Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Winterkill

Your welcome. I am young and in school so I might as well share my knowledge and contribute what I can to this forum.

I know what hydrogen peroxide is. I did not know what H2O2 is.I misread an above post when H2O2 was first mentioned. I apologize for my stupidity, and applaude the tender nudges concerning my mis-understanding!!

WOW! JKB, you must be a very lucky man! DO meter that can monitor water and air can be $$$. Wish I have that kind of cash to get myself something like that. Since you smell H2S in the water, that means you have either a bad vein of gas pocket, or something tainted the soil down below. Water there will be devoid of O2 period! Like I said, H2O2 will grab anything and everything that is willing to bind, which is H2S (hydrogen sulfide), since S is in the same class, but different atomic weight with O, they are willing to share. Acid rain..you got to love it. We have plenty of that here during the late spring, summer, and warm winter, like now, due to the dense smog at the inversion layer.

As you also mention about the "sink" part of the water, when anything that is heavier than O2, and combined with O2 into a soluble compound solution, it will sink. An example is the "heavy" oceanic/fresh water near the deltas. There are heavy water circulating near shore, as well as in sink holes. It's a whole different subject all together. Too long to explain.



You explained very well! You get a huge kudo point for remembering your organic chemistry. Only, and if only the oxygen is released as a radical in a stable water body, oxygen will be dissolved even more/faster than a polluted water body, such as one that has too much turbidity/total suspend solids/dissolved solids/pollutants/organics...



H2O2 may release the oxygen as a radical, and it's an oxidizer, but you have to understand, it's not an industrial strength oxidizer at 5% (retail with safety precaution), 10% (majority of cleaning solvent), or even food grade as high as 35%. No no..it's only at 1% to 3%. Still high enough to cause effects to biological in the short run, but too low to cause concern in the long run. The effects is not 24 hours based, but only 3 to 5 hours. Once again, due to all the fore-mentioned above.

YOU GUYS ROCK! Man, I'm truly blessed to hang in a forum that is active, no bloodshed, yet very in tune with sciences and the natural! KUDOS! Very rare to find such forum that don't exhibit arrogance, and loaded with helpful tips and dedication. If you need my contact for any reason, feel free to message me, and I'll be glad to give you my cell number. Call me any time for info, and of course, I will learn from you as well.

Rex, you'll be hearing from me, since you're the master of tilapia ;-) I would love to work with you in restoring project to the Salton Sea, while working in conjunction with the Department of Fish and Game and Salton Sea Authority. You made my day just being here. By the way, you are truly insightful to this species.

Leo we strive to learn and help others. Glad to have you join in.

For me, it's more of an honor to be apart of.

Fascinating point. Very important information.

I feel as if he has opened a great big window of understanding.I personally cannot wait to hear more of his opinions!! Thanks Leo! I've got some wonderful projects to start on now!!

Jim, thank you. I try to reinforce my opinions as much validated facts as I can. Please, challenge what I say on any given moment without hesitation if something feels off. We have bright minds in here, and let those minds show their very best so we can all learn.

Leo,

It's about "sinking" and "sourcing", and yes, it is a bit complicated, but I am not talking about sink holes here

The well at our old shop was 284 feet deep and in the Marshall Aquifer. The water coming out of that had DO at just under 2ppm, so ground water can have some DO, just not huge amounts.

The first DO meter I got was an Extech, and it measures both DO and %O2 in air. Most self calibrate in air. It was under 500.00

The unit going on my RAS in the "Master" control is made by Mettler Toledo. It is accurate in the low ppb (like 3 parts per billion) range, and will measure up to 50ppm. The sensors are rugged enough to withstand the higher pressures of supersaturating DO if I side stream Pure O2 thru a turbine pump. Although, I would place them right at the end when the water gets to the expansion chamber. Not wanting to go broke buying multiple meters, I am trying to find a remote I/O module on Modbus protocol that can handle +/- 500 nano volts. I have one at +/- 250 nano volts, but not sure how the meter converts volts in to DO. If my hunch is correct, it should work, if not, the inputs are isolated and have over voltage protection. Worst thing that could happen is wasting some time. I can't imagine hitting 50ppm (same as 50mg/l). This process requires a very thorough gas stripping of the water before injecting O2 at the turbine pump.

