Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking Adding YP and GSH

Hi all and Cecil

Been a lurker here for years and this place is invaluable. Finally bellied up and got my subscription this morning. I have moved so the old pond I built is gone, but the new place has a .6 acre pond 11.5 deep, plenty of shallows great vegetation and surrounded by 50-70 acres of grass.

Water clarity is unreal - 24-30 inches crystal clear. The water is the clearest I have ever seen almost as good as the trout streams in southern Missouri, which is where I am. The previous owners think it may have a small spring near the input area. It never goes down in drought years.

The pond is stocked with channel cat, BG and LMB. The BG are chunks and lots of them, 8-10". I took out 4 channels 24" and 12-15 LMB that were all 12-14" There are only a few bigger LMB that I have caught and released. I put them back.

I see all sizes of LMB and BG.

Pond is 10-15 years old.

Today I am adding 50 Yellow perch 6-8" and 6 lbs of Golden Shiners 4-6".



Thoughts, concerns or comments are wanted.

I would love to manage this pond for big Yellow perch and BG.

The YP are ready to spawn. Hopefully they won't spawn in the bags.


Thanks to all ahead of time.

There is no better table fare than Yellow Perch.


I will post pics of the release later today.

Someone must of p**d Cecil off he's gone.. Clear water sometimes means not nutrients not always good for fish but nice too look at..

I kinda wanted too have a bluegill/yellow perch pond.. But was kinda talked out of it.. Contact Bill Cody he gave me some sound advice on the exact situation your going through, also I made a thread on the issue awhile back you might be able to look up..

A good rule for your bluegill is keep everything under 8" EVERYTHING and all females unless it's a monster beautiful specimen also only keep bass over 14"..

And if there's no cover for the GSH THEY COULD BE GONE BY DARK:)

Howdy, thanks for the reply.

There is plenty of nutrients so no worries there, it's far from being nutrient poor. But I am considering creating a bloom. Would a pound or two of sweet horse feed do the trick?

I think the clear water is a combination of the great grassland that surrounds it and a possible spring feeding it. I am going to do some temperature checks to see if it is colder than other ponds.

I have also read the threads you speak of, (and many more). They were valuable in my decision to add the YP and GSH.

I also added some cover for the new GSH and remember they are 4-6" so they will be pretty safe as I have thinned the bass. They have lots of cover in both shallow and deep areas.

Thanks for the response.

Maybe Bill Cody will chime in. I can post pics of the pond too.

Honestly I know little about blooms.. And I'm not sure about why you would thin the bass population that's the last thing you wanna do with bluegill,, unless they were all big bass taken out.. A very small bass could eat a 4-6 GSH A 4-6 BG would be a different story.. If you have good clarity and good nutrients you have the making fr a really good pond, really clear water will make it even harder on your YP AND GSH predation wise that is.. Bill I think only checks the site once a day or so you could prolly send him an email or message or s better in depth response.. I would get some pallets for your GSH to spawn asap.. I'm looking forward to the pics.. What part of Mo you from?

Well, I guess I'm a moron. But I only took out 12-14 12-14" bass and 4 large channels to make room in the biomass for the YP.

I don't think letting a few bass getting a little bigger will affect the big BG I have too much.

Was just trying to make ample room for them.

Yellow perch are sight feeders and thrive best in clear waters.

I grew up in Maryland catching them.

IMO YP with BG & LMB are a dilema or a real challenge to keep all species in good balance. This is because YP & BG have very different body shapes. This makes it easier for LMB to eat a YP compared to a BG of same length and LMB do just that. Plus big LMB IMO prefer to eat a larger sized YP compared to a BG due to shape and the usual habitat of BG and YP . BG tend to be more open water fishes whereas YP tend to prefer areas frequented by LMB, weeds and cover. Overall this results in LMB encountering and preying more heavily on YP than BG, esp if both are at least common abundance. In some cases LMB may actually eat more YP than BG, even if BG are 2 or 3 times more abundant than YP. This results in YP not recruiting very many if any new YP into the pond. Thus in these situations to maintain a catchable population of YP, they have to be restocked regularly as larger individuals depending on how many larger LMB (15"+) are present.

