a year(spring and summer)and maybe a movie to Mansfield. Your wife will love you more for that kindness. While out get a bag or two each trip of Silver Cup from Bechtel. Maybe try Silver Cup next year (2007) after you lived with Aquamax for a feeding season.

I guarantee you that you will not be able to get Silver Cup through the local feed mill unless you order one bag directly from Utah. If you do that, you might as well drive down to Bechtel's and get a bag cause it will be cheaper once you pay the shipping. UPS shipping will cost more than the feed! Yes chicken feather meal adds protein so when lab analyses are performed the protein content is consistant with that on the bag label. This seems to be a common fish food mfg trick. Zeiglers out of Pennsylvania appear to do this chicken feather enhancement. I also notice a small amount of the "silver flecks" in Silver Cup food so it appears they also do it to some extent. All my skepticism is probably just academic. I will tell you one thing for sure, when you switch over to Aquamax carnivore you will notice an increase in feeding activity of the fish.

If I forgot anything I will be back later on this topic.

Thanks, Bill.

The Missus would probably love a trip to the big city to see a Movie. Is it true that some of them are in color nowadays?

Learning.

I was going to ask the same question myself. I wish I knew more about feed. I am actually in the process of deciding what to feed this year. My bluegill seem to adapt to everything I throw at them eventually, but I am worried just a little about the lifespan issue.

BTW, my HSB went wild on the Silver Cup for years, but seem to like the Aquamax 600 just as well, which is what I fed last year.

Here is some general info on feed.

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/7107322-121fs.pdf

Theo :

What type of info are you looking for ?

You have info on RES.

Here are several titles.

Effect of Diet and Strain on Growth and Performance in Hybrid Bluegills

Abstract.—Little is known about the diets and genetic strains that are optimal for the production of hybrids of bluegill Lepomis macrochirus. The objective of this study was to determine whether there are differences in feed, nitrogen and amino acid conversion, lipid deposition, liver lysine oxidation, and liver glycogen in two such hybrids ...fed five commercially available diets. The diets were formulated to the following minimum crude protein (CP)–fat ratios: 32/3, 38/8, 40/10, 42/16, and 45/20. Liver lysine oxidation and whole-body lipid deposition was not significantly different between strains. Consumption of the 42/16 diet resulted in increased growth, a better feed conversion (P < 0.05), and a better retention of specific amino acids than all other diets... Diet composition did not result in significant differences in liver lysine oxidation, liver glycogen, and lipid deposition, regardless of strain. These data demonstrate that genetic strain and diet have important impacts on bluegill production and that the most nutrient-dense diets do not necessarily lead to enhanced performance relative to diets of lower CP and fat.


Effects of Dietary Protein Concentration on Growth, Feed Efficiency, and Body Composition of Age-0 Striped Bass


Growth, Survival, and Body Composition of Largemouth Bass Fed Various Commercial Diets and Protein Concentrations

Evaluation of Practical Bluegill Diets with Varying Protein and Energy Levels

ewest - It is important to realize that most of these referenced studies used smaller sized fish. Reseach has shown that as fish reach larger sizes their nutrition requirements change somewhat similar to current theories for dogs and probably people. The vets always tell you that you are not supposed to feed dogs table scraps because it has way too much fat in it and it is unhealthy. What does that information tell you about most of our people food?

Yes Theo, color movies are all the rage now!

ewest:

I believe I have my answer - HSB do well on Aquamax, and BG should eat it no problem. If that's what I'm going to feed, that's what successfully feed-trained RES will have to learn to eat.

I'm sure the CC will continue to scarf up a lion's share.

Bill:

Amazing! What will Mr DeMille think of next?

Theo - Next is Ipods and Blackberries. Check them out you will be amazed again. Your daughter will coach you on this! Good news. I had one 11.5" redear eating Aquamax and it seemed to like it!

Theo and Bill :

At one source there were 360+- articles on formulated fish food. They cover all types of fish from CC to paddlefish to LMB to sunfish of many types and trout and baitfish. They cover protein %, lipids, carbs. etc. and results and bioenergetics and disease ie liver problems and many other side issues like sex reversal and drugs. A number of them list specific feeds/brands/formulations. The question was what aspect of all this was Theo interested in checking. My reply was directed to info mgt. overload!!

This thread has me wondering, for the first time, exactly what goes into making fish food. What is the actual relationship between quick growth/conversion rate and shortened life span? Okay, it has a certain protien count and, as BC said, some have more and some less fat. Something has to bind it. But what goes into the making of that protien count and is that the most important factor?

