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Pond Mission Impossible?
#262721 06/23/11 04:16 AM
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Howdy, all. Perry - from New Zealand - checking in.

After poring over more than few threads, I have the
sinking feeling that my aspirations border on lunacy.
My proposed pond area is modest, by USA standards.
It'd be measured in square yards, rather than acres.
My guess is about 40 x 20 yards, in an ovoid shape.
Probably not going to be much more than 2 feet deep.

The water supply will be replenished constantly from
the output of a biocycle aerobic/anaerobic waste-water
treatment system. Essentially the supernatant from black
and grey water from five households on the place.

However, the system does not work as it should, with
more suspended solids in the supernatant than there
should be. The good part about that is those fine, sus-
pended solids do seem to act as a sealer, of sorts.
There is no serious or nasty septic tank-like odour.

So, if I am lucky enough to get the project close to
reality, the inflow will tend to facilitate sealing. The
seems a fair presumption, based on leaving the output
hose on the shingle, and watching the water spread
further, over the months. Besides . . .

I plan to have a flowform on the island, to achieve
aeration /good water quality. What's a flowform,
did you say?



The real obstacle here is the 'soil' strata. Stony gravel
with some silt overlay
is how it's described. And I've
dug enough post holes to be sure of that. As I see it,
bringing in a high clay content soil and hand-plastering
it is among my few (natural) options.

I also suspect that the bentonite clay in New Zealand
is not of the same quality or make-up of what you folks
have access to. Not even sure if New Zealand-purchased
kitty litter would be better!

Among the DIY crowd, has anyone tried - say - mushing
soaked old newspapers pulped together with bentonite?
(A variation on the gley option?) Other variants? Yes,
I did read of the alfalfa experiment! crazy

Here's a pic of the stage I'm at, just now.




Last edited by PerryNZ; 06/24/11 05:52 AM.
Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #262722 06/23/11 06:37 AM
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Pretty neat setup Perry. Welcome to PB.

I don't know the answer to your question but would be suspicious of any organic material like paper mixed with clay. It is my observation that only good clay seals and nothing else seems to work. And, certain clays don't work. However, you could try it by lining a bucket with holes with different mixes of it.

An Ohio company sells a product called Aquablok. I don't know what it is but they might be a good source of potential information.

www.aquablokinfo.com


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #262723 06/23/11 06:40 AM
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PerryNZ welcome to pond boss, it's never lunacy to want a pond no matter how impossible it seems grin.
With your proposed pond area of about 1/7 th of an acre have you looked into the possibility of using a liner.

Stand by for more Ideas from the experts.



Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
adirondack pond #262725 06/23/11 07:03 AM
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I'm a little averse to the liner idea. I also wonder how
much the island may complicate any sort of membrane?
But if ends up being the only viable option, I may just
have to change my mind.

Thanks for the warm words of welcome, too.
sleep time for me!

Last edited by PerryNZ; 06/23/11 07:03 AM.
Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #262729 06/23/11 07:19 AM
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Perry, welcome to the forum. I also think that after it's all said and done, a liner will be the only option. I'm not saying the other options won't work, but I'm sure that the liner will work. I don't have any experience with liners, but I'm wondering if it could be put in place, then covered with substrate so you don't see the liner?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
esshup #262773 06/23/11 04:42 PM
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One big dilemma I see with a liner is the stony
nature of the ground. I'd probably have to run
a vibrating plate compactor over the bed area,
to reduce the risk of punctures.

I have the flowform installer making a site visit,
today. I'll quizz him about options, just in case
his experience covers that sort of thing, too.

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #262819 06/24/11 06:06 AM
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I spent a couple of hours on the digger, again, today, after
the flowform installer had been. I shot some levels which
showed that the right hand end needing raising a few inches,
to get closer to level.

I reflected a bit more on liners and related matters. I seems
a little ironic that this pond will have a steady influx of water,
independent of the weather. Something a few pond owners
on this site might envy. Which led to the question: how much?

Whatís an average (statistical, mythical) figure for water use
for - say - an adult? Shower, clothes washing, toilet, kitchen
use, and so on? We stabbed a guess at 25-30 US gallons per
day. Howís that sound? As there are six adults living on-site,
thatís 150 -180 gallons per day, most every day, going into
the pond.

Why is this a consideration? We were talking about leakage
as it relates to liners. Add a little overspray from a sprinkler
system and we have what some pond owners might wish for:
the potential need to lose water, in a small, measured way.
I.e. some leakage might be essential!