Now comes the problem. IF you reduce the numbers of LMB to 'protect' the YP the BG become more abundant due to less predation since LMB prefer to prey on YP anyway. It is a delicate balancing act to have your cake (YP) and eat it to (BG). The type of habitat and the amount of habitat has a big influence on how well the whole balance of this particular fish combination succeeds. In some waters (Dr.Willis reports), LMB and YP work well together. I don't usually find this successful in weed free ponds in my area. BG presence complicates the LMB-YP combination.

If I was wanting just YP and LMB (w/ emphasis on YP), I would harvest all LMB over 12", and selectively remove numbers of smaller LMB based on each new year class strength of both LMB & YP. This would result in more and larger YP. This technique could maybe work okay if BG were also in the fishery.

Take not offense but as reference I do not consider water clarity of 24"-30" as crystal clear. Although some may very well experience that as clear water. For a point of reference, clear water for me is 7-10ft of visibility (secchi disk reading). IMO Crystal clear in ponds is 12ft-20ft. Usually ponds with clear water have many more weed problems due to sunlight penetrating to the entire or almost the entire pond bottom.

Removing the CC was a good idea IMO. They are predators. It would be very interesting to do a diet study of CC in the BG-YP-LMB pond to see exactly what fish the CC at most often!

"If I was wanting YP and LMB (emphasis on YP) I would harvest all LMB over 12", and selectively remove numbers of smaller LMB based on each new year class strength of both LMB & YP. This would result in more and larger YP. This technique could maybe work okay if BG were also in the fishery."

Mr. Cody said


Thank you Bill


This was my plan. I don't care about bass. I want big BG and YP, and my thought was to take out the larger LMG but let the littles ones keep the numbers down. Do you think this will work?

What about throwing in a few 10? WE to help?

How will WE help? They will eat smaller BG and LMB. Supplimental YP stockings will be hopefully too large for significant WE (16"-20") predation. I'm not sure WE are better predators of BG compared to LMB. Stocking a few WE (8"-10") IMO would not have a big negative on the fishery, unless the WE are eating a good number of small (2"-4") LMB instead of BG. Again we are dealing with predator beghavior and prey body shape.

Yes removing the larger LMB and maintaing numerous small (4"-10") LMB will put heavy predation pressure on BG. Stocked YP (7"-9") would basically be free from bass predation unless you have a couple "old smarty pants" bass.

PS: Cecil is at least temporarly resigned from this Forum. He did not think he was treated fairly nor justly by the moderators. His presence and input is missed.

That's too bad that Cecil is gone. I have been reading this forum for years. Today was my first post. I tend to read and listen rather than talk. I am not an expert, but make a good student.

So what do you really think I should do?

Biggest bass in the pond are 15-16" I took out 12-15 1014 inchers. You can catch BG all day long that are 7-10 inches. I took out 4 big cats. I am adding 50 YP and 6 lbs of GSH.

There is plenty of shallow and deep cover. and good vegetation, but not obnoxious.

Am I on the right track?

And Bill if I post pics of my pond, can you tell me if I need a bloom?

Numerous 7"-10" is a good sign. I would modify BG harvest to keeping primarily females. Learn the difference between male and Female BG if you don't already know from reading here. This will help maintain large BG and somewhat fewer BG. It probably would not hurt to remove some smaller BG (2"-4") via trapping. Start keeping the larger bass. Skew your angling toward catching larger bass, possibly using BG as bait. Remove more CC if present. Don't let vegetation become more abundant than 25-30% of the pond bottom.

