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I have been reading the archives about Golden Shiners and it has been mentioned several times that GSH populations diminish over a period of time but I didn’t understand exactly why. Is it LMB eating so many or are there other reasons? If it is mainly LMB reducing the GSH population then maybe I should start taking out some LMB now about 6” long that survived my winter kill. I put in 1 gal. of GSH this spring that I think is about 7 lb, in my 1 acre pond and would like to add twice that much next spring. I also introduced 600 FH and 100 BG this spring. But I really want a big population of GSH for FA control.


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Generally it's been my experience that LMB over time will eventually extirpate GSH from most ponds in 6-8 years after they are introduced and you will see substantial declines within 2-3 years. Getting them established in ponds with LMB is darn near impossible, especially those without extensive shallow areas(few smaller ponds have these) and aquatic vegetation, few pond owners what large amounts of it.

GSH will eat FA, however unless they were in extremely crowded conditions which is unlikely in the presence of LMB, I doubt they will do much to control FA. One of my favorite baits for CC in ponds with GSH are GSH. I've cut open a lot of GSH in the 4"-8" range to use as cut bait and rarely do I find FA in their stomachs. Now in forage ponds where there are piles of GSH, I will see them feeding on FA.

There are a few species of Cyprinid that FA makes up a reasonable % in their diet. The brassy minnow (Hybognathus hankinsoni)and the central stoneroller (Campostoma anomalum) are the two big ones that come to mind. Unfortunately, neither would be suitable for your pond.

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Thanks for your answer. It looks like with my bass predators that I probably can’t completely eliminate, I would be back to having FA in a few years. Very frustrating. The tadpoles did an excellent job of FA control but that only lasted till mid June when they became frogs and there is no guarantee I will have that high population next spring. So the dilemma is how to control FA the second half of the year and not use the three fish types that used to work for me but can’t be used in my clear pond concept. I will have more plants next year that should help but as much as I like plants that might be too much even for me. The pleasent thing about the pond after the fish kill is I have lots of minnows and some bluegills and bass to look at and feed from my deck.


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Tilapia during summer if you can use them would help.
















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Apparently there are so many "algae eaters" in North America, I can't understand why anyone has FA. crazy

Virtually any species of fish can have FA, or anything else for that matter, in it's digestive tract. Pepsin breaks down the proteins to extract nutrition and most FA require an acid PH around 1.4 for the pepsin to break the "strong" FA protein barrier. For most fish species, a stomach Ph that low would dissolve the host fish species itself. It is far more likely FA ingested is by accident rather than intent and fish are eating other organisms growing in or on the FA instead. FA control by GSH is much more likely to be obtained in very dense stockings by the disruption of the the FA growth cycle rather than by any actual consumption.

Maybe it is semantics to some as to what constitutes a fish being called an "algae eater" and if so, I apologize for seemingly being overly sensitive to some being misled in these rather "creative" theories being presented here.

I have yet to see a single result mentioned that was even remotely acheived through FA atually being consumed in any quantity that would have achieved said results.

It is great to think outside the box here on the forum. We just can't forget, the "box" needs to be clearly understood also, ESPECIALLY if you like going outside it!



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One reason GSH tend to disappear from LMB ponds is older GSH develop an ovarian parasite (protozoan) that limits reproduction esp in older GSH. Many, most, or all young GSH become forage items leaving behind mostly the largest old adult GSH that tend to be infertile or of low reproductive potential. Thus the downward spiral trend of the GSH population unless quite a few YOY GSH survive each year.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/20/11 12:54 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Rainman

I have yet to see a single result mentioned that was even remotely acheived through FA atually being consumed in any quantity that would have achieved said results.


Here is the second year of my pond without algae. No GC yet but LMB, BG, and the algae eaters are in and work as Zetts said they would, 6 Israeli Carp, 20 KOI & 100 CC & 12 albino CC. Notice the size of the small Australian Pines, use them as a reference, I had a nursery put in at this size. There is no FA in this picture.


This is my pond around 10 year old. Note the Australian Pine size, again as a reference for age of the pond. There is no FA. The Israeli Carp, KOI & CC are quite big now as are the GC that were added around year 5.