Interesting subject! Thanks!

Depends on what you are calling a creature.

Aerobic (+ O2) and Anaerobic (- O2) conditions exist, and "creatures" thrive in both of these conditions. They are adapted to it.

Trying to solve all of natures mysteries is a great motivator for us humans. Mistakes happen all the time, but that is to be expected.

We will never figure it all out, and that is where Humility comes in to play

Keep moving forward!

In my understanding, if you have H2S (hydrogen sulfide) you will not have any DO in the water. And vice versa, if you have DO there won't be any H2S in the water. I don't think they can exist together.

There are orgnaisms that can live in anaerobic conditions and I think they are all invertebrates.

Here's some pictures of the pond in question. IIRC, the pond is 250ish feet long from North to South, and the Southern edge of the pond is 160ish feet long (or wide). The pond tapers to about 60-70 feet wide at the Northern side of the pond, sort of a right triangle with the top chopped off and the corners rounded with the base of the triangle to the South.

If you see an orange surveyors flag in one of the pictures, that marked the high water line from 2011. When the pond was constructed, the majority of the dirt from the pond basin was spread out around the pond, creating an 18" to 24" tall grass covered berm around the pond, which is to prevent any surface water from running into the pond, and carrying GSF into the pond. In a wet Spring, the woods around the pond to the NE, E, S and SW will be flooded. From the top of the grassy berm to the water level now is approximately 4', and it's approximately 75' to 100' from the pond basin to the edge of the woods all around the pond. The woods is a mixture of Maple and Red Oak. The deepest area of the pond is the South edge to the Southeastern corner. The northern part of the pond is approximately 0'-4' deep, and continues at that depth over half of the length of the pond as you move Southward on the pond.

Looking from South to North along the Eastern edge of the pond


Looking from South to North along the Western edge of the pond


Looking from East to West along the Southern edge of the pond.
The winter diffuser is at the far SouthWest corner of the pond.


Winter diffuser in action. If I remember correctly, the wind speed was variable that day, 0-10 mph.

Nice unit! Wow, truly a great unit to have for quick field testing. That set someone back a pretty penny. We have the one that fits in a 55-gal fiberglass drum, only designed to do DO, turbidity, and pH. But that thing is so sensitive, it makes my head spin. We have to calibrate that thing constantly to get the best values without any issue. Remember, California's groups can sue the living crap out of you if you mess up field's data. So, we have to be diligent with our data collection to ensure everything is precise..not accurate..precise. We even have to document our calibration procedure with photos and logs. Sheesh.

As for the nano-voltage, similar to the method tested for specific conductivity, a slight charge is sent through the water, or in your device's case, a discharge is sent through the surrounding water to detect the ionized charge return with the sensor sitting at the center. For us, we collect 1 liter of water, use 5 different test tubes to ensure the value comes back with +/- 0.5% returns, without any outliers. The more O2 get ionized from the current, the higher the value return. Normally, the equipment sent out 4 to 5 different voltage cycle after every 15 minutes to get the accurate reading. Each voltage is set with calculation at different level to ensure there is no odd returns on the values. Once the value agreed, it will give the results with a 90% confident. Not sure about the unit you have, but it appears to be pretty well self calibrated.



