Pond Boss Magazine
https://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shotgun01, Dan H, Stipker, LunkerHunt23, Jeanjules
18,451 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums36
Topics40,901
Posts557,100
Members18,452
Most Online3,612
Jan 10th, 2023
Top Posters
esshup 28,416
ewest 21,475
Cecil Baird1 20,043
Bill Cody 15,110
Who's Online Now
12 members (PRCS, FishinRod, Boondoggle, esshup, Layne, Dylanfrely, nvcdl, H20fwler, Bing, Fishingadventure, Angler8689, Sunil), 707 guests, and 200 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#289086 04/24/12 12:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
OP Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Quote:
A new biotech corn developed by Dow AgroSciences could answer the prayers of U.S. farmers plagued by a fierce epidemic of super-weeds. Or it could trigger a flood of dangerous chemicals that may make weeds even more resistant and damage other important U.S. crops.

Or, it could do both.

"Enlist," entering the final stages of regulatory approval, has become the latest flashpoint in the debate about the risks and rewards about farm technology. With a deadline to submit public comments on Dow's proposal at the end of this week, more than 5,000 individuals and groups have already weighed in. Dow Agrosciences, a unit of Dow Chemical, hopes to have the product approved this year and released by the 2013 crop.

The corn itself is not the issue—rather it is the potent herbicide chemical component 2,4-D that is the center of debate.

The new corn is engineered to withstand liberal dousings of a Dow-developed herbicide containing the compound, commonly used in lawn treatments of broadleaf weeds and for clearing fields of weeds before crops like wheat and barley are planted.

Enlist is the first in a planned series of new herbicide-tolerant crops aimed at addressing a resurgence of crop-choking weeds that have developed resistance to rival Monsanto's popular Roundup herbicide. It is part of an expanding agricultural arsenal advocates say is key to growing enough food to feed a growing global population.

But while 2,4-D has a long history of effective use, the chemical's volatile nature also worries environmentalists because winds, high temperatures, humidity can cause traditional forms of the herbicide to migrate from farm fields where it is sprayed to wreak havoc on far-off crops, gardens, and trees that are unprotected from the invisible agent.

Environmentalists are pushing the government to pause before opening the door to what they say could be a destructive turn.

Opponents include some specialty crop farmers who fear 2,4-D herbicide use could cause widespread damage to crops that are not engineered with a tolerance to it. It is so potent that its use is tightly restricted in some areas and at certain times of the year in some U.S. states.

"It is a major issue for farm country," said John Bode, a lawyer for a coalition of farmers and food companies seeking regulatory restrictions or rejection of Dow's plans.

"Massive amounts of 2,4-D... can cause major changes, threatening specialty crops miles away," said Bode, an assistant Secretary of Agriculture in the Reagan administration.

The financial stakes are high as well. Dow projects a "billion dollar value" in a product line that is its biggest challenge yet to the dominance of top seed company Monsanto's revolutionary Roundup herbicide and its genetically modified "Roundup Ready" seeds. Dow hopes to expand Enlist into soybeans .

Where Roundup once killed weeds easily, experts say that now, even heavy use of the herbicide using the key chemical glyphosate often fails to kill "super weeds."

New Herbicide Tempers ‘Drift’

Some weed scientists are supportive of Enlist. In the southern third of Illinois, prime corn-belt country, infestations of the invasive water hemp weed have doubled each year over the past three years, according to Bryan Young, weed scientist at Southern Illinois University.


"The de-regulation of Enlist herbicide-tolerant corn will expand grower options for controlling problematic weeds and has proven in my research to be effective as such," Young wrote to the USDA in a letter supporting Dow's application.

Dow officials say they are aware of the problems with 2,4-D "drift" and volatility, and that the new herbicide has been formulated to reduce those factors dramatically.

Dow says that if farmers use the new Dow version of 2,4-D properly, drift is reduced about 90 percent, and tests show the new product has "ultra-low volatility."

Even many opponents of Dow's new herbicide say it is an improvement of generic rivals using 2,4-D. But they say Dow's version will be expensive enough that many farmers will probably buy cheaper generics to spray on the 2,4-D-tolerant corn.

Dow acknowledges that lure, but says it will work to steer farmers to its brand.

"I don't think you can ever guarantee it, but we are doing all we can to try to incentivize people and educate people," said Tom Wiltrout, Global Strategy Leader for Seeds and Traits at Dow. "We were worried too. That was one of the big debates we had. Chemistry is the key. We think we've got an answer."

David Simmons, an Indiana farmer who grows corn and soybeans but also runs a vineyard and winery, says his young grapevines have suffered significant damage from drifting 2,4-D applications at neighboring farms, forcing him to fight to recover damage claims from fellow farmers' insurance carriers.