This picture is after my FA eaters died after 15 years from the winter kill, and to my surprise the huge number of tadpoles were eating FA and keeping the pond clear of FA. The bottom picture shows no FA until the third week of June when they turned into frogs. Doing this time of no FA we had quite hot weather including three strait days of above 90 degree weather. Should have been great FA growing weather. The ponds around my area at this time were having FA problems. The upper picture of the bottom two is FA that developed after the three week. This is the first time I ever had more then a trace of FA in 15 years. The only difference is the pond is without my combination of fish. This is a single result that actually happened just as Zetts said, I tried it, and I think my pictures show the results. I probably have more pictures if I go back through my old photos before I had a digital camera.
[


The clear pond concept has it’s problems. FA is the obvious one, but without the 18 GC the cattails are out of control also. But the Wood Ducks love it and I have 6 staying all summer. So that's a plus. Just where I am going with all this I don't know yet.


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Thanks for that infor Bill. So it would seem if I worked to keep my bigger bass in very low numbers and give the young GSH a chance to stay in high numbers, the possibility of controlling FA would most likely increase.

Last edited by John Monroe; 08/20/11 06:17 AM.

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This is a bit off topic but... I could be wrong here, but those look like Austrian pines(Pinus nigra) to me. Austrian pines are commonly planted in many areas to include the Midwest, particularly used as wind breaks. They are native to much of Europe, hence their common name.

Australian pines(Casuarina equisetifolia) are a tropical species of tree native to most of southeast Asia, many Pacific islands and northern Australia hence its common name. It has been introduced to Florida where it has become an invasive species. My aunt and uncle in Florida fight a never ending battle to control them!

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Its not the bigger bass that cause GSH recruitment problems it is the small bass 3"-12" that are almost always more abundant compared to the bigger older bass. Smaller, abundant bass and smaller predators eat lots of 1"-4" GSH thus healily impacting the GSH recruitment. Johns pond appears to have adequate shoreline habitat and cover which should under a normal fishery should allow GSH recruitment, but probably not enough recruitment to keep FA under control. If you want good FA control and your theory holds, considder renovating the pond and restock primarily for the goal of high GSH numbers - possibly mainly a GSH pond.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/20/11 12:57 PM.

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Again, the reson for a "lack of FA" in the older pond pics was NOT from any meaningful ingestion of FA as it is not something those species can digest. The lack of FA was due to the very turbid (muddy) water conditions created by the bottom rooting fish. The RESULT was a reduction in FA. The REASON was a lack of light penetration allowing FA growth and not an "algae eater".



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It would be interesting to hear from those with primarily or only GSH in a forage pond to see if FA is ever a problem. IMO it would take an awful lot of GSH to control a healthy bloom of FA.


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Originally Posted By: Rainman
The lack of FA was due to the very turbid (muddy) water conditions created by the bottom rooting fish. The RESULT was a reduction in FA. The REASON was a lack of light penetration allowing FA growth and not an "algae eater".



Rainman my pond was turbid somewhat but I believe the visibility was probably 2 feet, but I didn't measure it doing the 15 years of being FA free. I, the kids & grandkids were feeding the fish from the deck and we could see the fish, but they were big fish and easy to see. There were minnows and bluegill also being fed and seen. I fed the fish every day except when they stopped feeding when the cold water arrived. If you want to believe the FA was only accidentally eaten that's fine but the bottom line is there was only trace FA for all those years. The pond was total free hands off maintenance. I never sprayed, I never pulled or cut anything and it always looked nice. My pond friends also didn’t believe. We had a beer fest on the deck so they could observe and ask questions. Only now is the pond out of control. Cattails, spatterdock. But I may like a lot of cattails.

Here is a short video showing my Corkscrew ell grass. It has spread and grown better then I expected. The water clarity is 3 foot because of the tannin. Earlier in the year it had been clear to 6'4".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BTIKiXk2Yc

Last edited by John Monroe; 08/21/11 06:08 AM.

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I can post pictures of a couple of ponds that only have BG, RES, YP, GSF in them and they are FA free also. NO Koi, carp, etc. Visibility is around 36".