Since I don't really know what really goes into making a hot dog, this probably isn't going to keep me away nights. And, I would give long odds that it is "by products"; certainly not top sirloin or chicken breast. Chicken skin is pretty fatty and is a no-no on a low cholesterol diet. I can identify corn and if the protien is almost all vegetable based then there shouldn't be a price difference between different types. The growth stuff that goes into raising chickens and fattening cows at feed lots would turn anybody into a vegeterian and I'm not a vegetarian.

I've chopped up chicken feathers and added them to some of my experimental catfish baits as a binding agent. I've never thought of grinding them for any reason. There can't be much beneficial protien in them.

DD:

I can't remember which comedian had a routine about finding out that hotdogs contained beef lips. This kinda grossed him out - he always thought beef lips were the sort of "beef by-product" that went into dog food.

Then he realized that there must be a part of a cow worse than beef lips that went into dog food.

Dave :

Do you realy want to know ?

In one study :
Ingredient
Casein + gelatin (4: 1 )
Fish meal
Defatted soybean meal
Broken rice
Dried layer waste (DLW)
Vegetable oil
Vitamin C
Vitamin mixtureb
Mineral mixturec
Cellulose
Proximate composition
Corrected crude protein
Crude fat
Crude fiber
Total ash
Nitrogen-free extract


Here are some others listed :

Menhaden Oils
Fish Meal with Meat-and-Bone Meal, Flash-Dried Poultry By-Product Meal, and Enzyme-Digested Poultry By-Product Meal
Animal By-Products
Plant-and-Krill-Based
Dried Waste Egg Product
Cottonseed Meal
Cod Liver Oil
Insoluble Ash
Hemoglobin Powder
Corn Gluten
Potato and Corn Meal
Purified Fatty Acids
Dietary Androgen-Estrogen Combinations

We use growth additives in cows so why not fish ?
This list is from several studies . I am not saying these are what are in any formulated commerical fish food but you might want to check.

I wonder what DLW means? Sounds ominous.

I was talking to a consultant from a huge IT company who had worked on a contract at a large poultry operation. While being shown around the operation, she saw one chicken fall over and die. When asked why, she was told that they were fed so many growth hormones that sometimes the results were lethal. She didn't ask about the ultimate disposition of the fatalities.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I'm skeptical of the use of growth hormones in beef and poultry. (Not saying what Dave said is untrue but he may have been BS'd) Why? Because in the aquaculture industry where farmers grow out fish for consumption it is strictly forbidden. The FDA will shut you done. No bones about it. They take it very seriously.

So why would they allow it in the beef and poultry business and not in aquaculture?

We raised chickens on the family five oclock farm when I was a kid. I remember some of them growing so fast their legs couldn't support the bodies and they fell over etc. It was not due to hormones. They had been bred to put on weight as fast as possible.

BTW, the use of antibiotics and chemicals are also strictly regulated in the aquaculture industry. Fish farmers that grow out fish for consumption have very few that they are allowed to use. If they do use something they are not allowed to use they will be shut down.

Here is my quick 2 cents. It is about money right? Cecil breifly mentioned this but no one else has. I mean you have a budget so I think the question is what is the best food for Theo is what is best for bluegill and now hybrids. They require two diff diets. Do you go with the Best ( silver cup?) but at what cost if lots of it is eaten by bluegill that may not require the higher protein, digestiability, etc.

Even when just talking about bluegill for example they will grow with 32% cheap food, most pondowners in GA use this. It is about $10-$12 /bag. The growth is much better with 36% 5.5 % fat, so I sell that it is $16. However the growth would be even better if they bought our trout chow that is 44% proteint and 18% fat but it cost $23/bag. One client does simply amazing the size of the bluegill numerous legit 1.5 lb and he says he has them over 3 lbs.

However no way no how would I tell someone to use this the diff in growth is not worth the diff in price especially if not feeding to satiation across the whole pond. I should state the most of my clients enjoy bluegill but mainly they are there to grow to put pounds on bass. I have a hard time talkking thme into spending the extra $4 on 36% smaller pellets size food vs. cheap catfish food. however I think for the all mighty dollar it is the best choice. Get my point?

On another note I'm in the process of hiring a grad from Auburn who is jsut finishing doctoral defense on fish nutrition. If he does accept the offer I will get him registered here and he can gee whiz you guys all day about this sutff.

First Theo has the info so he can compare and decide based on all the factors.

Second DLW is chicken litter waste as processed.

Third there are many aspects to aquaculture grow out and all don't deal with human food consumption. The growth additives part is true but was added to liven things up. Don't worry about it because as CB1 says the food part is regulated.

Once upon a time another "CB1" (in this case, it stood for Caustic Bastard the First) unrelated to our own CB1 told me:

"You know what that white stuff in DLW is?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
It's DLW too."

