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#274512 11/28/11 11:19 PM
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I have a 4.6 acre pond with approximately 2600 ft of shoreline. The deepest depth I have measured thus far ( still doing soundings) is 14' 7" with an average depth of around 8' ft. The pond is mandade and was built in approximately 1963. It is surrounded by white and red oaks and has a huge floating bolus, almost an island to itself, of dead leaves. Almost all well water around here is treated for hardness; and, some like mine, are treated for hydrogen sulfide in our inhome water treatment systems.

There is no record or recollection of the pond ever being limed, fertilized or aerated. One of my adjoining neighbors has been here since 1994 and doesn't recall any sort of management effort with the pond.

When we moved here in August, the pond was 60-70% covered in what Biologist Extraordinare, Travis, identified as dollar Lilly aka watershield. Our neighbors says he didn't recall ever seeing the watershield until 6-7 years ago.

The fishery is predominantly bluegills, tons of them with some largemouth bass. I haven't fished it that much because of the watershield but Travis caught several small bluegill in the 4-6" range and I have caught tons of the same size since with a couple of 16-20" bass mixed in. Ironically, and to me somewhat strangely, since August, I have seen very little topwater action

The watershield is finally dying off, giving me far greater access so I can begin the process of improvements.

Before I go too much further, I probably need to do some water and soil testing and I would appreciate any input on how to go about this. I have several questions.
1. Is now an OK time to do the testing or should I wait until the spring?
2. Are there private labs that specialize in fishery water testing or can most commercial labs perform the test?
3. For the water tests, what should I specifically ask for? Any special considerations for collecting the sample?
4. For the soil, what is the best way to collect the samp,es and at what depths?
5. Should I use my state extension service or do I need to consider a private lab for the soil? What do I ask for.

Thanks to all for you input.

Regards,
Paul

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The answer to many questions asked is - the archives have tons of info – like Soil and water test links

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92617#Post92617

http://www.soiltest.vt.edu/index.html

That is the place to start. We can help with many questions . Soil test would be a good thing to get done and inexpensive at Va soil test lab.

Last edited by ewest; 11/29/11 10:57 AM.















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Thanks Ewest, that answers part of the soil question. What about the water sample? Amd, how do I collect the soil samples from the pond, particularly in the deeper water?

Regards,
Paul

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Why are you doing soil samples?

As for water sampling your BE should be able to do some field testing.

I would do pH, alkalinity, and an oxygen saturation reading every two feet from top to bottom (this would probably be better if done in the summer).


Brad Vollmar
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I guess because I read it on PB somewhere from one of the pros. I think in the AERATION section.

Regardless, I think the more info/scientific data I can gather on my pond, the better off I will be in getting expert advice in the long run.

Thanks for your reply and suggestions.

Regards,
Paul

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Everything comes from the soil not the water. Test the soil to know what is there and what is not. Water samples are good to but don't tell the whole story. A small diameter pvc pipe can be used. Stick it in the pond bottom and pull it up and put the core in a box or jar. Take samples from different locations around the pond. A dozen should work. Put them all in the box or jar and mix them up well. The rest is set out by the testing center as to just what they want. See the Va Tech testing center link.


Examples








Last edited by ewest; 11/30/11 12:05 PM.















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Thanks Ewest. On their website and the extension services website, there is not an option for testing soil from farm ponds.

I'm going to give the soil lab at VT a call tomorrow and see what I can find out.

Thanks again for your input. Much appreciated.

Regards,
Paul

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I know they do that test as I have seen text that it may be free for farms. Can also check with your Co-Op exten. agent as he will be the point man for helping in most state systems.
















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Ewest, I just had to give you this update.....

Rather than calling the soil testing lab, last Thursday I went to the County Extension office. The office assistant was very helpful, gave me a couple of soil sample boxes and paperwork for submitting samples for HOME LAWNs. She told me she was unfamiliar with pond bottom sampling but would check with one of the agents and have them reach out to me and she sent me on my way.

