Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Establishing Golden Shiners

Full Circle, I had to look up Sasrittaria and I see there are more then one family of them. If this is one you are thinking of, it seems to be on the endangered list. But in a protected pond they might be OK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittaria_secundifolia

Just from my experience with the Corkscrew so far I wouldn't plant any closer then 8 feet apart since it looks like they are great spreader and should be even better next year. I didn't have enough plants to go all the way around my pond but with the roughly 50 plants the were about to go dry & I just transplanted I was able to mostly circle the pond.

The reason I got interested in the Corkscrew is a couple of guys on the forum thought it was the best of water plants. Perhaps they or anyone that has experience with this plant (Vallisneria, Corkscrew (Vallisneria americana var. biwaensis) could describe their experiences. So far this plant seems to good to be true.

Retirement is as much or more fun then when I was a kid.

John- I was looking at the more common forms of Sag (I think the forum is calling it arrowhead) but am interested in the submerged types (possibly one of the subulatas) which have a more grass-like form. As I am in the process of moving from a zone 10 environ (outside of Malibu, Ca) to central Texas (zone 7B), I want to stay with more hardy plants until I get a better feel for the change. Thanks for all of your help – I look forward to your updates.

John- BTW, funny thing about retirement….When I was a kid, school was something I had to attend. Now, I can’t seem to learn enough…

I have not had quite the intense first season growth you are experiencing in your pond. In my experience, the first year growth was rather slow. It was the second year growth improved. It was then that the corkscrew eel grass took off and spread. It hasn't spread nearly as much as 8'. 3-4' has been my experience.

I would never discount someones observations or theories...When they are not supported by well proved fact though, it also needs to be pointed out to avoid and help prevent others from having unexpected, unwanted or unintended results. In this particular instance (this and prior related threads), some "conclusions" and "theories have run counter to many well established, provable and known facts in some areas. We would never want to quell interesting new thoughts and possibilities...equally, if claims or conclusions are made, for any reason or by any person, that are clearly misleading, there must be clarification made and "warnings" added as to the voracity and likelihood of the claims/conclusions.

From all the research I have found, pepsin is the only enzyme that can break down "most" algae species protein barriers and then only in an "extremely" acidic enviornment....these conditions exist in very very few fish and not one mentioned outside of some tilapia species can produce those conditions.

Unfortunately there is a woeful lack in recent aquatic research and much of it is outdated and plain ole inaccurate. Many "studies now are compilations of earlier work that is not always accurate as well...Hopefully that trend is changing again.

I can "digest" sand....I can "eat" it too...what I can not do is live on it...that is the point I have tried to make...these fish, I could never consider "algae eaters"...my opinion...ymmv

CJBS2003 - How well did they overwinter for you? Is the growth spread out or do you have dense patches? How deep did you plant yours (water depth)? I hope that you don't mind that I am asking so many questions....

Thry seeemed to over winter fine. They're just slow to come back to life in spring. I planted them in 1-3' of water. Bill Cody has far more experience with them, maybe he'll weigh in.

I have some eelgrass from Bill Cody that has spent the last year in a plastic wash tub in the pond. I'll be pulling it out of the pond tomorrow and I'll see how it's doing. I need to remove it due to a fluridone treatment for milfoil. It'll reside in another BOW until it's safe for it to return.

Full Circle I am the same way. I can't get enough information. My problem is it doesn't stick so well anymore.

If I remember right the instruction that came with the Corkscrew Ell Grass said to plant it just to the crown or something like that. When I started planting I was barely able to keep my head above water at times,(the water was cold and I was in a wet suit) and so I was just stuffing the plants into the mud and I thought this isn't going to be good. But they don't seem to care. I planted in some sand where I once had a beach and in muck/mud and they grow well in both. In sand they aren't rooted as well and I have knocked some loose launching and beaching my boat. Once I had the plants planted I walked around the pond and some had floated up to the surface so I replanted them.

I would like to say also, that the area I had the 55 flags marking the individual plants that when you just walked by and looked at them you would think you were looking at 8 or 10 plants. But when you really got down close all the plants came into view. Many new plants were just up an inch or so.

Oh, do I relate to that! Worse yet, I have found that much I was taught as “fact” just 30 or 40 years ago is now myth. One of my sons is working on dual masters in math and physics and has pointed out a few of these myths (quantum, especially, is progressing so rapidly). The good thing is that it has forced me to remain flexible in my thinking and to continue to learn. I am not sure who uses the quote in regard to cement and minds on this forum, but it is one I appreciate and what I strive to avoid. Thank you for sharing your experiences – you’ve given me a great deal to consider. I apologize if I have hijacked your thread in any way.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences- I’ll be prepared for the variability in growth. Now about that Black Crappie…. (just joking!!)