If your water is not clearer than 24-26" you don't need a bloom. Hust my opinion. Others may want clarity 16-24". If clearer than the 24" then adding some horse manure/straw mix may help enhance the bloom. Try it (5 gal at a time) and then weekly check clarity with a homemade secchi disk. Nail a white cool whip container lid to an old broom stick. Mark inches on the handle.

I'm already doing most of those things.

But why keep the females? And more importantly, how many to keep? .60 acre pond. Vegetation is 2-3%.

I think I have the bass at a correct level and will actively hunt the cats. Time to set another trotline.

And also how will the YP and GSH affect the equation. Remember, I want big BG abd YP and a few CC put and take 15-18 inches for the CC.

I prolly want too much.

If we are talking about a white disc, then I can easily see down 4-5 feet. I was talking about seeing pebbles and fish on the bottom. A 3-inch white disc is visible at 4 foot, barely at 5, but visible none the less. I do not know of this test you speak of.

Is that good or bad?

I do know my wife and I like the clear water. And the fish are doing fine.

Like I said I am a pond moron.

LOL

I just bought some 11% Sweet Horse feed. Will that work? Has alot of oats, barleys and other stuff in it.

I think you'd be better off with a water soluble pond fertilizer. Something along the lines of 10-52-4. Go easy at first, wait a week or 2 to see how the bloom progresses.

My first question is do I need to do it.

My second question is Why.

My third is what does it look like?

Mdave - Okay I assumed that since you said that you lurked here for years that you knew most of the things that were discussed.

When you mentioned sweet horse feed I again assumed incorrectly and thought you ment manure. As far as I know, adding Sweet Horse feed will not fertilize the pond unless it goes through the horse first! To stimulate a plankkton bloom you need an influx of nutrients - primarily nitrogen and phosphorus, N-P. If you prefer your clearer water and fishery is satisfactory in your opinion then - don't fix it. Clear water can raise large fish, just not as many fish as water with a good bloom - visibility 16"-24" - white disk reading. Fertilizing the water if done properly can have the same affect as fertilizing your garden,more and bigger plants, although veggies and weeds both can grow better, depending on use and management.

A secchi disk is a standard water clarity analysis tool that is a white & black disk about 8" diameter that when lowered into the water until it is just barley visible canprovide a depth mesurement. A pure white disk at 6"-7" dia has close to the same visibility reading as the 8" blk& white disk. This is called the secchi depth. It provides a lot of information to those that understand water quality.
http://www.mlswa.org/secchi.htm

You ask ""But why keep the females? And more importantly, how many to keep? .60 acre pond."". There ought to be an Archives on this. (See below) Again I assumed lurking and reading taught you this. Leaving more MALES in the pond puts suppressive maturation, pressure on smaller males where they continue to grow and delay puberty. Mature BG do not grow as fast as immature BG. Thus immatures grow larger before maturing - a very good thing. Only a few females in a pond can provide more than enough young BG to overpopulate a pond. Removing mostly females skews the BG toward generally larger, later maturing BG. Number of adult BG to remove will depend on fertility of the pond. More fertile the more the harvest can be, similar to fertilizing the garden - more crop with more fertilizer. Feeding the BG high quality Aquamax carnivore fish pellets is in IMO better than fertilizing the pond, i.e. fewer potential problems while providing more fish. BG growth will not be as good in 'generic' 32% protein pellets are used.

There was an archive post on growing Big Bluegill. Guess who wrote it?
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=189988#Post189988


Ask if the fish delivery guy if the YP are pellet trained. I would have ONLY bought pellet trained YP. If so they will do tremendous on Aquamax carnivore pellets. You will have some real dandy YP in rapid time. Plus BG will also grow better, larger, and more of them. Not so much so, if you use the 32% protein pellets (any brand). The fish don't even eat the 32% protein pellets as well compared to the Aquamax. I checked this feature numerous times.