Cecil, wrt growth hormones in the cattle industry, I can't tell you what is actually industry standard because I'm just a little guy selling 2 or 3 head a year. But it is a "given fact" (as opposed to a proven fact) among virtually everyone I have known with cattle that growth hormones are used by the big operations. Perhaps that is old news and it is no longer allowed???

I do know that 20 years ago, growth hormones were SOP in raising steer pool beeves for competition.

Cecil, that's good to know that the fish we purchase and eat are carefully regulated as a food item. I'm impressed and appreciate the information.

What that really means to me is that the aquaculture industry, in the US, is either in its financial infancy or is embryonic. My history as a lobbyist (and bagman)on the state and federal level has left me jaded. Funny how $ can help an elected and/or appointed servant of the people help them understand a position.

The beef and poultry industry don't share that same level. I could quote quite a few examples but Lusk has said stay away from politics here so I'll stop at this point. Send a PM if you want those examples that implicate both the blue and the red.

Of interest is that a cattle feed lot about 10 miles from my place uses tilapia to clean up a "catch" pond downhill from the approximately 40 or so acre lot. Urine and manure runoff create an environmental nightmare for these places and they have to catch it somewhere to cut down on potential pollution to waterways. In the fall, at tilapia die off time, they seine the pond and sell the tilapia to be ground up for fertilizer. At least, I hope thats where they wind up.

Ground up fish are a good source of protein in .... add your favorite type of feed here. Predator fish really like the tilapia oil in the ground up processed feed. :p BTW what happens to all those tilapia in the waste ponds we heard about -- do they glow in the dark ? A new species -- orange glow-in-the dark waste eating nile perch. :p

Gentlemen,

I'll get back to you to find out if things have changed in the cattle and poultry industry or if indeed there is a double standard.

For the life of me I can't imagine it being forbidden in fish but O.K. in cattle and poultry. But of course as we all know the government doest stranger things and yes money talks.

Well I did a little digging. Apparently up to six different hormones are allowed in beef production and in dairy operations, but it's not allowed in poultry and pigs. I do know it's not allowed in fish but as elluded to early the hormones may be washing into ecosystems from feed lots.

Well shucks! The more I learn about government the more cynical I get. Definitely not looking out for us, and there are all kinds of inconsistencies depending apparently on how much money a lobby group has.


Beefing Up on Hormones

Many other hormones are used by farmers to raise their animals faster and more efficiently. Much of the controversy surrounds beef, since hormones are given to more than 90 percent of cows in the U.S. The FDA permits six hormones to be given to livestock. Both livestock and humans naturally produce three: estradiol, testosterone and progesterone. These hormones are also reproduced from plant hormones in the laboratory. Trenbolone acetate, melengestrol acetate and zeranol are synthetic hormones used on animals.

The FDA has concluded that the amount of hormone residue in our food is negligible compared to the amount that the body produces naturally. Nevertheless, two hormones–estradiol, a type of estrogen, and progesterone–are considered probable carcinogens by the National Toxicology Program at the National Institutes of Health. Estrogen has been linked with breast cancer in women and testosterone with prostate cancer in men, while progesterone has been found to increase the growth of ovarian, breast and uterine tumors.

When it comes to animals other than cows, the situation isn’t quite as grim. According to the FDA’s National Center for Veterinary Medicine, no hormones are approved as growth promoters for chickens or pigs (zeranol is approved for fed lambs). And while farmers also use another category of hormones called estro-synchronization products, designed to make animals give birth at the same time, these are approved only for sheep and cattle and, again, not for chickens and pigs.

Dave D. wrote: "My history as a lobbyist (and bagman)on the state and federal level...."

I knew there was some reason I felt like calling you "Guvnor" Davidson!

Sunil, my popularity varied in those days. Before the "contribution", my company was avidly sought. Afterwards, nobody seemed to recognize me.

It is economic also b/c aquaculture pails in comparision to cattle and poultry. Someone has to fit the bill to get things tested prior to gov't approval. In other words if a hormone is not tested to prove it is safe for human consumption it can't be used and that process is time consuming and pricey.

Has anyone had any experience with AQUAXCELL from Cargill http://www.cargillanimalnutrition.com/aquaculture/products/dc_can_aqua_products_aquaxfish.htm This should be readily available from the local feed store/mill that carries Cargill or Nutrena feeds. I have used some pellets from Freedom Feeds intermittently , http://www.freedomfeeds.com/ . They claim their feed makes the fish taste better than some other feeds. The local fish farm uses this in their indoor trout farm and sells it as well. Their trout does taste better than the "put and take fish" stocked in Ohio lakes by the DNR. It is a little out of my way to get it so I do not use it all the time. One observation is that it seems to break down considerably faster than Gamefish Chow and some of it sinks. I am feeding it to my tilapia because it was the only pellet readily available small enough.

Hey Ryan...good to hear from ya. Without veering too far off topic, how has your geothermal heating bill stacked up?