Am I saying that those fish are algae eaters because I don't see any FA in the pond? Not in this lifetime. The reason is because they nutrient load is very light, and the photoplankton is utilizing enough of the nutients that are produced by the fish to keep FA from getting a foothold. There are virtually no plants in these ponds either.

There are a number of contributing factors to not having FA in a pond, not just critters eating it.


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John - I watched your videos - do you have theories/thoughts as to why the 1 shallow pond in the “ponds” video has been FA free for 10 years? Also, at what depth(s) did you plant your eel grass (Vallisneria??)? Not to be controversial but we had a couple of koi on a 2nd story balcony “mini-pond” that definitely ate FA as well as duckweed (a “portion” lasted about a day and a half) until rocky raccoon scaled the side of the house… I don't know if their artificial environment played a role.

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I have GSH, FHM, YP and WE in my 3 year old pond. The GSH were given a year head start on the rest and now I cannot throw a #8 or #10 hook in the water without it immediately being grabbed by one. Because of this, I have no idea if any of the 1000 6-8" YP that I put in last year are still alive, I have never been able to keep a baited hook in long enough.

I know I have a very healthy supply of GSH, however they were not able to control an FA bloom I had early this summer. I had to resort to a chemical control.

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I planted the corkscrew ell grass in 2 to 3 feet of water. Beside planting the 4 plants below my deck I planted 1 plant every 4 steps, or about 8 feet. I looked up my records and I planted about May 7th. It seemed like it took a month before I begin to see result. But now the corkscrews have exploded. My pond had dropped about 2 feet from evaporation so yesterday I went around my pond trans planting plants that were about to go dry. I got around 50 corkscrew plants and never made a dent in the population. I was wading just a few minutes ago trying to count the population from just one plant and I roughly counted 30 from just one plant. The plants don't seem to have any rime or reason in the way they spread. Some will grow in a big cluster and other will spread in a long row of 4 or 5 feet. This was way more then I expected from a plant. I figure we have 4 to 6 weeks of growing season left so the corkscrew should have a heck of a start for next year, if they survive the winter. The plant is listed as an Asian plant so I guess you could call it an invasive non native plant but it is pretty, about 1 to 1/2 feet in length and stays below the water surface.
I had bad FA shading for about a month and I was afraid that would kill the corkscrews but they were nice and green when the FA left the surface. This is where I got mine and a picture of the condition when they arrived.

I used to think the FA free mystery pond was caused my the many Black Ramshorn snails 10 years ago but now there are hardly any. The pond now is turbid partly because they have dug and expanded the pond in the far end, but 10 years ago I waded in the pond and was able to see and pick up hundreds of snail. I put them in my pond and they died out for some reason. I was going to get permission to put a fish trap in the pond and see what I come up with but I haven't done that. Yet, anyway. 10 year ago the pond was isolated and hard to get to, now they have a gun shooting station by it and you can drive right up to it.

http://www.aquariumplants.com/product_p/va069.htm



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Thank you for the info - you have been extremely helpful. I'm trying to gather as much "real world" experience with its use (eel grass)- will you update on winter survivability next year? I have looked at the same vendor that you used due to their pricing and am relieved that their plants look so good. I have purchased plants from other more expensive vendors in the past and many of those plants did not look nearly as good.

The mystery pond is interesting. Will you keep us updated?

Again, thanks for posting the videos. They have given me a lot to chew on... Is it a sin to covet your neighbor's canoe?? Seriously, though, beautiful wood work.

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Full Circle I will post about the plants at the end of this season and what happens next year to them.

Thanks for the boats comment. They are just an extention of loving water.

Here is a little extra on the Corkscrew plants. I think maybe I need to get a life, but I'm retired so what the heck.
The picture is of one plant that has spread about 4 feet wide. I took 55 flags and put everywhere I saw a new plant, and I run out of flags. There were still two areas of new plants that I have circled that I could also have flaged had I more flags.


Last edited by John Monroe; 08/25/11 12:34 PM.