Later that afternoon, I received a call from one of the agents, an older gentlemen who professes to have been around for quite some time. "In all my years of doing this, I have never had anyone request a soil sample of their pond bottoms...." So he was going to call the lab and find out whether or not they do them, what form I should submit with the sample, yada, yada.

So, after having a weekend to drink copious amounts of beer while watching all my teams get beat in their conference championships, I think what I will do is just send the pond sample to the lab using the HOME LAWN form and insert a note explaining the origination of the sample, etc. I'll also keep some excess of the sample as backup in case they refuse to analyze my sample and I have to go elsewhere.

Surely their are other pond owners in VA who have been through this before?

Regards to all,
Paul

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I went to my county extension office and they looked at me like I was asking for a 2 headed snake. I stopped at the local farm fertilizer store that just basically services farms and they gave me the phone number of the lab that they use in Ft. Wayne.

Despite what you think would be normal, it seems that the government people (at least around here) do NOT know more than the private sector..... And that's as far as I'm going on that line of discussion.


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I don't mind paying the additional cost for a private lab. In fact, I would probably much prefer that to a govt one that doesn't have the experience level.

Any suggestions from anyone on a private lab?

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Do a search for Brookside Labs in New Knoxville Ohio, Have used them for past 30 years for both soils and water.You can work directly with them or they have consultants all over the US.

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Thanks Ted, I will get in contact with them.

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Ewest:

Many thanks for your referral to the LSU AG Center lab. They have been fantastic.(Being a HUGE Bama fan, it just pains me to say this..)Like all things for me 'pondage', this has been a great learning experience made tons easier by all of you here.

For any newbies like me who may be reading this, as I have rapidly come to learn, not all Extension Services are created equal. The folks on this board have done a good job of compiling contact info for all the state extension service soil labs. Some, like my home state, do not have a clue what you are talking about when you ask "can you test the soil off the bottom of my pond?" Others will not accept samples from out of state. The bottom line is you should call your state lab in advance of submitting a sample. If you don't feel comfortable with what they tell you (I certainly didn't with mine, don't waste any more time or effort. Send your sample, along with your ten bucks, straight to LSU. When I called them and asked if they accepted out of state samples, this very friendly gentleman was proud to inform me they accepted samples from all over the world. They were professional and just all round helpful in walking me through how to collect and package my soil and water samples.

Below is my not too good report of the soil from LSU. Tomorrow, I expect the report for the water sample. I have already spoken with the lab and will have a more in-depth conversation with them on Friday or Monday on various recommended remedies. Will share their recommendations with all when I receive them.

Once again, thanks to everyone. I really appreciate everyone's help and input into this.

Warmest Regards.
Paul

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Good news - glad they helped - that is why we are here.
















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Folks, hot off the press...both the soil and water samples just in. Not very pretty.

I'm going to try to get a remedy brief from the lab tomorrow or Monday. Will fill you in on their recommendations.

In the interim, comments/advice please?

Please note that liming via pontoon boat and trash pump is NOT an option and I only have vehicular access to the western half of the pond which also is where the overflow is located.

Regards,
Paul





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Pretty much what I would expect from a pond as old as yours that has had years and years of tannic oak leaves and pine needles falling into it. Plus, all the aquatic vegetation rotting in it over the years. Throw in the soils in our area tend to be on the acidic side to begin with and there you go... Going to take a lot of lime to bring up the pH. A big question is just how much turn over does your pond have? In other words, in say a 1 week period, what percentage of the pond's water volume gets replaced by incoming water sources on average? If there is a very large turn over rate, it may be extremely difficult to bring up the pH. That low pH sure makes those BG that pretty darker coloration though.

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Wow, that is pretty acidic. I would worry about changing the PH too much in such a large ecosystem since you have so far to go to hit 7. Maybe shoot for 1-1.5 per season or something to let the pond settle out. Not to mention my tropical fish do very poorly if I change my PH more than 0.5 at a time, though admittedly it happens very fast in small aquarium.

