Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site How big n where should I seek a WE, SMB, HSB pond

Good evening all,

So here's the run down. I have been on here for the last couple months just kind of absorbing information and have ultimately become determined to have my own pond. My fiance and I are contemplating moving to Iowa, from Virginia and she wants to start a vineyard and we are seeking land there. I told her that I would like to have a fishing pond if we are going to be investing in land anyways. My dream pond would have GSH, FHM, YP, GSF as the forage fish and hopefully get some YP and GSF big enough to eat. I would like to have SMB, WE and HSB as the predators as they would be the most fun to catch, I figure I can get some recruitment of the SMB and then the WE and HSB will be a put and take thing. I would like to harvest all the predators for eating, maybe 2-4 lbs of fish a week max. What I really want is 1 fish per 10 hours of fishing that will pretty much rip the pole out of your hand, 1 fish every 2 hours that will put up a heck of a fight and then 1 fish and hour that would be fun to catch and possibly harvest-able in size. The YP and GSF would be fished for using light tackle and it would be fun for me to catch and the kids we will have in a few years. I would like to get 8 inch GSF 12 inch YP for eating, and the WE, SMB would be 16", 3+ lbs for eating. I don't know how big HSB are for eating but everything I have read on here says they are a ton of fun to catch. My question is how big of a pond, how deep of a pond would I need to do this and will central to northeast Iowa be a feasible location for this goal? Depending on what we end up spending on the land, feeding to start with would be possible, but I would like it to be self sustaining after the first 2 years, aeration will be doable absolutely. The other question I had is would it cost a ton of money to build a pond like this from scratch and what would be the cheapest way to make a pond like this if we wanted to build it from scratch? Would I be better off searching for a spring fed stream and build a pond from that? Most of the land in Iowa has clay in it from what I understand. SOOOOOOOOOO I know that was a ton of questions, but since we are going to be searching for land over the next couple months I figured this was a great time to do some research. I have been dreaming since I started reading on here of my fiance saying, "I want some walleye tonight" and I can go out to the yard and pull in a WE or two for dinner.

Thanks all! KRS

Goals are feasable. GSF as a standard, reliable, forage fish is managing in fairly unknown territory. Not a lot is known about best habitat for GSF. My experiences are they do not grow to 8" very fast. But with optimum conditions individuals to this size are likely in 4 yrs. Anyone with help for growth rates for GSF? HBG may be a better choice instead of GSF? With a healthy populations of SMB & HSB, food for WE could become limiting and result in slowed growth. Plan on a healthy population of crayfish.

Plan on freezing some of the catch for periods when fish are not co-operating in the harvest. Regarding the harvest of 2-4 lbs of fish/week -is that live fish or cleaned (fillets)?

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2-4 lbs of live fish, fillets no way! haha. I wanted to go with GSF because of their fusiform shape making it easier for all of the smaller mouthed fish to eat them. I will definitely stock up on crayfish, and I wasn't planning on releasing the predators until the spring of the following year for the forage fish. Give the little guys a solid head start. Any ideas of what to look for in a pond that I would be buying on the land? Depths, size those sorts of things? Would I be better off trying to build my own?

Buying an existing pond IMO has many drawbacks, many of them hidden or unknown - primarily chemical history, improper planning and initial construction methods, and a leak potential. It is best to see a pond during drought conditions. Unfavorable fisheries can always be renovated and started over. Purchased ponds are acceptable, but be sure to do your home work before buying. If I was buying a pond I would require the owner to provide a sediment chemistry analyses for chemical residues from two locations; one shallow, one deep. IMO many existing ponds that are not properly cared for are a liability and price decreaser, not an asset to the property. Especially if the pond needs renovation, dredging, or rebuilding due to poor management or poor initial planning and construction techniques. IMO - only a few ponds of the total are well managed.