Excellent deduction! There are creatures of the same species and family, but in different environment. Shrimps that live in fresh water can also be found in the shallow shorelines at the beach, to the depth of the ocean, and also in the secluded environment of the cavern miles below the earth. I'm taking shrimps as a primary example, because these are the only macro-invertibrates that are thriving well in all environment. The specimens that were brought back got placed under intense studies after spelunkers and field biologists extract them from the caverns below. Fresh air was in these caverns miles beneath the surfaces throughout the world. We had the same question marks over our heads just like you did, but our field geology and biology professors provided info to school us more properly. Under the anaerobic environment, with minimal food sources, energy required to be as passive as possible through either respiration process or activities, which triggers high level of ADP and ATP processes (energy production). Yeast would be great example, where when water and sugar is provided, they go crazy. Without one, they slow to a halt, unable to do anything. Anaerobic is either on or off. There is no adjustment to it. However, an optimal biological condition, it's much more efficient to have an aerobic system which can be slowed down, speed up, or just turn off and on completely at full speed, based on the conditions presented. Oxygen is available. Food source available, but scarce. So, the creatures in the cavern will slow down to a minimal to conserve fuel, trigger up the fight and flight response to escape and capture prey, consume, then slow down again. Same with the so called slime worms that hangs at the top of the caverns' ceilings that dangle string droplets of sticky slime. If anaerobic conditions exist down in the depth, there's no way to can trigger functions so readily to survive for millenia.

What gave us a good census of the DO level is the is the creatures we hauled up from the depths from the water sources or by harvesting manually. We try to understand their biological process, either be anaerobic or aerobic, in order to understand the environment below.

Once again JKB, great deduction and conclusion! Not a whole lot of people figure that out at a whim. A analysis like that come back about 1 week after the info presented. Only the keen minds will pick up the different environmental factors like you have. Keep that brain firing!

Bill, JBK presented the scenario for us with his well water, and aerated pond water, as well as California acid rain H2S can exist in the same water. O and S can rip each other H molecules when they need it, based on the total compound structure. In other words, if there are more H2S, then H2O get depleted since H2S is more abundant. However, H2O will try to retain itself in its stable form due to the constant O being neglected without the H to occupy its available space. Once there are enough O connected together, the O mass will then start to pull the H away from the H2S. It's a constant battle to obtain the H, until the O or S got something else to bind onto, such as other O, N, C, etc..Hope that make sense? I may give you guys headaches with a fast review of organic chemistry again.

Scott, did you a capture of the pond's bottom using a scoop or a rake to see what's at the bottom, such as debris, soil type, plant's matter, etc..It can also give us why the fish death occur beside a possible lack of DO or a thermal shock which may occur? The pond's bottom could also contain high level of various fines that could prevent the fish from absorbing oxygen through the gills due to the fines binding to the fish's receptor sites. I'm not a biologist, but I can bring your finding to the local staff at my place to give you a clear views of things. Sorry guys, I wish I can be more insightful immediately, but I have to collect info as I go to provide some definite info for you. There is a definite unseen scenario we haven't brought to light yet.

Leo:

No I haven't. As you can see the water is a wee bit chilly to be wading, and the ice isn't safe for walking. As I was mapping the perimeter of the pond on Wed with my GPS (I was trying to walk as close to the water line as possible) I did slip on the steep muddy bank and got wet to my pants pocktes. I said a nasty word or two.........

The GPS stayed out of the water and I finished the mapping. The pond is relatively new, being built in the summer of 2008. There are no underwater plants growing in the pond. The pond was dug in very sandy tan/yellow/gold colored sand. The bottom of the pond has 4 years of leaf accumulation/decomposition on it and that's about it. The pond doesn't have what we would consider a high fish density.

Scott, give me more on the yellow/gold colored sand. Do you have the sand analyzed or at least a photo of the original sand? Could it be a high level of crystallized soil, possibly quartz?

Wish I could have transport devices and just jump from site to site. So many fascinating sites to visit, but no proper means.

Leo, If you want, send me a PM with a mailing address and I can get out a priority box to you with a bunch of samples in it as soon as I can reach the soil again. We've gotten 10" of snow dumped on us overnight and this morning..

In other words, no analysis has been done.

Will do. Make sure it's dry! LOL Don't want it to leak all over the place.