Brettski
I'm still very happy. I had a leak a couple of months back in the closed loop. Luckily it was in the basement not underground or in the pond. The installer warranty covered it. It was a pretty easy fix. The leak developed at a bad glue job at an elbow just before the line goes throught the basement wall. It is in a cramped spot. The leak was very small. I still wish I would have gone with the pump and dump which would help keep the pond full and allow me to add aeration. Entire house electric bill runs from $80 to $120. I ran into another guy in my area with a pump and dump from the same MFG and his bill hasn't exceed $75 but his house is about 1000 sq.ft. less.

I just cut and pasted this geo-dialogue to the "Geothermal Heat Pump" thread. I gotta get outta here...this fish stuff is still way over my head.
...and now, back to your regularly scheduled program.
ta-ta

I read up on most of this thread, interesting. I currently use Purina Gamefish. I just bought a new bag but my fish slowed way down on eating. I was thinking to run out and get 15 to 20 trout for the winter. Do you think they will eat the GFC or is it not going to work for them. I was thinking doing it for a experament and also have some winter tout action, also to use up the GFC. Is there any negitives to adding trout for the winter? After reading this thread I think my naxt bag will be Aquamax or silver cup if I can find it. I do have about 15 HSB in the pond.

I'd definitely try it on them to see if they'd eat it. I'm sure it's too low in protein to be optimum trout feed, but these guys are just in for the Winter until it gets too warm next year, right? Use it up on the trout if they eat it, and make a gradual switch over to something about 40% protein as you finish off the GFC.

I currently have about 4/5 of a bag of Aquamax and 1/2 a bag of GFC that were leftover from this year in sealed containers in the basement refridgerator, for feeding to fish indoors this Winter and holdover until next Spring. I'd feed it all if I had something worthwhile in the pond to feed it to, like trout. As is, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it stays OK through the Winter (I did it last Winter with a small quantity of GFC, that seemed OK come Spring).

I've got some 45% fingerling feed double bagged in plastic garbage bags plus the original sack, then in a can with lid on. It is keeping well.
I split up my remaining GFC in plastic containers that dog goodies come in. Put saran wrap over the top before screwing the lid on tight. It is also keeping well inside the house. Had to move it from behind the lounger in family living room to a bedroom closet, though.

Theo the trout are for the winter unless they live... The pond is spring fed but the surface water got as high as 88 this year, I never took a temp at lower depths. Next year I should have a aereator going also so if the trout make it, great. Come spring if I catch them they will come out as I am sure they will be good to eat. The hatchery said I could expect a inch a month maybe a little more. We figured 10 - 12 inch fish would be best for me to get. He is giving them to me for 1 buck each. I figure if they dont do any harm, then why not maybe if there is any big bass in there that I dont know of they will also have a good meal in the spring. I will try the GFC if they dont eat it then I will go get the Aquamax and bag up the GFC and save it for spring. Off to make up a temp areator for the truck to get them home.

Storage of most fish foods including the higher protein varieties over winter is acceptable especially if the fish you are feeding it to are free roaming individuals. Always check aged food for mold. Feeding moldy food to fish is always unacceptable in my opinion. Where the rub comes with old stored food is if you are feeding it to fish that have to rely SOLELY on the food for all their dietary nutrition. Some unstable vitamins and proteins can degrade with time and in warm temps. Storing food on cool or cold temps increases the storage or shelf life. Degraded and aged food may cause dietary defficiencies in fish that do not have access to natural foods.

Hello,

We've actually killed fish with old feed. I did not follow through with a necropsy to determine a definitive cause, but the fish stopped dying as soon as we switched to fresh feed. To be safe, toss pellets if they are moldy or smell at all rancid. How long you can keep the pellets depends on humidity, temperature and type of feed. I believe a lot of the feeds with soybean or wheat based protein can withstand storage better than the high content fish meal diets, like Silvercup...I've got Koi Wheatgerm pellets that are still good after 2 years!

We keep our feed in an air conditioned dry room and try to use it up within 6 months. However, properly stored feed should still be ok after 12 months but, as mentioned above, many of the vitamins degrade, making it less nutritious. We only use 45% protein Silvercup Steelhead diet with our trout, bass & bluegill. Lesser diets are fine in recreational ponds where the fish get a healthy dose of natural food, but I wouldn't consider anything cheaper (believe it or not, there are diets much, much more expensive than Silvercup!) when the fish 50%+ rely on what you give them for nutrition.

Also, we have experienced severe problems with hyperglycemia and fatty livers with lower protein diets...the issue is that fish can not handle too many carbs...predatory fish do well on the Atkins diet! Finally, there is a water temperature issue. We've found that Bluegill and Hybrid Bluegill become more and more susceptible to the above mentioned problems as water temps drop. I usually recommend that you stop feeding pellets below about 60F when natural food is available.