Since no one else is providing input, I think 2-3 acres would be large enough for your goals in an all natural, medium productivity pond. Fertilization is not normally recommended in ponds that have extended ice and snow cover. Low productivity (clear water 4-6ft vis) requires more acres for your planned harvest rate. One acre could work, IF, repeat IF, it is well managed and fish are fed. Fed fish are plentiful, and large quality fish, when managed properly. IMO For normal plant zone 4 or 5 northern winters the pond should be 15 - 20ft deep over 10%-30% of the surface acres. Average depth of 6-8ft is optimum for zones 4-5. Steep slopes of 2.5-3:1 are best to minimize weed growth problems. All the weed FA problems and most headaches for the owner that a pond has occur in shallow water.

In theory GSF could work as a significant forage species, but IMO it is pretty 'dicey' and you know what they say about the best laid plans of mice and men. I would not use GSF if it were my pond. I've had to many bad experiences with them. If you have a 2-3 acre pond and the fishery goes awry, the ease of renovating is not the same as if the pond was 0.2-0.5 acre. Do you realize that until a GSF is 9"-9.5" long its mouth gape is the same as that of a LMB? That makes this aggressive, temperamented GSF, the largest gaped fish in your planned pond for all fish up to 9"-10". Don't believe me, do some measuring and data collection.

Also don't plan on going out to the pond and catching WE anytime you feel the urge to invite WE for dinner. Won't happen. YP & SMB maybe, not WE. Thus fish in the freezer as mentioned above.

KRS

First off, congrats on your pending move to the Midwest! I'm just West of IA in Lincoln NE so look forward to learning where you end up.

You are fortunate to have Bill Cody provide such valuable feedback - he's an expert and I'd advise to follow it all to a "T".

My feedback for what it's worth:

Really like your fishery goals. I agree you should be looking at 2-5 acres. I have a SMB fishery with all these same species with a couple wrinkles:

I have BG, RES and GSH serving as my forage base in addition to a steady pellet program.

Observations:

RES doing great - good growth and population is regulated with moderate spawns and predation. A great panfish with no negative impacts IMO.

4-6" BG are overpopulated - chalk up this decision to stock to inexperience. My YP, WE, SMB and HSB are doing decent work on the 1-3" BG, but limited gape and preference for fusiform forage renders anything 4"+ bulletproof. Heavy angling and trapping still doesn't dent population. I now am now going to have to stock single sex LMB to help curb their population something that is very risky.

GSH population is strong and provides the backbone of my fishery. If I had to do this over again I'd have stocked Spotfin Shiners...but they aren't commercially available to my knowledge. They max at about half the size of GSH so even adults serve as forage, unlike my adult GSH which are up towards 9" now.

I also have a strong papershell crayfish and grass shrimp forage base.


I understand your reasoning with GSF - but Bill is of course correct on his reservations and I'd reconsider. My suggestion would be to establish GSH, Crayfish and Grass Shrimp populations in addition to RES.

I really like Bill's HBG suggestion. If I were to do it all again that's exactly what I'd do. The HBG will provide great angling, fillets, and ice fishing action too without the drawback of BG overpopulation. You can supplementally stock HBG as necessary to establish different size classes.

Side note: Harvesting YP should be an easy task for you if the WE prove elusive [which they will]. In my estimation YP fillets easily rival WE and they are far more plentiful/easy to catch. You can definitely go from pond to peanut oil to plate routinely.

I am eager to see your plans...good luck and keep us posted!

Ditto what Bill and TJ said.

KRS -- good stuff from Bill and TJ. My only addition would be on pond size. We are having better luck with walleye and smallmouth bass as primary predators in bigger ponds. So, if you can afford more than 2-3 acres, grab it! We have one pond we manage (not own, darn it) at 17 acres and another at 22 acres, and they really can produce walleyes and smallies for us. I don't have enough hybrid striped bass experience to help there.

KRS few other thoughts:

You likely won't get WE recruitment, however advanced fingerlings are routinely available in the Fall [8-10"] and if you only have SMB and HSB as apex predators they should be plenty safe from predation. That's the supplemental stocking plan I'm following at least.