"I'm faced with looking five years down the road. Is it even going to be profitable to grow grapes if I continue to get this damage every summer?" Simmons said.

Due to the already-known effects from "drift," opponents have requested that some form of an indemnity fund be established to pay loss claims from farms damaged by inadvertent 2,4-D applications. Dow has opposed that safeguard.

High Stakes

Opponents have flooded the U.S. Department of Agriculture with petitions and pleas for either rejection of Dow's new corn, or strict regulation before use of 2,4-D is expanded into millions of acres in the U.S. agricultural heartland. More than 90 million acres of corn alone will be planted in 2012.

Last week, the Save Our Crops coalition representing more than 2,000 U.S. farmers filed legal petitions with the USDA and the Environmental Protection Agency demanding the government scrutinize Dow's plans more closely. The group has said it could file a lawsuit to try to stop the new type of corn.

Steve Smith, director of agriculture at Indiana-based Red Gold, the world's largest processor of canned tomatoes, calls the 2,4-D issue a "ticking time bomb."

"We are all producers and people who have no problem with new technology. But we see this new piece of it having side effects that we don't think people have adequately thought of," said Smith.

Others fear Enlist and 2,4-D may only be only the beginning of a new wave of dangerous farm chemicals. Chemical giant BASF and Monsanto plan to unveil by the middle of this decade crops tolerant to a mix of the chemicals dicamba and glyphosate.

This increasing use of chemicals will only spell worse weed resistance in years to come, warn weed scientists and environmentalists.

"It's a chemical arms race," said Andrew Kimbrell, a lawyer at the Center for Food Safety opposed to the new crop systems. "It's a scary scenario. We won't be able to do anything with these weeds other than use machetes."

Instead of using more chemicals in order to plant corn on the same field year after year, U.S. farmers should be rotating crops more, a technique proven to challenge weed resistance, many weed scientists say.

Dow says that while Enlist farmers' best option for now, it will not be the only long-term solution for weed resistance.

"There is no silver bullet here," said Joe Vertin, Dow's global business leader for Enlist.



Brettski #289092 04/24/12 01:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
Brettski - What is the point of this post? What am I missing in regards to ponds and fish?

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/24/12 01:08 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Bill Cody #289098 04/24/12 02:11 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,318
Likes: 6
Ambassador
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,318
Likes: 6
Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
Brettski - What is the point of this post? What am I missing in regards to ponds and fish?


I am not sure but what I took from that is this. Basically the more chemicals we use on our weeds on our ponds the harder and harder it is going to be to kill them off. At some point the pond weed / chara won't even be effected from the chemical anymore? It should only be used as a last resort so to speak. At least that's what I got out of it anyway! Or maybe this corn will be GREAT for deer hunting!! smile

Last edited by RC51; 04/24/12 02:12 PM.

The only difference between a rut and a Grave is the depth. So get up get out of that rut and get moving!! Time to work!!
Bill Cody #289099 04/24/12 02:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
OP Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Hey Bill,
It points out and warns of the uses and potential over-uses of glyphosphate, round up, and 2-4-D in a huge industry that uses the same lands that pond bosses use and live adjacent to. Furthermore, we as pond bosses use these same products and may have reason to expect increasingly diminished results as we attempt to control the areas that we manage on our own smaller acreages.
I felt there was some useful educational info and triggers for discussion. If you or any of the Mod's disagree, by all means remove. No malice perceived at this end.
thx Bill.

Last edited by Brettski; 04/24/12 07:50 PM. Reason: meant "no malice", not "now malice"
Brettski #289104 04/24/12 03:14 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,748
Likes: 33
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,748
Likes: 33
This is true. There are many weeds that very hard to kill chemically. Its a huge problem.

jludwig #289118 04/24/12 05:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 475
J
Offline
J
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 475
Oh boy.I promise not to sound off on my true PERSONAL opinions of the genetic ramifications.

I actually had written a longer reponse, but decided to shorten, and change it.

Weeds have been around forever, and weeds will always be here.

In a few years, good ol' 2,4,D will also be rendered useless.....

Quite sad actually. I read somewhere the definition of insanity is continually making the same mistake, and expecting different results.

Bill, arent there lots of subjects on this forum that do not pertain to ponds or fishes?





Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer.
JamesBryan #289130 04/24/12 07:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
E
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014
Lunker
E
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 21,475
Likes: 264
This topic has the potential to turn into a big problem. I think Bill is right but is being nice. B'ski's posting of the info is ok and people can read it and make up their own minds.. The concern is the discussion which follows it. Note that everyone in the article has their own agenda. We don't need their agendas discussed here starting a disagreement among posters.
















ewest #289136 04/24/12 08:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,713
Likes: 35
Administrator
Lunker
Offline
Administrator
Lunker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,713
Likes: 35
I have never thought of Brettski as a rabble rouser. Could be, though grin


Life is Good on Bremer Pond

Bremer Pond Weather
Dwight #289137 04/24/12 08:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
O.k., umm, uh. Let see. Uh, (clears throat).

Never mind! grin

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 04/24/12 08:39 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Dwight #289138 04/24/12 08:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
B
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
B
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 478
I was just interested in how Brett saw this related to pond managment. Repetitive use of the same chemical on the same weed species does build resistance in the plant to the chemical. The continual and frequent use of copper on algae is just one example of algae developing resistance to copper and gradually selecting for species tolerant of copper. Agriculture farmers are currently seeing this problem. This also applies to use of antibiotics for humans. Varying the treatment helps minimize the tendency toward resistance.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/24/12 08:43 PM.

aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
Bill Cody #289140 04/24/12 08:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
OP Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Quote:
...an Indiana farmer who grows corn and soybeans but also runs a vineyard and winery, says his young grapevines have suffered significant damage from drifting 2,4-D applications at neighboring farms

I think that this is just as disturbing as the purported future of chemical weed control diminishing returns. I think about all the many times that I have used glyphosphate and am well aware of the potential of drift on breezy days, but I never considered that the mist might be so atomized that it can travel much greater distances than I ever thought. If I am reading this report about drift correctly, it can really get into the atmosphere like a fog and move pretty far. Never considered that level of transit potential.

Brettski #289156 04/24/12 09:29 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,748
Likes: 33
J
Offline
J
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,748
Likes: 33
Grapes are highly sensitive to 2, 4-D. If there is a vineyard nearby, no spraying will occur.

Brettski #289157 04/24/12 09:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 19
D
Offline
D
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 19
Interesting article... a few thoughts.

1) Chemical resistance is a tremendous concern in the agricultural area in which I primarily operate, and this absolutely carries over to aquatics (especially alligator weed). Unfortunately we don't have too many viable options for this species...

2) It's interesting the article doesn't distinguish between ester and amine formulations of 2,4-D, as that makes a tremendous difference in volatilization potential.

3) Drift is drift. Know your product and application method, you as an applicator are liable. There is a time to treat, and a time not to treat.

There is a need for both broader use of existing formulations and more prudent use of existing ones. Interesting dynamic...

Dan Prevost #289158 04/24/12 09:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,043
Likes: 1
I'm so proud that all of you can keep this civil, and can have an adult discussion here. Now what i was going to say was... Never mind! smirk

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 04/24/12 09:32 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






Dan Prevost #289174 04/24/12 10:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,488
Likes: 2
Originally Posted By: Dan Prevost
Interesting article... a few thoughts.
2) It's interesting the article doesn't distinguish between ester and amine formulations of 2,4-D, as that makes a tremendous difference in volatilization potential.
3) Drift is drift. Know your product and application method, you as an applicator are liable. There is a time to treat, and a time not to treat.
There is a need for both broader use of existing formulations and more prudent use of existing ones. Interesting dynamic...
Excellent points Dan, and right on target.
IMO, the two most significant factors that prompt "resistance issues" are:
-"Saving money by cutting dose-rates". Low-end dose-rates may indeed kill the most susceptable members of a target-population (whether weeds, insects or pathogens). However, pests that survive low-dose treatments often do so by virtue of a genetic trait that provides them with an elevated "tolerance". They, in turn, pass this trait along to their descendants. Multiple generations repetatively exposed to the low-dose approach eventually results in a surviving population that possesses a highly magnified genetic tolerance to the substance, which ultimately transitions into a fully resistant population - at any dose-rate. For this reason, most medications instruct the user to take the fully prescribed number of tablets/dosages, even though the patient may feel better after only a few capsules.
-Failure to rotate chemistries (as Bill previously mentioned). The most successful way to avoid resistance (toward insecticides, herbicides, fungicides and medications) is to rotate chemistries - and more specifically, modes-of-action. Most pesticides fall into one of a few catagories based on their mode-of-action (ie "how they work on the targeted pest"). Repetitive use of the same product, or even multiple products that occupy the same mode-of-action catagory, can easily cause the entire catagory to loose its effectiveness.
Bottom line: Although the lowest possible pesticide dose-rate may ostensibly seem "good for the environment", the long-term decline in the pesticide's efficiency and practical utility is put at risk; and any new products "in the pipeline" (under development) are innately more expensive than those that must be replaced due to efficacy issues.

