Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Fertilization Trophymaker - Experiences?

In an effort to diversify my fertilization options (see also "Southern Excellence - Experiences?") I also tried a few sacks of Trophymaker. Up until this year, I've used nothing but liquid 10-34-0 or 11-37-0 because of cost and availability issues.

I was quite pleased at how easily the powdered fertilizer dissolved in a bucket of water. I'm not sure if it could be dispersed in the pond as a dry powder without dissoving in solution, so for my initial tests this year I dissolved appropriate amounts in a bucket of water before dumping into the propwash.

I conducted informal tests on two small ponds and Trophymaker established a great bloom in both. The combination of low nitrogen and high phosphorous (even better than Southern Excellence) was a desireable feature. Cost was similar to SE, but disposal of the plastic bag was much easier than the bulky bucket.

Trophymaker (and SE)is quite a bit more expensive than liquid fertilizer, but no equipment is needed to apply it.

A question to those who regularly use Trophymaker. Is it necessary to dissolve it in water before applying it to the pond? The few handfuls I tossed in the water appeared to sink rapidly in the water column despite being much smaller than traditional granular fertilizers.

One side benefit to Trophymaker I observed . . . don't laugh. I was changing the setting on a clients feeder timer and fire ants got all over my hand and went to work. About 20 minutes later I was mixing some Trophymaker with my hand because I had forgotten to get my paddle out of the truck. Those fire ant stings didn't whelp up or do any of the nasty things they normally do. A few weeks later I had a chance to test it again, this time on my foot. I foolishly was weeding the garden in sandals and really got into them. Remembering my previous success with Trophymaker, I immediately poured some in a bucket and stuck my foot in the solution. Result . . . Visible sting marks but no swelling or nasties, with greatly reduced itching and little pain. The fertilizer salts must leach out the poison or something.

Anyway, fire ants aside, I'm interested in other's experiences with Trophymaker.

interesting observation!! as a physician, i hear a lot of "home remedies". i called one of my pharmacology/chemical experts to see if he could think of any reason why your observation "might be"!! i had no clue, neither did my other resources. other than some astringent effect, can't come up with anything. i cross referenced the components with my computer medical info, and no luck there either. some of the components act kind of like bleach, but other than that, couldn't come up with much. but interesting observation!!! mark

I'm not familiar with Trophymaker. Is it a water soluble powder? It sounds like it is. If so there are a few on the market and they all may have diff soulubilities. However their big advantage over granular and liquid is that they can simply be "cast" into the pond unlike the others. I sell a product called Thrive made by Tiger-Sunbelt and it has been selling great and is much cheaper than Southern Excellence per application. Hope this helps, but if it is a water souluble you should not have to go through the trouble of dissolving in a bucket first.

Oh yea, it also burns any small cuts when applying without gloves, I'll try it next time I get fire ant bite which happens about once a week,Thanks.

I purchased a pallet of Southern Excellence and put it around in some of the ponds I keep fertilized. It is simple to use and is working great. the best thing about that product is you can remove the fertilizer if your bloom gets too heavy. sometimes (for whatever reason) the bloom will get very heavy even though proper fertilizer rates were used. In the past I just had to ride them out and adjust rates, usually during the summer. this has happened to me a couple times this year and Southern Excellence makes this problem easy. you simply take the bucket out and set it on the bank, after a week or so as the bloom clear you can put it back in. cant think of another fertilizer that you can take back out. I will be using Southern Excellecne from now on.

We had been using Scott's dissolvable pond fertilizer the last couple of years with great success but decided to try SE this year. We put them in in April and after getting a good bloom we are back to clear water again already. Scott's would clear up as well but wouldn't usually get clear until October or so. Don't know if it is coincidence or not but I think Scott's performed for us better. I have ordered some more SE so I will see what happens this time.

Mark,

I thought the fire ant observation was interesting. Hey, maybe you could patent and market the product. I want a percentage! :p

Greg,

Yes it is a soluble powder. The granules are quite small, less than 1 mm across down to much smaller. Sounds like broadcasting might be the way to go.

Shan,

I agree with your positive comments regarding Southern Excellence. One question, do you also have problems with incomplete dissolving of the product? Maybe the remaining "mush" is just fillers and binders, I don't know.