If you want to try and create some areas that reliably hold WE [per your post] you should plan thoughtfully during engineering phase. Rock piles in deeper water will hold SMB, YP and WE year round and especially in the winter.

2:1 slopes help immensely with vegetation issues.

Plan on buying a Texas Hunter or Sweeney feeder before you even fill your pond.

Dr Willis nailed it of course - if you are so fortunate as to be able to create a 10+ acre lake this project has all the makings of a truly unique fishery we can all learn from. Otherwise I reiterate my previous post and say do your darnest to get up to 5+ acres with plenty of deeper water [per Bill].

Thank you all for the input!

So I guess going with what you all have mentioned, is this same theory feasible at a smaller scale, say 1 acre or so? I haven't found hardly any land with a 1.5+ acre pond on it let alone a 5+ acre pond. I doubt that I could afford to build a 3-5 acre pond either. Another question is would it even be worth having a bluegill or sunfish species at all? With the YP and the other forage species and supplemental feeding, could I still maintain a quality fishery? Harvesting as it seems 2-4 lbs of live fish a week may be pushing it, but if I harvest less, would I still be able to have the large fish that are fun to catch in the smaller 1 acre pond with these species? I would want to go pretty deep 15-20 ft deep as Mr. Cody mentioned, but I don't think building much over an acre is going to be in my budget.

Thanks again all!

Those species will work in one acre of 16-18 ft deep. All sides do not have to be 2:1 slope, some can be 2:5-3:1. One ledge 3-6 ft deep would be good enough as habitat. A "flat" wider slope or deep ledge 8-12 ft deep for rock piles - PVC structures would be good for WE, YP, RES. When you make them shallow they often become infested with FA and not very fishable. Plan for some stretches of shallow rock lined shores for crayfish - small fish habitat; downwind side works good. When you reduce size you reduce amount of fish grown to be harvested. If fed, HSB will grow large and not be a major predator influence due to their welfare status assuming well fed fish. For a fishery with strong harvest goals, I would add RES as a snail predator to reduce fish-flesh parasite problems, unless you have good control of visiting waterfowl. A good northern strain (important) of RES should survive winters in a deeper Iowa pond. Northern strain survive well in northern OH & IN. Dr Willis notes that he has never seen RES overpopulate. This planned fishery combination would be a good test of his experiences. Good luck and keep us advised of the progress of your dream.

Thanks for the input Mr. Cody, I will look into getting that book you advised on above, and I will seek out land with what I can find for a pond, or look to build per your suggestions above. RES sound pretty decent for forage, do they get as big as bluegill? Anyone else have any thoughts on this subject?

KRS -- try this link for a very good report on northern redear sunfish (Michigan).

http://www.michigandnr.com/publications/pdfs/IFR/ifrlibra/technical/reports/2003-3tr.pdf

RES get larger than BG in the right conditions and with ample forage, they won't overpopulate, will forage on snails that can introduce parasites to other fish, and are a very cool fish! Only downside is you will not catch them typically with the same frequency of BG they aren't quite as aggressive and population will likely be smaller. If you are not stocking LMB in your fishery you don't really have much of a choice for panfish species. Experts can chime in about Longear or other Sunfish species which may fit the panfish in a pond without LMB niche, but I know nothing about those other species or their roles in a fishery.

Dave this is a great study. I took away the following:

RES can be stocked in areas typically thought of as out of their range. Of 57 lakes stocked in Michigan [with only 150 frost free days] 40 had reproducing populations establish themselves. With their Northern range expanded, this opens up an entirely new tool for pond management strategy for N pond managers.

RES grow 2x faster than BG and more still than PS.

RES demonstrate no adverse affects on other panfish species as their forage base is unique.

RES seemingly do not overpopulate and stunt which is common characteristic of other Lepomis.

RES benefit fisheries by foraging on snails which introduce trematodes to other fish [black spot - yellow grub].

RES are thoroughly enjoyed by TJ Hudson, and that's a big deal.

RES promised to buy TJ a new Toyota Tundra if he sang their praises.