What that does is reduce the need for a super-duper seal in
any liner. Plus the amount of fine suspended solids coming
in, in the supernatant, may mean small leaks will self-seal.
That leads me to a budget option thought. (Donít cringe)

If I place fairly heavy black polythene over a plate compactor
smoothed surface, water-proof tape it at the joins and then let
the pond fill with rain and biocycle outflow, might I get away
with that?

Too much thinking time, sitting on that digger!

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #262821 06/24/11 06:35 AM
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http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=757

I don't think leakage would be a consideration if you used a liner, but I would check into evaporation rates for your area. Being on an island, surrounded by water, it might not be high, but then again, it might suprise you.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
esshup #262823 06/24/11 06:41 AM
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Perry, I have heard the figure of 270 gallons per day, per home, in the US.

Mine is probably more. I time my Wifes showers by the calendar, not the clock.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
Dave Davidson1 #263746 07/04/11 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Mine is probably more. I time my wife's showers by the calendar,
not the clock.

Very droll!

My wife says you have no business timing your wife's showers!
Of course, she only says that because I don't have to time hers -
we shower together. (To save water, you understand wink )

Of course the problem with the "per home" figure is not knowing
the number of residents and whether or not it includes watering
the lawns and garden.

For all that, having a continual input of 5-600 litres per day
(130 - 160 US gallons approx) must help with both evaporation
and leakage losses.

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
esshup #263747 07/04/11 05:44 AM
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For some reason, that page wont finish loading.
It tries, it starts, it just doesn't get finished.

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #264048 07/07/11 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted By: PerryNZ

For some reason, that page wont finish loading.
It tries, it starts, it just doesn't get finished.


I just tried it and it opened. Maybe connection speed? It says Australia is around 475 to 500 liters per day. That's per person per day. Data was from 2008 United Nations Development Program.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
esshup #264088 07/07/11 08:23 PM
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What we have in New Zealand, euphemistically referred
to as broadband, is absolute crap, speed-wise, so that
could indeed be implicated.

The Australian figures seem high, when I compare them
to my guesstimate of local output. I suppose it might
be said that the more the better, for my application?

I have the bridge piles and bearers in, but the decking
will be a little later. A bridge over no water! Still,
it did seem essential to get that in before laying out
any planned liner.

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #267390 08/09/11 12:57 AM
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Soon, the guy doing the pop-up irrigation scheme
will be visiting to mark out the lines, so we can
plant the specimen trees we have here. I've got
the bridge in place - now I just need a water-
filled pond to give it a reason for being.


The flowform installer is back from Europe, this
week, so we'll see what might happen once he's
again on-the-job. I have to say that dealing with
the NZ flow form people is akin to pulling teeth.

Reminds me of the dance tutor's waltz line, only
without the "quick-quick."

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #267392 08/09/11 04:23 AM
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Perry if you just look at the first pond, it is about your pond size and has a liner. When he first installed the liner he punchered it but didn't know it until it leaked. He drained the pond and patched it, and it has held up for several years now. So a larger pond liner is doable.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP0i13ZXCCE&feature=youtube_gdata


Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
John Monroe #267556 08/10/11 03:53 PM
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Perry before you get a liner down get some old carpet and use for padding. Most of it will not break down and it last forever providing your liner protection from the rock and debris. I do not know bout there but here you can get it for free from carpet store dumpsters. Just check it for nails or staples. We usually put two layers down then put the liner on top and cover liner with felt pad, then place gravel on the pad.

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
ozarkstriperscom #268103 08/17/11 04:52 AM
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Thanks for that tip - I'll keep it in mind. The
pop-up irrigation guy's been here for a couple
of days and has the job mostly finished. He does
need to come back for the 'finishing touches,' as
soon as it stops raining! What this progress means
is that after I finish all the tidying up of the
mess, the pond conundrum is next to be solved.

Trying to think a little outside the proverbial
box, now. I was wondering if a powder might be
applied to the shingle, then water sprayed gently
on it. I was thinking of a mix of bentonite*, plus
cement powder. Say, 4 or 5 to 1. Might that do
an odd mix of penetrate the shingle a little,
then set? I'm thinking of doing a test area,
as, well, a test.

Anyone got any similar odd-ball ideas? Or comments
on mine, of course.

The fall-back is a layer of carpet or under-felt,
overlaid with 50 micron, black polythene film.

* The New Zealand stuff is not as good as the USA product.