I use Trphy Maker in 5 gallon buckets and it works fine. I drill holes in the top and about 8 inches down the sides from the top. Then put in the fertilizer, turn it upside down, weigh down the handle, and set it adrift. Takes about three weeks with wave motion to dissolve the fertilizer. I repeat the process about every two months. Works fine. Take a note, this does NOT work with Cutrine Plus granules for weed control. They never dissolve... .

Be sure and put a couple of srews in the side of the lid to make sure it does not come off. And plastic buckets are the easiest to work with.

I mentioned this before , but no one really joined in. What do you spend on fertilizing the pond on a per acre per application basis?
I'm curiuos to see a price comparision. I think the Southern Excellence is a great idea, but thought it was expensive compared to others, maybe I'm wrong.
I'll start...
Thirve sold $30-$35 per 25 lb. box. Rate of application 4 lbs/ac. Therefore price is $4.80-$5.60 per acre per application. It works like all others in that easier when hot and low flow. It may require higher appliction rate in spring. Thanks for your time, Greg.

Buzz,

I'm on my third application of SE on the lakes where I'm using it exclusively. All of them received an initial 2 gal/acre of liquid to start. To be fair, I've never had a fertilizer bloom last longer than 10 weeks after it started. All of my clients' lakes have required additional fertilizer apps by now, I'm sitting at 4 to 6 apps on all of them as I type this, with three of those occuring in March and April.

If Scotts gave you a bloom <24" through Oct., that's great results and you probably won't do better.

These are my costs, in bulk of course:

Southern Excelence: 20 lbs, phosphorus = 46, so 920 units of P at a cost of $18, so $1.96 per 100 units of P

Trophy Maker: 25 lbs, P = 62, so 1550 units of P at a cost of $20, so $1.29 per 100 units of P

Liquid: 12 lbs, P = 37, so 444 units of P at a cost of $1.50, so $0.34 per 100 units of P

I thought that cost per unit of phosphorus would be the most useful, as that is the limiting factor we are trying to increase.

All of these costs would be about double for retail sales of these products.

These costs don't include time or equipment. Liquid requires the most time, first to obtain the product, break it down into 5 gallon containers, then apply it, which can take a while. It also requires the most equipment.

It seems to me that SE has the advantage of time during application over water soluble powders, but you still have to pick up and dispose of the bucket. It's probably a wash either way, just which one is best for your particular application.

For me, the water soluble powder is looking fairly competive with liquid when the elements of time and equipment are considered.

Greg,

as far as I can tell you are wrong, SE is costing me around $4.40 per acre (using your calculation)that includes shipping from Alabama.

Fishman, I understand where you are coming from. You are correct in most situations phosphorus is what is important. I based my price on retail. Thanks for your time on figuring that out.

I wanted to get a price based on what the product recommends to clients. In other words Thrive says 4 lbs/acre.($5.20/app.) Liquid I would say is 1.5 gals/acre. ($6/app.)WHat about SE, Fishman and Shan? What is it's application rate?

Based on Retail and the P you figured this is the breakdown...per 100 units of P

Thrive $2.30
Trophymaker$2.58
Liquid $0.68 (how was this figured?)
SE $3.92(based on double wholesale price)

The problem with figuring on P is mode of appliction. LIquid unless diluted sinks to bottom and most of it may never benefit the pond. Water soluble works much easier because it dissolves in upper portion of water column. Thus the application rate for it is lower. I have never used SE, is it supposed to be a time release, if so then it would rank higher on a P basis even though it is more expensive.

Obviously what you pay for the product makes a big diff. Fishman, how did you figure the liquid? I got a price of $11.70/gal. retail
Anyway, thanks for your help. I believe SE is easiest to use, etc., but I believe it to be more expensive. Shan how did you get the $4.40. Not questioning you, I just did not know price or app. rate for it??? Thanks!

Greg,

In answer to the application rate, I think you have to look at it for the whole season. It is also lake-specific.

For my clients, I apply the first fertilizer in early to mid-March. To maintain a bloom into September requires between 5 and 8 gallons of fertilizer per acre. This is between 2220 and 3552 units of phosphate for a season. This rate is sufficient to attain a sub 24" secchi from when the bloom starts into September, barring complications from aquatic vegetation or some such.

Therefore, my cost per acre for raw materials (which incidentally is an extremely small portion of my overall cost) is between $7.50 and $12.