RES promised not to fin TJ next time he swims in his ponds.

RES promised to cease with the intimidating phone calls in the middle of the night.

Jeez I turn my back on you folks for ten minutes and you're bashing GSF again.

TJ, that reminds me of the great RES thread we had going a few years back, where the heck is that thread?

Oh yeah, that was a good one. RES are evil...they are hell bent on maiming!

Hmm, I like the RES info above, but the only problem is that when I start having kids and they want to fish, the only thing that they are going to be able to catch with any regularity will be the perch. My experience with YP was that the small ones will hit anything pretty much year round, haven't really caught one in my life over about 10 inches. The RES from that article were all stocked in larger lakes, but they mentioned many times that they are much more difficult to catch than the usual panfish. How "difficult" are they to catch really, will my kids be able to toss a bobber and worm out and catch them with ease/regularity? I personally will want to go after the WE/SMB/HSB and the large YP, the panfish would be more for forage and for the kids to catch (thus the GSF idea). Any thoughts? What is your guys experience with catching RES?

Like Bill Cody says, that all depends. Typically, RES are stocked at 1/10 the ratio of BG. My theory is this: BG typically inhabit shallower water than RES. BG usually see the lure/bait before RES, and since BG grab just about anything that will fit in their mouths, they are caught more frequently.

I catch RES in my pond if I keep the lure/worm near the bottom where RES inhabit, and if I really think about it, I probably catch 1 RES for every 9 or 10 BG caught. So, I think that if you stocked RES at the same density as BG, you'd catch them just as easily as BG.

With your goals why not stock just RES. Higher numbers should 'push' more fish higher into the shallows and also make them more aggressive, although the possibility of higher numbers will probably result in slower growth. For GSF, have you ever fished numerous ponds with GSF? When they are mostly large there are few of them, when abundant lots are 3"-6". I would rather catch an 6"-8" YP than a 5" GSF. HBG may be a better fish for your goals. Or change your goals? - see below. Anyone out there reading this that has HBG and RES combination?

Soap box. Regarding ponds, fisheries and goals; many unknowingly want too many idealistic goals - i.e. their cake, lots of it to eat anytime, someone to buy it, bake it, frost it, and feed it to them, then have it all things cleaned up when full. Often sacrifices have to be made i fisheries or realistic pond management or adjustments made to the goals. Bottom line you may have to adjust your goals, or experiment with the risks involved.

In my experiences with YP and some of the other species, they can be managed where a large percentage are bigger fish - 10"-14". Although in these cased sometimes the predator base suffers or is less than ideal. Again sacrifices come into play. A second option is if you get land, build two ponds (0.2 ac, 0.6-0.9ac) - one kid fishing and one requiring a little more angling skill. Smaller pond later can be used as a forage pond.

I think this is an issue that doesn't get enough discussion.

It seems to me that often folks want both high catch rates and trophy fish. This doesn't seem particularly realistic to me (especially if the trophy fish is LMB). Or folks want multiple species of trophy sized fish in one pond. I question how likely it is for that to occur in a pond of say 3 acres or less. And even if a pond meister is able to obtain a trophy sized species how long would the average pond meister be able so sustain such a pond. IMHO to achieve and sustain either (1) a high catch rate or (2) a trophy sized species would take either dumb luck or intensive management.

But that my opinion and as most folks know I'm JAIWAK.

Oh and by the way krsbigred, I am in no way intending to insult you or your pond goals. All of us would like to have a pond that had you catch rate goals. I just wonder (for all of us) how likely it is that the average pond meister could obtain and sustain such a goal.

And an also and besides (just in case you don't know), I'm a fan of GSF and still think pound per pound they are one of the best fighting sunfish to swim the earth.

I think HBG would be your best bet. I know, big shock hearing that from me. I have RES in my hybrid pond, but their numbers are few, approx a 25:1 ratio with my HBG. I saw some on the nests early this spring, and I caught one just a couple weeks ago, but I look at them like I do my LMB, just as management tools, not as an angling opportunity, and I do not specifically target them as such.