Leo:

Here's a link to my pond renovation.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=12914&Number=151396#Post151396

In some of the pictures you can see some of the yellow sand that I'm talking about. I live in the same county, and have very similar soil types as the winterkilled pond. I dug my pond down to 22' deep, and ran into the first thin layer of clay at 12' depth. The winterkilled pond wasn't dug that deep, I'm estimating 10' below the orig. existing soil level, so if that clay is there, it was never reached.

In my pond, once that 12" thick layer of sand/clay was passed, it turned to sandy loam again. At about the 15' depth mark, we hit another layer of gravel, which slowly turned to solid grey clay at about the 19' level. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough clay dug out of my pond to line the whole thing.

I have fluctuating water levels in my pond too, but I think my pond hasn't winterkilled for one reason:

I have a larger volume of water in the pond, and it provides a bigger "bank" of D.O. for the fish during the winter if I don't aerate the pond during the winter (which I have done with no winterkill issues). I'm sure that I have a higher biomass of fish in my pond than the winterkilled pond in question if you just figure on pounds of fish per surface acreage. But, since my pond has 2x to 3x more water volume, that gives me more leeway in regards to available O2 for the fish if you calculate the pounds of fish per gallon of water.

Last year, my pond shrunk to somewhere around 1/2ac to 5/8ac due to the lack of precipitation and the resulting drop in ground water level.




At that low water level, I still had 11' to 12' of water in the deepest part of the pond, and no winterkill even without aeration.

Here's what it looked like a few months later after we had some water come down:


The water level came up roughly 65" from the low water mark. The stick that you see out from the tree in the first picture is a pipe with a 72" aluminum "yardstick" on it. It is compeltely out of the water by about 5" in the first picture. The water level on the stick was 59 3/4" at the time of the last picture.

Leo:

Thanks. Do you want me to dry the samples in an oven in a glass bowl between 200° and 250° or could the samples be damp, not dripping? In any case, they will be double/triple bagged in zip-loc bags.

Excellent! Looks like a few got it nailed on the head. Sandy clay, possibly 15% of loamy sand, with a nice shot of sedimentary quartz. Not sure how fine of the particle sizes it is. What was the last pH level you take for the pond's? Looks like the answer may be shoved into the light soon.

No need to dry it in the oven. Drying it in the oven will make it loose valuable info. Just sun dry, or room temp dry, is more than sufficient. No need it to be moist.

My accounting background leaves me feeling a little lacking in this thread!

Leo, last pH water test was 7.5 in my pond, although I cannot remember when during the day it was taken.

Scott, last few questions to paste the pictures all together with the local knowledge of the gurus here too:

1. What are your stocked fish minimal and optimal DO levels? Remember, it may be a certain level for the northern states but it doesn't mean it's the same for the central and southern states.

2. Temperature between incoming water and the deepest part of the pond on last noted measurement. It can be as far back an late fall or early winter. It'll be better if you have the latest data as the conditions allow you to do so.

3. Location of floating/sinking bodies. Will will give a very definitely detail how they're fighting until the last moment in life. There will be some offset of location found due to wind pushing the body, the general area of death shouldn't be too far off due to ice cap on water surface, or isolation of floating bodies due to icing water.

4. Be brave with one thing, which I forgot. Get a cup of the water near the inlet to the pond. You have to be brave on this one. Put about 2 cups of inlet water in a glass. Cover it up with a food plastic wrap. Nuke it for a good 3 minutes each time, for 2 times. Let it full cool down before removing the plastic wrap. Clean your hands well. Take one finger, dip it into the glass, and taste to see if there is a salty taste to it. Salinity will also be a key factor. If you have salinity test kit or meter, even better.

Ooo..so excite on the info. Such an interesting case!

I'm running out now, but will answer as much as I can when I return. Some of the data I have already.

In the pond in question with the winterkill, there is no inflow of surface water, just whatever groundwater filters thru the sand.