Full circle, you are getting ready to build your pond & I wish I could start over again. I should have had mine in writing. It was built wrong. It was to be dozed out, the top soil put aside and the dirt blended into the field to create a natural runoff for water. We went on vacation and when we came back it was bermed so we couldn’t get the natural flowing water shed from the 12 acre field. So that is the reason I am having to replant some of the of the Corkscrew Ell grass. The pond usually drops about three feet doing the summer. I ditched the field and run the water in back of my pond then pumped it into my pond but that got to be a hassle so I stopped. So from my experience for pond builders dot the I’s a cross the T’s.

Full Circle, just one last thought, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around the “quantum cat in a box theory.”

John - Thank you for the warning - we’re putting off the actual construction until we can be there full time. It’s a shame that the contractor didn’t heed your wishes – the original design of your pond sounds strong. I wouldn’t have guessed that there were any regrets by the looks of your pond. If ours comes out even half as nice as yours, I’ll be very happy. I think your signature says it all- “Serenity Now”.

I am sure we will still end up with some “if only, would’ve, could’ve” but, hopefully, not too many. One of my major concerns is ensuring that our pond gets enough attention to detail as we are planning on building our permanent home simultaneously (just one of the reasons for all of the pre-planning - but the main reason is I am just that way). We may have to separate these 2 jobs calendar-wise so the contractors are not stepping on one another…but there is going to need to be some type of communication between the two. I’m thinking pond first, house second (there is another house on the property for the interim). I am much more comfortable with the house aspects as I’ve “been there, done that” and am aware of the pitfalls but the pond is a new one for me. I will probably formally introduce myself closer to build-time, and ask for the horror stories.

Oh, and wasn’t that Schrodinger a fun guy!

Pond first, house second is especially good if you need some extra fill dirt to raise the level of the house (i.e. for a basement).

The topsoil from the basin area of the pond could be spread around the house to increase the topsoil level if needed.

The house is being situated on a pre-existing “turtle shell” with the land sloping off and away on all sides. 300 feet from the front side of the proposed house, there is a steep hill where most of the watershed runs. When it rains, the water coming off the hill is naturally diverted around the house site and we’ll capture it in the proposed pond below. I’d post the topo but it isn’t as descriptive as when you walk the property (doesn’t really show the turtle-shell). When we were purchasing our property, our agent told us he had actually been there 30 or so years ago when the river (which is our lowest property boundary) breached and this site was like an island surrounded by shallow water (just a few inches). Given that the river is 800 feet from this point and 30’ below according to the topo, it must’ve been quite the rain (the 100-year storm?). So, long story short, we would like to use any dirt left over to “bump up” the site and to reinforce that water shed path. ‘Was thinking about doing some type of silt containment where the 2 slopes meet – any thoughts?

We are hoping to find topsoil. Most of the property sits on “cemented caliche” and clay but we do have a 25 acre pasture that sits adjacent to the pond site and immediately above the river with actual soil (from the river breaching??) and the occasional odd pocket of real soil so hopefully….

A smaller pond or 2 that will slow down the velocity of the moving water will allow the silt to fall out of suspension. Making the entrapment ponds in a shape that allows them to be easily cleaned out every few years will help. Don't forget to plan for the surrounding vegitation near those ponds to be severely disturbed when the ponds are cleaned out. Catmandoo has some very good ideas and plans for silt trap ponds.

Look in areas of the property that could have been low pockets when the river flooded. Those areas will fill up first with sediment. If the water was that high before, plan on it getting that high again....... If that water could get into the proposed pond, make sure it won't blow out the dam. Unfortunately, there won't be much you can do about unwanted fish species going into the pond if that happens, but you should be able to plan so the pond doesn't get blown out.

Full Circle if there is anything you want in you pond before it fills you want to plan ahead. In my case I had two dump trucks loads of sand for my beach, a dump truck of limestone gravel ready to spread in segments around the pond for bluegill to spawn on and a dump truck of softball size stone for fish to hide and mess around in. I had rocks, stones, brick and blocks ready to build several artificial reefs, and I had my 6x6 posts for my deck screen house ready to dig in. Once the water started to rise I still was almost in a panic to get things finish before they were under water. And when the pond is dug it's hard to tell just where the high water line is going to be so that has to be figured and marked so you can tell where everything goes.