At least if you add lime the alkalinity will increase as it combines with acidic compounds and then will buffer the PH a bit better around 7. Keeping that in mind due to low alkalinity it may not lake as much lime to get the pond in a reasonable state of PH. If it has survived this long at a really low PH, it will be fine raising it slowly.

Hmm, it would be interesting to toss in a load of my pulverized limestone clay from my pond. Would probably foam like crazy!

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CJ, the pond is not perennial flow. (that's the key verbiage we are dealing with in regards to the Resource Protection Area under the Chesapeake Bay Preservation Act...a whole different issue in getting the electrical permits for the aeration system). It has very little outflow. The watershed is strictly from local runoff, not stream fed.So the turnover rate is very small. This AM, by using the 'how long does it take to fill a 5 gallon bucket' measuring method, I have about 3GPM of flow.That's after last night's rain.

I guess my much bigger question, and will broach with LSU, if the liming recommendation is based on soil that is not submerged in water, how much lime is it going to take and at what intervals, for a 10 million gallon watershed to get the pH to where it needs to be?

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We dont get this compliacted hard to predict pH more important how much lime to get alkalinity to over 20ppm. I recommend 6 tons/acre so 28 tons round down to closest truck load of 24-25 tons. It sounds like alot but this should get back into the range you need and hopefully future plan every two years add 8-10 tons or whenever alkalinity drops below 20. Your high rentention time helps greatly.


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Originally Posted By: Freedomeagle


I guess my much bigger question, and will broach with LSU, if the liming recommendation is based on soil that is not submerged in water, how much lime is it going to take and at what intervals, for a 10 million gallon watershed to get the pH to where it needs to be?


I'm confused. Was the soil sample sent to LSU taken from the pond bottom or shoreline?
Based on LSU's numbers given in your report, it will take about ton/acre to raise the pH approximately 0.50. Given your present pH at 5.31, it will take about 3 applications just to get it to 6.5 which is the bottom of the usual acceptable range. As was previously stated, it is also equally important to raise the Alkalinity to at least 20. Any purposeful altering of pH should be a very slow an gradual process. Abrupt changes in pH (even 0.50) could have a severe negative impact on the entire eco-system.
I find it interesting the LSU does not include any findings for Ammonia or Nitrite in their water test results.

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Greg, how am I going to get the tonnage into the pond. In the photo, the well demarced, rather straight road on the west side of the pond is the dam. The overflow pipe is about mid way. The only vehicular access is that area as well as some of the area around to the house. Since the current outflow is relatively insignificant, can I just dump in selected areas along the western edge and then rely on the aeration to help circulate?

Instar, the soil sample was taken from the pond bottom that is currently covered in 10 million gallons of water. LSU's lime recommendation is based on bare, accessible soil, ie put it down and till it in. In my case, that ain't possible. They didn't do the ammonia or nitrite samples because I didn't request them.

Thanks for you input.

Regards,
Paul

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FYI-
"It is more difficult to apply lime in ponds that are full of water, but this is more often when ponds are limed. The lime needs to be spread across the entire pond surface as evenly as possible. Remember, you are liming the soil, not the water! For small ponds (less than 1 acre), it may be possible to back the spreader truck up to the pond in several locations and broadcast the lime. For larger ponds, it will be necessary to load the lime onto a boat or barge and then shovel or wash the lime uniformly into the pond.

If you have one or two jonboats, you can make a simple liming barge. One boat works well but cannot handle very much lime at a time. Two boats tied together is best, because these boats can handle more lime per trip. Attach a large sheet of heavy plywood (½ inch or larger) across the bow of the boat(s), and load a safe amount of lime. You can shovel the lime across the pond or use a spray washer. Using a standard water or trash pump, pull water from the pond and spray across the lime pile, washing it into the pond."
- Mississippi State University Extension Service

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Thanks Instar. As I said earlier, that is not a workable solution in this situation. Am working on Plan B.

Thanks again for your input.

Paul

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Just attempting to emphasize the point that unless the lime is spread evenly and uniformly across the pond's surface less than desirable results will be realized. You may need to hire a contractor that has the required equipment to do this project for you.

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