I have about 40lbs of GFC that will probably go to waste, I never did get the fish to taking pellets in about 1 1/2 months of trying. I will probably feed it to the chickens if they will eat it, maybe the dogs they seem to have a interest in it everytime they get around the bag. I assume the temp is too cold now but I havent checked in awhile it was 60 something before the cold spell we have had.

Thanks for the good advice from a pro, Mike Robinson. The issue with panfish as related to low temps. is particularly eye opening.

Now, that is interesting about the fatty livers on the low protien/fat diets. I would have thought it was the other way around.

With the exception of vegetarians like carp, tilapia and some of the filter feeding crappie, all pond fish are predators. This makes me rethink some stuff.

Fish food content is a interesting topic that is not easy to state in a few sentences or general pronouncements. It all depends. Try this for a start.

North American Journal of Aquaculture 68:122–140, 2006
Copyright by the American Fisheries Society 2006
DOI: 10.1577/A05-006.1


Challenges and Opportunities in Finfish Nutrition

JESSE T. TRUSHENSKI,* CRAIG S. KASPER, AND CHRISTOPHER C. KOHLER
Fisheries and Illinois Aquaculture Center and Department of Zoology, Southern Illinois University,
Carbondale, Illinois 62901-6511, USA

Abstract.—Much of the criticism leveled at aquaculture (e.g., dependency on animal-derived feedstuffs,
nutrient-laden effluent discharges, and increased organic contamination in edible products) can be traced to
the feeds in use. Accordingly, finfish nutritionists are being challenged to formulate feeds that not only meet
the nutritional requirements of livestock but also minimize production costs, limit environmental impacts, and
enhance product quality. These challenges not only add considerable complexity to finfish nutrition but also
afford opportunities to avoid some of the mistakes made by other industries in the past. From a review of the
current status of finfish nutrition with respect to major nutrient classes, we comment on future opportunities
and promising avenues of research. Alternative protein sources, specifically those derived from marine
bycatch, plants, and microbes, are discussed, as well as methods to facilitate their implementation in finfish
feeds. Dietary lipid, its role in fish bioenergetics and physiology, and quality of aquaculture products is
reviewed with special emphasis on alternative lipid sources and finishing diets. Carbohydrates and fiber are
discussed in terms of nutrient-sparing, least-cost diet formulation and digestive physiology. Micronutrients are
reviewed in terms of current knowledge of requirements and, along with other dietary immunostimulants, are
given further consideration in a review of nutriceuticals and application in finfish feeds. The status of
nutritional research in new aquaculture species is also outlined. By integrating classical approaches with
emerging technologies, dietary formulations, and species, finfish nutritionists may identify means to increase
production efficiency and sustainability and provide for the continued success of aquaculture.
Identifying diets that meet the nutritional needs of
organisms is requisite to their successful culture.
Commercial production often evolves from high priced,
niche marketing to commodity status when
complete diets have been formulated and produced for
the target species. Profit margins are typically narrow
in animal production, particularly for maturing markets;
any method that minimizes production costs is
welcome progress (Riepe et al. 1992). Feed costs are
the largest expenditure for finfish producers, and here
lies the greatest opportunity for improvement. Formulating
diets well suited to target species will overcome
financial challenges, contributing to the long-term
sustainability of aquaculture. Moreover, diets can be
formulated to reduce effluents (Gatlin and Hardy 2002)
and dependence on resources not renewable in the
short term (i.e., fish meal). Progressive nutrition can
reduce environmental and ecological costs, as well as
the tangible price of feed. We review the current status
of finfish nutrition with respect to the major nutrient
classes, identify recurring problems, and suggest
potential solutions and promising avenues of research.
As aquaculturists, we are faced with both challenges
and opportunities; our purpose here is to provide
impetus for the development of avant-garde feeds and
feeding strategies that will allow the industry to meet
the challenges ahead and expand current opportunities
into future success.
Finfish as Unique Livestock
Finfish nutrition is limited by several constraints
associated with the aquatic environment and the
adaptations finfish have acquired to inhabit it. Diversity
in nutritional needs and limited direct interaction
between terrestrial culturists and aquatic livestock
limits feeds and feed delivery methods. These
constraints are foreign to other livestock production
industries but are prevalent throughout aquaculture
production.
Finfish have evolved to exploit virtually every
conceivable niche, feeding strategy, trophic level, and
habitat. To optimize production, however, livestock
producers attempt to simplify the complexities of the
natural environment, eschewing diversity and stochasticism
for control and predictability. The immense
variety of cultured finfish species hampers efforts to
simplify production industrywide. Approximately 170
taxa are currently cultured, including carnivores,
herbivores, planktivores, and omnivores, each posing
its own set of nutritional demands (FAO 1999). Finfish
nutrition is made exceedingly complex by the great
diversity in form and function imparted by the
variability of the natural environment.
Other aspects of aquatic life further complicate
nutrition in ways that are foreign to terrestrial livestock
* Corresponding author: saluski@siu.edu
Received February 2, 2005; accepted June 8, 2005
Published online March 21, 2006
122


Fish meal has proven to be
an excellent dietary protein source for finfish, leading
to its description as an ‘‘ideal protein.’’