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not to stir up the FA controversy but... perhaps the differing opinions in regard to the consumption in FA are due to the differences in fish anatomy. As per the FAO (Food and Agriculture Organization), there are 4 different gut configurations: a straight stomach with an enlarged lumen (for example, the Esox family), a U-shaped stomach with an enlarged lumen, a Y-shaped stomach with a cecum formed by the “stem”of the Y, and those without a stomach in which the midgut attaches directly to the esophagus (cyprinids – includes both carp and golden shiners). Note that in some families, only one specific genus will lack a stomach. Stomachless fish (which do not produce pepsin) tend to be herbivores or omnivores, while the first 3 classifications (those with true stomachs) are typically carnivores which rely on peptic digestion.

Carp and other Cyprinids (GSH, Blennies, etc.) do not have a stomach and do not produce pepsin (they rely on trypsin). They digest their food by grinding the plant material (interdigital teeth) before swallowing, exposing more surface area to the digestive enzymes. Large quantities of plant material are required as it is believed that only 5-15% of the material is digestible – the rest (plant fiber) passing through as fecal material. Unlike fish with stomachs, pepsin is not produced, but rather trypsin is the main protease excreted. Lipolytic activity has been observed in carp and there are ongoing studies into carbohydrases and collagenase. Interestingly, amylase (the enzyme which breaks down starch) has been found in both goldfish and bluegill but not LMB. The presence of other enzymes have been postulated but not yet isolated. To quote FAO: “Much remains to be learned about intestinal digestion in fish”. Some interesting reading which verifies the above info:

http://www.fao.org/docrep/X5738E/x5738e02.htm#6.3%20common%20carp%20%28cyprinus%20carpio%29

John’s post and others’ observations and anecdotal evidence are what I find great about this forum. Rather than dismissing their (and my own) observations out of hand, it led me to do further research…. confirming that cyprinids including GSH do have the capability to digest FA.

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John - You have caused me to put Val at the top of my list. We purchased 200 acres in Central Texas a couple of years ago and are finally getting around to laying out the pond. I appreciate your patience in responding to all of my questions- I am one of those that over analyzes/engineers, and I want to be sure that we have enough area (with appropriate depth) for plants (among 1000 other things) before we dig. If you had to do it again, would you still plant at 8 foot centers? Have you ever tried any of the Sagittaria family? I am looking forward to see how they continue to grow and how well they’ll over-winter.

There is nothing “just” about your boats – it’s apparent that a lot of time and work went into them – nice detail work.

It sounds like you already have a life. I am busier now that I am retired than I was when I had a “real” job. I can’t say that I relate to those that find retirement boring…


Last edited by FullCircleTx; 08/25/11 01:08 PM.
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FullCircleTex, I'm not dismissing what John nis saying, and I find the information that you posted very interesting. I'm just trying to point out that in normal ponds, if someone new reads the posts about the different species of carp and GSH eating FA, they might think that they are a magic bullet for their FA problem, then be upset with the information on the forum if it doesn't work to their expectations.


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Esshup - I fully understand your point – I would not want anyone misled, either. What I was responding to was a different post that implied that all fish excrete pepsin in the digestive process and a later statement that these species cannot digest FA. I find John’s observations regarding his home pond and the mystery pond featured in his video interesting and I am trying to grasp all of the factors that may be contributing to the FA-free state. As I am one of those who “thinks outside the box”, I tend not to take many statements as fact until researching them ad nauseum and thought I would throw this bit of info out regarding Cyprinids and trypsin (the FAO seems like a solid resource to me). If anyone has read studies that contradict the FAO, I would appreciate the link as I am just here to learn…..By the way, all of the research I found supports your post entirely. ‘Hope I have not stirred the pot so to speak.

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Originally Posted By: esshup
FullCircleTex, I'm just trying to point out that in normal ponds, if someone new reads the posts about the different species of carp and GSH eating FA, they might think that they are a magic bullet for their FA problem, then be upset with the information on the forum if it doesn't work to their expectations.

I think the same could be said for the Naysayers who make definite statements that certain species such as GSH absolutely won't make any impact on FA.
In my opinion there aren't too many absolutes when it comes to ponds.



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I think Bill Cody coined the term "It All Depends" when talking about ponds, and I think that is truer than many people believe.


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