I don't have a handle on costs for the powder or SE for the season yet, but they are going to be significantly higher. For example, I have a one acre pond that required 5 gallons of liquid (2220 P units)last year and achieved a great bloom at a cost of $7.50 for materials. This year I'm on my 4th bucket of SE, using it exclusively, and the bloom is running between 24" and 30". That is 3680 units of P at a cost to me of $72. That difference is what makes me think that not all of the fertilizer is dissolving despite staying in the pond for 8 weeks or more. At any rate, the liquid appears to be more efficiently utilized, at least in this limited example.

I am using SE exclusively on three other lakes, but they are new business so I don't have anything to compare them to. They are also requiring more fertilizer than I expected, though.

It should be pointed out again that because I am using SE in that particular pond, launching a boat is not necessary, so wear and tear on equipment is minimized. Also it requires much less time, and in this business time is money. That is why I'm looking at alternatives to liquid.

The point you brought up about the requirement that liquid be diluted is absolutely true in most cases. However, I've had good success on remote small ponds spraying fine droplets over the surface of the water from a hand-held sprayer. If I can get to it with equipment, I've also used a pump to dilute the liquid in a tank on shore, then applied it to the pond from shore. At any rate, it is always more work and requires equipment.

As for the retail prices of each, they are pretty accurate for SE and powder, at least in my area. The liquid is a little more than 2X cost, because of the need for the consumer to buy the container it's in, etc. So it comes out to about $5/gallon. This is based on what I charge my customers, and I've seen it a lot higher, up to $10/gallon in this area. At $5/gallon, you don't make any money on it really, when you consider the cost of transporting it.

It bears repeating that I don't really care if the raw materials cost 5x as much as liquid, which is probably an appropriate standard. The cost of materials is a small portion of the overall cost when you're talking about fertilization. I'm looking for an effective product that is easy to use and provides a good value to my clients. It's the combination of materials, overhead, and time that they pay for. If a small increase in material cost results in large decreases in one or both of the other areas, I can offer my services for less cost.

Well, I just got off the phone with Jerry Robinson of Southern Excellence and he answered some of the questions I brought up in this discussion.

The gray "mush" that remains in the bucket is naturally occuring clay. If the bucket has been in the water for a month or more, all of the goodies have already leached out.

He said that by next year, the floatation inside the bucket would be encapsulated, allowing one to remove the lid and dump out the residual clay so that transportation wouldn't be so messy.

Another small problem he's close to resolving is camoflauging the bucket for folks who don't want to see them. Sounds like an appropriately sized plastic bag and rubber band is in the works and should be available shortly for a small additional cost.

SE also now has a website: Southern Excellence for those who want to take a closer look.

As these products continue to improve, everybody benefits.

Fishamn, thanks for all the info. I'm with you on ease of use. I agree, that is why I use and sell water soluble I can simply cast in to the pond. The SE website says 1-5 acres per bucket, which is it??? If you and/or others could comment on how many acres they put out /acre.

Let's say it treats 2.5 acres per bucket and cost $30 it would be $12/acre. Environmnetal conditions would dictate how many times you have to add. This compares to water soluble Thrive fertilizer at $30 for 25lb box. It will treat 6 acres so only $5/acre/appl.

I guess this is the point I have been trying (so hard)to figure out. I will use the water soluble b/c easier and less money. I'm not saying anything bad about the SE and realize it is even easier and have several other advantages I just don't see how it is possibly less money than water soluble powder. whew

smaller ponds dont have as much wind and wave action so the fertilizer does not leach out of the bucket. thats how you can fertilize smaller ponds with the 5 acre rate. I have it in 2 ponds at 2.5 acres and have not applied fertilizer in 45 days. there is no real concern of over fertilizing because you can take the fertilizer out. I know that sounds kind of weird, but I have yet to fertilize a pond that takes one gallon of liquid per month for every month of the growing season which is what most products list on their label. some months it takes more and sometimes I apply none. based on what I have done fertilization is no where close to an exact science, none of the ponds I fertilize stay the same from year to year. some years they bloom with one application and others it takes 3 apps. that being said, trying to sit here and figure out which is the most cost effective is almost impossible.

also, the SE fertlizer is more time release, I have noticed a more consistant bloom. most of the time the bloom I get with liquid is very dense after the application, then lightens up over the course of a month.