The search for novel protein sources is hampered by
difficulties in determining the needs of individual
species. Finfish do not have a dietary crude protein
requirement per se, but they do require the same 10
essential amino acids (EAA) as most terrestrial
vertebrates, specifically arginine, histidine, isoleucine,
leucine, lysine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine,
tryptophan, and valine.

Quantitative EAA requirements are lacking for most
finfish species, and as a result, many nutritional studies focus instead on addressing crude protein requirements.
As a consequence, several protein-rich commercial
diets have been produced and applied to a broad
spectrum of finfish species, regardless of the nutritional
needs of the species.

Lipids, fatty acids, and their derivatives play a role in
virtually every physiological process that occurs in
vivo, and for this reason dietary lipid composition and
content represent a massive sector of overall nutrition.
Nowhere is this more true than in finfish nutrition
where lipid can exceed protein in the body composition
of finfish, a testament to the physiological and
energetic importance of this nutrient class (Tocher
2003). Aside from physiological importance, lipids are
indispensable energy sources, especially for finfish,
which are not well-adapted to carbohydrate utilization.
For these reasons, lipids and fatty acids have received
great interest and are perhaps the most widely
researched nutrient class in modern finfish nutrition.
Because finfish are, for the most part, intolerant of
high dietary carbohydrate content (see Carbohydrates
section below), lipids and fatty acids represent the
primary sources of metabolic energy.


Feeding
diets containing increased levels of digestible carbohydrate
resulted in increased liver size and glycogen
content in salmonids (Phillips et al. 1948; Hilton and
Atkinson 1982), and warmwater species have performed
poorly when fed diets in which glucose is the
major source of dietary energy (Wilson and Poe 1987;
Hung et al. 1989). These adverse effects are related to
the hyperglycemic state induced by increased digestible
carbohydrate availability. Carnivorous fish
fed complex carbohydrate diets exhibit prolonged
hyperglycemia similar to diabetic mammals (Shimeno
et al. 1977; Brauge et al. 1994; Wilson 1994),
followed by hepatic degeneration from glycogen
accumulation (Brauge et al. 1994).

Eric, I read that piece 4 times. It took 4 times to really digest it. I kept re-reading the statement that says we are feding the same protien diet to all fish regardless of their different nutritional needs. However, since they inhabit a common home, a balanced BG/LMB/CC BOW is going to necessitate a generic feed that will be consumed equally by the BG and CC. Lusk told me years ago to turn off the feeders a couple of days per week so the predators (almost all fish are predators) would get some natural foods.

The last area, Feeding, pretty well substantiates Mike Robinsons observations. It further proves that feeding bread and Ol Roy dog food really is harmful to the health of your fish.

I believe tilapia are the #1 farm fish in the world. I wonder what type of feed formulation they require.

Further, what are the real feed requirements for a pond fish as versus a farm fish? I expect that farm fish growth rates have been more intensely studied and some some bagged for the non farm market is sold. That's us. I like the idea of feeding Silver Cup but it is only sold by the pallet so I just go with Purina Game Fish Chow.

Trying to optimize feed composition and utilization is an extremely complex subject, so much so I'm not sure a perfect solution can ever be achieved for any situation other than a monoculture (which very few of us here will ever have in a BOW (Body of Water, DD?) bigger than a PBR). So we have to look for heuristic (good, not great) solutions to the various feeding problems.

GFC is the best feed I can just drive down the road a couple of miles and pick up anytime. And I consider it close to optimum for BG and CC. But now that I'm feeding HSB and some abherrent LMB, I want to up the protein content for them. Aquamax carnivore is really ggod for this application IMHO, but has two problems I see: 1) it costs about 60% more than GFC and 2) I have to special order it (and I doubt the local mill would sell enough to stock it full time if I bought it for 100% of my fish feed; it's not enough volume). I hate the thought of going to straight Aquamax when BG and CC will still be consuming a large portion of the feed.

So I'm probably going to try a mixture of GFC and Aquamax; now I have to try and optimize the utilization of each part by the target species in a mixed species BOW (I think I'm gonna use that acronym a lot DD - how often do you want the royalty checks? ). So far I have been considering if size difference will help with this (GFC pellets being smaller than the larger Aquamax size) and if physical placement of the feed in different areas of the pond will help (possible in my case due to hand feeding, would be possible for PM's with multiple automatic feeders as well). Any thoughts?