Keep the females so they don't breed.. Trust me they still will and you'll never get them all.. I caught 138 females out of my pond tonight all loaded with eggs.. I've caught well over 500 in the last couple months I have an excellent bluegill pond but i want trophy size gills.. I know I've caught very close to 2lbs before I even started any management..

Next thing forme is trapping fish I have to get these little guys away from my feeders and feed these bigs..

I fished tonight for about an hour. Caught all males 7-9" long and one female about 8". Used a one inch shallow diving rapala. I may have been over a bed. I also made a secchi disc, I can see it at 48" I have some FA, but not alot. There is vegetation around the edges, but little to non underwater. A mat of veg in the shallow input end.

Thoughts?

I really don't want to have to worry about killing my fish because of overfert and a dieoff of algae. I also don't want the mat the pond with FA.

I like the clear water, but would not be opposed to making it less clear. I really don't understand why the bottom is bare as clear as the water is.

Thoughts?

The fish are all fat and very healthy looking. Like I said before, there may be a small spring feeding this BOW. There are no ponds within a mile of me that are clear. Some are covered with FA, others are muddy, some are both.

It really is an anomally and I tend to believe the man I bought the place from. There appears to be an old well at the input area. How does that change everything?

And should I try to plant some underwater vegetation, or just wait and see what happens this year. We just bought the place in February.

Hello Dave. I'm very interested to hear how this works out for you. I'm new here too and posted a thread a couple weeks back about doing a 6 ac. YP & SMB pond. We're just east of Jericho Springs in Cedar Co. so probably not too far from you. Where did you find the YP? You can send me a private message if you'd rather not say on here.

Tyke

Howdy.

Yes we are very close, I am just 6 miles north of Lamar.

I am getting the fish from Harrison Fieheries in Hurdland, MO, next thursday. You could easily piggy back on my order. They have a website, just google them.

mdave - Those are cattails in the foreground of your last picture. I would remove them and if you want a similar shoreline plant in their place plant water iris from wild or nursery stock. Iris will provide many of the same benefits of cattails but not as many headaches.

I forgot to mention we also have deerfish in the pond.

Also here is a pic of one of the BG I caught this morning.

Removing the cattails was definately on my list of things to do. I also plan on removing the trees growing on the water line of the dam. Thanks for the info on the plants Bill.

Or you could wait and get better fish and a better deal from Rex the fish man..

I've talked with Rex and he can get me some in the fall. They're hard to find around here so I was just curious if there were any other sources I wasnt aware of.
I cant take any right now. The excavation of the new pond was supposed to begin this week but they're really backed up on other jobs because of all the rain. I've got some questions for you Dave so I'll send you a PM.

Sent you a reply, but FYI, I have located a dealer in Nevada, MO that will order Aquamax fish pellets. I ordered a bag today for myself $35. I can send you the name and phone number if you want. It's a nine-day lead time to get it though.

What is a deerfish? Never heard of one...

I quess you didn't download the pics. Lol it's a deer

Nope... Too big a pain to do on my smart phone.

Then why do they call it a smart phone.

You have to be really smart to own one.. (that's why I have one )

there is an atricle in Dakota Country Magazine titled the Perch/Bluegill Connection by Mike strand Outdoors.

Now granted this article is about bigger bodies of water and fishing not just fish managment, but the principles may still apply. His theory is if you find Jumbo perch in a lake than there are also big Gills (should BG be present).

His theory is that once a perch reaches 8" it can become a baby bluegill eating machine, keeping them from overpopulating. And the perch eating their own young too.

He also states that perch and BG live in different areas of a lake with perch generally being deeper, they just need to come in to contact at certian times during the year.

The catch in his theory is that the lake has to be a natural producer of big perch for them to properly regulate the BG.

That being said if there are bass in the lake to help regulate the BG and perch them selves it should even things out well (in my perch loving opinion).

I have no idea about feeding pellets to wild fish, but htat would definatly fatten things up all the way around.

Dave, did you get your Perch last week?