Shan, thanks for the info. I agree it is difficult to try and figure a cost comparisison that is why I tried it here a couple of ways. The one fairly constant variable I have found is that ponds and lakes that have been fertilized for years seem to bloom much easier than pond being fertilized for the first time.

what can you get SE at wholesale for?

You can get it for $16, but you have to buy an entire pallet. For my area, that means 48 pails and the shipping comes to an extra $100 or so. They also take up a heck of a lot of storage space.

If you have a need for that amount, contact Southern Excellence directly and see if they can fix you up.

I've been watching this thread with great interest since we produce TROPHY MAKER 12-61-0 water-soluble pond fertilizer. The observations have been enlightening (particularly the fire-ant remedy). However, I'm puzzled by the price per "unit" of P concept. What is the referenced "unit"?

In most fertilizer applications, costs are usually determined per lb. of N (nitrogen), P (phosphorus) or K (potash). With pre-blended fertilizers, it can be difficult to calculate the exact cost of each component (N,P or K) since each element represents a disproportionate amount of the blend's cost. Also, the source of each element impacts its cost-to-produce as well as its degree of plant-availability.

In the case of pond fertilizers, wouldn't it make reasonable sense to simply calculate the blended product's cost "Per lb. of P" (since it is the primary nutrient for phytoplankton development)?

If that is the case, then cost per lb of P might be a sensible means for comparing the relative costs of different blends (though the element's source and its availability for plant-uptake may differ significantly).

To compare costs per lb. of P, take the cost per lb. of blended product and divide it by the % of P that is contained within that lb of blended product.

ie. TROPHY MAKER 12-61-0 contains 61% phosphorus. "IF" TM sells retail for $1.20/lb., the cost per lb of P would equal $1.20 divided by .61 (or $1.97/lb. of P). Although this method ignores the value and/or benefit that the 12% of N contributes to the product's cost, it still give a cost-basis for the nutrient of primary concern (P). BTW: Trophy Maker's phosphorus is derived from monoammonium phosphate, which is very readily available for plant uptake and use. Other sources of phosphorus may require days before the P becomes available for a plant's use.

Other examples:
THRIVE 12-51-4 / If cost is $1.06 per lb. of blend, then the cost for P could be stated as $2.07 per lb. (Back-check: $2.07 x 51% = $1.06)

SOUTHERN EXCELLENCE 18-46-0 / If cost is $1.00 per lb. of blend, then the cost for P could be calculated as $2.17/lb. ($1 divided by .46)

What about liquids?: 11-37-0 contains 37% P by weight (dense liquid fertilizers weigh about 11 lbs/gal.). So, 1 gal of 11-37-0 contains about 4.07 lbs. of P. At a blended cost of $3.60/gal., the cost per lb. of P may be calculated at $3.60 divided by 4.07, equal to 88 cents per lb. of P (plus a LOT of labor and equipment to do the job right).

I'm open to correction if I'm miscalculating these fertilizer costs. But it seems to be a logical means of comparing the cost of different blends when one particular element is of primary concern. Any comments????

yes you seem right to me too..I use SE but am interested in Trophymaker.What is the bottom line wholesale cost and where can i get more info about it?

RufusCatfish

Actually, the fertilization rate is 15lbs/acre for 18-46-0. A SE bucket is 20lbs. Some people are claiming a bucket will fertilize up to 5 acres and that is why you see so many posts that say it takes more than prescribed. Cost and time is my main concern.

RufusCatfish

"Wholesale pricing" entirely depends upon the wholesale quantity being purchased; usually stated as pallets (80x25# bags) or truck-loads (22 pallets per). This isn't a forum for quoting prices, but email me if you'd like more info on the product. kduffie@estesinc.com

As with most things, "cost" should be a factor - but "performance" should guide the decision. (I had an uncle who price-shopped for a new pace-maker, may he rest in peace.)

Personally, I feel that bagged water-solubles are ideal for lakes of 5 to 25 acres, while liquid fertilizers should be considered for larger lakes (> 25 acres) since the handling and application-hassle is better justified. But, for smaller ponds (<5 acres), the Southern Excellence "concept" has a lot of merit.

Kelly, where is the closet dealer to Fairfield, Tx.