Dang, Theo; I didn't realize BOW wasn't on the list.

Somewhere I have a list of all of the different feed sizes, from dust to chunks, that Purina sells. It might be possible to go small enough in a specific feeder to make it not worthwhile for larger fish to feed. And conversely, for some large enough to be ignored by BG.

I mix AQMX 500 and 600 in our feeders.

Quote of DD..."Lusk told me years ago to turn off the feeders a couple of days per week so the predators (almost all fish are predators) would get some natural foods." I would like to do that. Is there a feeder controller that allows you to set up for skip a day?

You guys are mixing a lot of subjects.

Compensatory feeding is a recent idea and it was discussed here a little. It involves feeding for a period say 5 days and turning off the feed for say 2 days. It is designed for better growth rates but would also serve to force the fish to natural food. My feeders don't have that ability and I don't know if the new timers have that ability.

That paper goes into great detail about all major aspects of feeding on many types of fish . I just posted a couple points.

Compare the labels of feeds and see what they contain and compare them. Dave the article covers all sorts of fish - warm water , cold water ,some salt water, cats ,tilapia ,trout and a bunch more. The paper has about 300 reference papers.

Be sure to distinguish between aquaculture/hatchery fish (very high dependence on pellets) and pond fish (only a small % dependence on pellets). In most non-hatchery BOW pellets are supplemental not primary. In aquaculture operations pellet matters/questions are critical but not so much in pond situations. There are studies on protein requirements for different fish. Many note that the cost of higher protein feed is not warranted ( for example 32 vs. 38) where fish have an adequate mixed natural diet. An exception is in crowded ponds or in growout/young fish situations where higher protein % can really help jump start growth. I often mix 38% fingerling food with GFC to cover several bases. I try to look at the labels and mix things up with GFC as a basic to reduce non- fish meal protein and carbs. I like the different size pellets in GFC. It doesn't matter what is in the feed if the fish can't eat it because of pellet size.


Here are a couple points worth discussing.

1. Fish meal in high % in feed is good as it provides protein and the right amino acids (AA) and lipids. It is not so much the % protein but the right type and amount AA that is critical.

2. To much carbs is not good and comes a lot from non-fish meal/oil protein (plant) sources like soy and legumes. It is not the carbs as such that cause fatty liver type problems but the sugars that are produced in the breakdown of carbs.

3 .I have seen no indication that supp feeding of pond fish ( ones that eat natural food + pellets as a supp source) in cold water causes a problem. I have seen several studies that say do feed but at reduced rates until the fish (type dependant) reach their thermal feeding minimum, then stop. If you stop before then you may miss the most important time to feed them - the fall growth spurt and winter storage period , just before feeding slows for winter. Let the fish tell you. If the water temp is 55 and the BG and LMB are feeding like mad getting ready for winter, don't stop because some article said feeding below 60 can cause problems.

4. Feeding to much or having to much fish biomass in a small BOW can cause water quality problems via excess feed and waste .

5. No doubt in my mind adequate balanced natural food is better . Many situations call for pellets even if they are not quite as good as a natural balanced food supply. Recall that the answer to growth is calories/energy in vs. energy expended. Not much energy expended in catching a pellet so the net is higher even if the food is not quite as good.

Enough ramblings for now.

Good synopsis, Eric. BTW..I have water! 5 more inches last night.

Theo,

I kind of have a similar situation with HSB and several other species and wanting to target the HSB with high protein feed.. My approach is to feed the high protein (expensive) feed in the deep water areas and lower protein (less expensive feed) in the shallow areas. In my case, the HSB dominate the deep water feeding and the BG, Tilapia, Grass carp tend to feast on the lower protein feeding station in relatively shallow water.

BTW, as mentioned before, Rangen makes GFC in my area but interestingly they won't sell it direct to me at their warehouse. They will only sell their name branded feeds at the plant.

That's great BM. Did any fish survive? I hope. Either way what is the plan ? Is the pond near full?

ML that is a strange sales method -- what is up with that ? Is all their GFC pre sold to or made for distributors?

ML:

That is the area distribution split I was thinking might work. I'll have to see if the fish agree next year.

OK, so I'm wondering along these lines, what would be the "filet mignon" of feeds in smaller quantities to grow out some of your pond fish in a tank during the winter?