Kelly Duffie #289281 04/25/12 08:44 PM
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
R
RAH Offline
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
R
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 5,714
Likes: 281
The only way to entirely prevent herbicide resistance is not to use herbicides (no risk and no benefit). Kinda like banning antibiotics to prevent bacterial resistance. Sensible use of herbicides (or antibiotics) will slow resistance. As a point of fact, Dow AgroSciences has developed a new 2,4-D formulation that reduces volatility by 90%. The complaint is that farmers may illegally use another formulation and cause damage to neighbors crops. Its kinda like banning guns from sportsmen because criminals use guns to commit crimes, Some favor that approach, and some do not,

Brettski #289323 04/26/12 08:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,505
Likes: 3
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,505
Likes: 3
Originally Posted By: Brettski
...have reason to expect increasingly diminished results as we attempt to control the areas that we manage on our own smaller acreages.


Interesting point, Brettski. I liken it to the manner in which some antibiotics that were once able to kill anything now barely work at all. The diseases have gotten "smart" and adapted to overcome the beneficial effect of the drugs, leading to the emergence of drug resistant diseases. I see no reason that plants may not eventually develop the same sort of adaptation to overuse of chemicals. That really ought to be an encouragement for us to properly manage our ponds in the first place so that the conditions for bad plant growth are minimized in the first place as opposed to reacting to an imbalance with a chemical response.


Todd La Neve

[Linked Image from i108.photobucket.com]
Click Here to Subscribe to Pond Boss Magazine

1.5 & .5 ac ponds - LMB, BG, RES, YP, GC, HSB
Todd3138 #289330 04/26/12 08:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
OP Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Lunker
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,934
Likes: 2
veering away from the pond-nexus of the topic and leaning more toward day-to-day life...

Quote:
The new corn is engineered to withstand liberal dousings of a Dow-developed herbicide containing the compound, commonly used in lawn treatments of broadleaf weeds and for clearing fields of weeds before crops like wheat and barley are planted.

Quote:
The corn itself is not the issue—rather it is the potent herbicide chemical component 2,4-D that is the center of debate


Please temper this comment as coming from a dopey city boy, but I find it unappetizing and concerning to consider consumption of corn that has been liberally dowsed with the same basic chemical that I use to kill everything that is green. I know...I'm already eating this product with other pesticides and other herbicides being sprayed on it, but now the connection is way too familiar. It's kinda like enjoying cheeseburgers or bologna sandwiches or hotdogs, until you see how it's really made.

Brettski #289338 04/26/12 09:24 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 135
H
Lunker
Offline
Lunker
H
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 135
There will be the usual knee jerk sky is falling and the end is near sort of reactions to this development. But hopefully people will at least attempt to understand the issue of weed resistance and the opportunity that is coming with a 2,4-D application on previously susceptible crops.

Through the use of a 2,4-D type compound, which has been reviewed, re reviewed and re re reviewed by multiple EPA administrations and global reviews for years, we will see an opportunity to slow and possibly eliminate some very real weed issues our farmers face.

There will be those on the Monsanto is evil side who will have zero interest in any science or logic, and those on the GMO is the debil side as well.

2,4-D and the new reengineered forms of 2,4-D (that reports show are some real breakthroughs) when used properly are very effective and environmentally quite benign


Link Copied to Clipboard
Today's Birthdays
Bob Lusk, GaryK, GrizzFan, PhotographerDave
Recent Posts
Working on a .5acre disaster, I mean pond.
by Boondoggle - 03/28/24 06:28 PM
Relative weight charts in Excel ? Calculations?
by esshup - 03/28/24 06:23 PM
Fungus infection on fish
by nvcdl - 03/28/24 06:07 PM
Can anyone ID these minnows?
by Dylanfrely - 03/28/24 05:43 PM
1 year after stocking question
by esshup - 03/28/24 04:48 PM
Yellow Perch Spawn 2024
by H20fwler - 03/28/24 04:29 PM
Alum vs Bentonite/Lathanum for Phosphorus Removal?
by FishinRod - 03/28/24 04:23 PM
New 2 acre pond stocking plan
by LANGSTER - 03/28/24 03:49 PM
Happy Birthday Bob Lusk!!
by ewest - 03/28/24 03:37 PM
Paper-shell crayfish and Japanese snails
by esshup - 03/28/24 10:39 AM
Brooder Shiners and Fry, What to do??
by Freg - 03/28/24 09:42 AM
Dewatering bags seeded to form berms?
by Justin W - 03/28/24 08:19 AM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

� 2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5