If you're going to stock WE and HSB, then you're already going to have those species as a put and take fishery, so utilizing HBG would fall right in line with your existing plans. They grow large, fight tremendously, have limited reproduction, readily take supplemental feed, and are delicious on the table.

As far as using RES only, I think that could work, if you got their numbers high enough, but once their numbers get that high, what do they eat? They won't readily take artificial feed, so I can't see their ultimate size potential ever truly being attainable in your situation.

Bill and Jeff are right on the money. It's natural to want it all - balanced fishery with trophy panfish and predators! Who doesn't? Important to note sacrafices will have to be made. In my case I have stunted BG population, but my SMB, YP and HSB are doing very well and the RES are growing with the grass shrimp and crayfish to target. So, I have a tradeoff...in the end I feel pretty lucky.

I agree with Bill Jeff and Sprk - go RES higher stocking rates and HBG sound super cool here too.

You need to consider Bill's idea of specialty mini ponds. I have three of them and I am SO glad I did instead of sinking all capital into my main pond and merely making it another acre larger. Mini ponds rock. Bruce Condello grew a 15 lb HSB in his mini pond, Cody and Cecil grew 15" YP, Aaron Matos grew 2 lb BG and RES in his mini mini pond....way easier to manage and start over if necessary.

Hmmm, this made me think (and everyone knows that is dangerous).

What if I wrote some new lyrics.
What if I got Dave and the El Dorados to give a new spin on a classic song.
Could we have a hit on our hands?

Sung to Queen's I WANT IT ALL.

I want it all,
I want it all,
I want it all,
and I want it NOW.

Just a pond meister that want's a pond that can't be beat,
Just an shoreline creeper with some mud on his feet.

Pond meisters stocking forage with no time for doubt,
Wanting trophy sunfish, largemouth bass and maybe trout.

It ain't much I'm asking I heard him say,
Gonna build me a fishin haven so get out of my way!

I want it all,
I want it all,
I want it all,
and I want it NOW.

I want it all,
I want it all,
I want it all,
and I want it NOW!

Listen all you pond meisters come gather round,
I gotta design a management plan and raise some fish that will astound.

Just gimme a stocking plan with some fish that are fine,
Gotta grow me a bunch of lunkers weighing eight pounds, maybe nine.

It ain't much I'm asking if you want the truth,
Gonna manage my honey hole for the benefit of our youth.

I want it all (give it all),
I want it all,
I want it all,
and I want it NOW.

I want it all (yes I want it all),
I want it all (hey),
I want it all,
and I want it NOW.

I'm a man on a mission with a one track mind,
Wanna high catch rate fishing hole that'll last a life time (Do you hear me people?)

Not a man for compromise, and where's and why's, and living lies,
So I'm living it all (yes I'm living it all),
And I'm spending it all (and I'm giving it all),

Yeah, yeah,
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
I want it all, all, all, all.

It ain't much I'm asking if you want the truth,
I wanna redefine relative weight tables and offer photos up for proof.

I want it all,
I want it all,
I want it all,
and I want it NOW.

I want it all, (Pond Boss help me),
I want it all (Wild Bill school me),
I want it all (Ewest link me),
and I want it NOW.

I want it NOW!!!




JHAP has left the building.

Woahhhhh fellas, I don't want big RES, and the others species I want for predators, I don't want them huge. The RES and YP are mainly going to be forage fish and just for the rare nice size fish. The Predators are going to be the main game fish. I don't want a ton of trophies, just a few that I can catch here and there. My main goal is to just have a solid fishery. My question was what to use for forage really, since I know most panfish won't fit the bill for a go WE, SMB, HSB meal. I really don't see catching giant panfish, and I don't really anticipate catching large YP with the exception of the rare lucky one that gets big. I want mainly big SMB, WE, HSB. For the kids, 3-6inch panfish and perch will be fun for them, does that clarify things a bit? I don't want it all lol. Sorry for the confusion!