I think more people with smaller ponds, between say .1 acre and 1.5 acres could raise enough fish in the winter indoors to enjoy the spectacle and enhance their fish populations in their primary ponds. Aquatic Ecosystems has some really expensive feeds for their Koi that wouldn't really hurt the bottom line if you were only using ten to twenty pounds during the winter. For example, if normal feed costs 50 cents/pound, but some medicated or "super formula" food cost 2 bucks, then you'd only be costing yourself an extra 20 to 40 dollars. Here's an example.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/11367/cid/2440

Any comments? Maybe from some of you who know someone who is really into the aquarium scene?

BC, I do not see that food making a major impact on the fish just on your wallet. I see where your going. I also did not read all this thread so maybe not on track here.

BUT I suggest for econmic choice on CNBG a 36% protein level, 3.5 % fat 1/8 inch pellet, I sell for $16 ranges most places $13-$18. Maybe more in midwest. If folks want to step it up then we sell the trout chow, 44% protein 18% fat, 1/8 inch pellet, $23/bag. If not using this then suggest that being used or in this case use it for filet mignon choice in aquarium. I can not bring myself to see the reason to spend $9 for 5 lb bag,

Bruce if I were going to grow out (overwinter) a few fish (100 +-) in an RAS or two and they were small fish (like you did last year) I would go with natural food (theirs if possible) and mix it up. Krill , worms , FH (minnows), scuds, crickets , and supp. with high protein food (fish meal/oil) with little bulk or carbs.

I am taking the corollary approach to ewest's this Winter. I am feeding 40% protein pelleted feed for the majority of the diet, with a natural supplement "dessert" (earthworms, mealworms, krill) once or twice a week. By Spring my 27 RES will have been on this diet for about 8 months; stayed tuned.

I agree that supplying natural feed as well as prepared commerical pellets is good (perhaps we should just say essential) for long term nutrition (thinks to fish feeding info ewest has provided from studies ). For predators like SMB I would want to add a higher percentage of natural protein; for omnivores like Tilapia or catfish I would not worry about it as much as I have with Lepomis species.

What's the cheapest krill source? I know you told me before, but I'm too lazy at the moment to look it up.

Water is in the low 50's sometimes mid 50's to what temps should I see the HSB feed. Mine slowed but are still eating or will they fed all winter?

We should have Cecil list where he got his 2 kilos from, assuming they showed up. They have to be cheaper in bulk form like that.

For aqaurium-sized quantities, I'd go to a dedicated pet center (PetSmart in my case). They tend to have larger containers of fish feed than the pet dept at Walmart, etc., with corresponding better prices per ounce.

Based on the HSB expert's reports, I expect yours will stop feeding fairly soon as the temps drop. Even if fish take feed in colder water, they can have trouble digesting prepared feeds (mostly due to plant source carbohydrate content) which can cause health problems. This tends to be exascerbated in predators, so I imagine HSB are at risk.

Joey, our HSB slow down in the winter but never stop feeding.

Based upon extensive striped bass fishing experience, stripers are voracious feeders at temps in the 50+ degree range, and continue to feed until water temps reach the mid 40‘s.

Striped bass are an anadromous species, native to the cold northeastern U.S. coastal waters, and successfully transplanted to inland reservoirs.
Striped bass are my all time favorite sport fish, and without a doubt, HSB are the primary predator fish for our ponds.

I see no reason their hybrid offspring feeding habits would be any different.

ps: My wife caught a 13.5# Lake Texoma hybrid striped bass 01-22-93.
The fish were schooling on top water.
Near surface water temperature was 43.5 degrees.

George do you feed them every other day, etc. depending on the weather. I had feeder set for 4 times/day then scaled back to 2 then one now only fed on warm afternoons by hand. I'm trying to raise the 3-5 inchers to 8-10 inchers to harvest for clients out of one of our holding ponds. I'm surprised they are still feeding water temp last week b/f the recent warm front was down to 52. thanks

Nice HSB!

Greg, we feed twice daily since I don’t know if feeders can be set for alternate days.
Currently, with optimum temps, we are feeding twice daily – 8:00 am and 5:00 pm at a rate of 3#’s per acre/day.
As feeding slows we lower feed amount to once daily feeding.

(Feeding includes CNBG, oversize/overstocked CC and occasional GC, as well as HSB)

Maybe Todd will chime in on this since he also is growing out 8-10 inch HSB.

Thank George, and that is a really nice HSB.

Joey,

Mine feed most of the winter. I reduce the amount of feed when water temps get below 50 degrees, but continue to feed and see HSB feeding activity.

Once water temps drop into the 50s, we just feed a maintenance ration on nice weather days. Can't say what % body weight that we feed, however, just cause I don't know for sure.

With good growing temps (60s-70-s) we feed as often as twice daily.

Didnt feed the pond yesterday, today water is even a tad colder but I had a fair amount of takers. Only threw a few cups out. The stripers fed good and I had BG feed also, water low 50's The dock BG/CNBG are still eating the crushed pellets very good.