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #404711 03/20/15 11:11 PM
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The pond still remains empty, but I have not been idle. Far from it. Compare with the pic back in this post.



I can't see how/where to add a video clip to a post, so click here to see a short one like the pic above. Best viewed in a small tab/window, to reduce pixelation.

Last edited by PerryNZ; 03/20/15 11:14 PM.
Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #404715 03/21/15 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: PerryNZ
Howdy, all. Perry - from New Zealand - checking in.

After poring over more than few threads, I have the
sinking feeling that my aspirations border on lunacy.
My proposed pond area is modest, by USA standards.
It'd be measured in square yards, rather than acres.
My guess is about 40 x 20 yards, in an ovoid shape.
Probably not going to be much more than 2 feet deep.

The water supply will be replenished constantly from
the output of a biocycle aerobic/anaerobic waste-water
treatment system. Essentially the supernatant from black
and grey water from five households on the place.

However, the system does not work as it should, with
more suspended solids in the supernatant than there
should be. The good part about that is those fine, sus-
pended solids do seem to act as a sealer, of sorts.
There is no serious or nasty septic tank-like odour.

So, if I am lucky enough to get the project close to
reality, the inflow will tend to facilitate sealing. The
seems a fair presumption, based on leaving the output
hose on the shingle, and watching the water spread
further, over the months. Besides . . .

I plan to have a flowform on the island, to achieve
aeration /good water quality. What's a flowform,
did you say?



The real obstacle here is the 'soil' strata. Stony gravel
with some silt overlay
is how it's described. And I've
dug enough post holes to be sure of that. As I see it,
bringing in a high clay content soil and hand-plastering
it is among my few (natural) options.

I also suspect that the bentonite clay in New Zealand
is not of the same quality or make-up of what you folks
have access to. Not even sure if New Zealand-purchased
kitty litter would be better!

Among the DIY crowd, has anyone tried - say - mushing
soaked old newspapers pulped together with bentonite?
(A variation on the gley option?) Other variants? Yes,
I did read of the alfalfa experiment! crazy

Here's a pic of the stage I'm at, just now.




Hey, Perry. If water cleanup remains an issue, you might look into the floating islands made by floating island international. Really great at improving water quality, and I know they are active in NZ.

Best of luck!


8ac, full 3/16. CNBG, RES, FHM 10/15; TP 5/16; FLMB 6/16. 100 12" NLMB & 1k GSH 10/17,L, 150# TP & 70 HSB 5/18. 1k PK 11/18. 100# TP 4/19, 200# RBT 12/19, 10k TFS 3/20, 100#TP 5/20, 25 HSB & 250 F1 9/20,L,180# RBT 12/20, 206, 7k TFS,100#TP 5/21, 225



Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #404718 03/21/15 05:08 AM
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That's neat; really neat.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #404726 03/21/15 07:40 AM
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I like it also. let us know how it is going.

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #459337 11/21/16 02:44 AM
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Some progress has been made, albeit pedestrian in the extreme.

I have some white polymer powder for pond sealing purposes. The tale of how I got that to New Zealand could be an entertaining side-story.

I'm paying a couple of European back-packers to screen the rocks and stones from the pond bed, leaving me with the fines to mix the polymer powder with.

They expect to be finished in a couple of days. It's not overly hard work, but tedious and tiring.

The 'base course' looks like this:


After I've spread the fines where the screening has been done, in preparation for adding and mixing the sealant, the view is like this.


Perhaps I'll be close to having a pond by Xmas?

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #459346 11/21/16 09:07 AM
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While in Austraila we paid someone to get to sift dirt like that.

But they told us there were precious stones in the dirt. grin

Maybe you just need some marketing to get free labor. laugh

Welcome to PBF!

Last edited by snrub; 11/21/16 09:19 AM.

John

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Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
snrub #461942 01/13/17 12:09 AM
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When I'm past my present state of exhaustion, I might script some more details. For now, here's the result of around 9 tonnes of bentonite added, by wheel-barrow and manual labour.



The water is pouring in and the level is slowly rising. We are having hot, strong, dessicating winds, day and night, presently, so evaporation rates are high. That's borne out by the level drop in the swimming pool.

But it does look like - for me - it's Pond Mission Exhaustible, rather than impossible. crazy So I'm happy with that. Nine years in the making! Phew!

Re: Pond Mission Impossible?
PerryNZ #461948 01/13/17 08:06 AM
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Wow.....very nice!

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