Esshup- I found Catmandoo’s posts – thank you! Fortunately, the land lends itself well for at least one entrapment pond and there is 3½ acres available for a wet land zone. As this parcel abuts an area where the does keep their fawns, I’d like to make the wet land/meadow area deer friendly (more research ahead). I am feeling better about the pond placement as all of the other pieces seem to fit naturally.

Prior to the last owner who had the property for 2 years, the land was held by the same family for the past 120+ years. According to the older folk, that one flood event was unusual but, yes, all of our plans are based on it happening again. As the pasture is at the lowest point on the property and borders the river, it is the first to flood but, as the pond will be second in line, we will definitely look twice at the dam on that side. The image of the pond blowing out that you conjured up caused a great deal of conversation around here – thank you for the excellent reality check. We will be heeding John’s warning to dot our i’s and cross the t’s. Again, I appreciate all of your help and insights.

John- We have a generalized blueprint, if you will, and it just keeps on growing…lol. After reading your post, I decided that I had better add a beach. If I may ask, how much coverage did you get with 2 loads of sand? So far, we have spawning, nursery, and vegetative coverage areas for FHM, GSH, gams, grass/glass shrimp and CNBG/RES laid out, campgrounds for HSB, as well as various humps, swells, benches, ledges, and stumpy areas etc., for underwater entertainment. As I can’t foresee how the pond will evolve, I have also included habitat/structure for a couple of controversial fish. I figure that even if we don’t ever add them, the area will still be utilized by someone and, on the off chance that we do, we're prepared. We also will be using cinderblock from a decrepit milking shed that is slated for demolition for our reef areas but perhaps we should add the larger stone, too??

I’ll be planting a lot of Iris on the banks as a way to visually demarcate the “brood” areas. I think it will be easier to ask the kids when they come to visit not to fish by the areas with Iris rather than trying to describe to them what areas to avoid. Also, I am considering building a couple of floating islands and tethering them near the deeper structures for identification purposes but I may use rubber ducks temporarily if time becomes an issue.

Initially, I’d thought about a floating dock since it self-adjusts to the water level, but given my situation (degenerative neuro issue), we’ll be putting a permanent structure in. Are you happy with the 6x6’s? I still need to research this (dock structures) further. I haven’t fully defined our needs, yet, but Polaris access is required. Wish-list features include a screened gazebo and room for at least 12 people...

Thank you so much for your input - I appreciate all of the help that you have provided.

Cal the PB office and get the back issue that has info on building docks. There was at least one made that would support an ATV.......

I've got the plans in the works to build a floating dock for my pond. I bought all the hardware from here:
http://www.dockbuilders.com/

They will design one for you too if you want.

Thanks - I found and ordered the issue on line (Mar/Apr 09) - I think this makes the 24th back issue that I've ordered??. I'll keep the address to dock builders and contact when we are closer to that time. Again, many thanks!

If you don't subscribe, you should. It'd be cheaper in the long run!

Esshup - ‘Did that back in June – I just wish I had subscribed earlier. Also, I purchased “the book” and, after realizing that the amount of information available on the forum saved me from purchasing several dozen books, I made a donation so I think I am good to go so far…

Full Circle it sounds like you are very well prepared to build your pond. The 6x6 treated posts in my pond have held up well for the 15 years they have been in place. My deck/gazebo (12'x12'deck and 12'x12' gazebo) was 12'x 24' overall using 6x6/s spaced 6 feet apart and they were braced with 2"x10's forming a sort of triangle under and above water. The 6"x6" were dug in 4 feet deep with the bottom of the hole flared out and half a sack of dry concrete mix dropped in for footers and allowed to harden from ground moisture. The 6 bys were 10' long in the deeper water and 8' in the shallower area.

The beach was about 15 feet wide and even after spreading, the rain and wave action helps to spread it even more. It would still be a usable beach today if I wanted to use it as such.

Just some thoughts, I have been in TX a few times and I notices you seem to have plenty of Tree Swallows. They are a nice birds to have around a pond to keep down the bugs and to watch fly. If you ever decide to attract them I found this type of Bluebird house is really liked by them.

If you want Wood ducks you might want to plan on putting a post ahead of time in your pond before it fills. The water is better then on land for the ducks where animals can sometimes get to the young. I'm putting in one now but I'm using a steel fence post driven in the water, over which a 2 inch PVC post will slip over it with the duck house attached.

I’m also considering putting in a floating peer/dock and using used 55 gal plastic food grade drums that I can find in my area for $10 each.