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I am going to try and have the most reliable fastest paced pond that i can get. i plan on aerating AND feeding bluegill. i only want to stock BG and LMB. are hybrid bluegill better for this goal or normal bluegill?

is a semi large but stunted LMB poplulation good or bad for this goal?

i really only want to catch fish, but being able to catch some decent sized eaters is the ultimate goal.

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Whether you choose pure BG or HBG depends on your final goals and if you desire to have to restock every couple of years... I would just go with pure BG if I was in your shoes.

What is in your pond now? Have you stocked anything yet? Keep in mind you are a more northern pond, stocking BG before or with LMB often leads to stunting of the BG.

Look in the archives section of the forum and look up the thread on growing nice BG posted by Bill Cody. Feeding and aeration will help increase growth rates and the over all number of fish your .5 acre pond can support...

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IGW:
If you go back through all my posts you will probably see that I am a true believer in HBG. However, like most things in life, there are trade-offs to consider when deciding to choose HBG over BG. There is tons of info here about both fish, in addition Bill Cody just did a great intro piece on HBG, it's in the archives. (Thanks, Bill!!)

You say you want a reliable, fast-paced pond. Reliable as in how? One that's not likely to winterkill? One that regularly produces good catches? As far as fast paced action goes, HBG are usually that alright. That's usually touted as one of their main selling points, matter-of-fact.

The main drawbacks you hear about HBG usually revolve around four issues:

"They don't reproduce enough to feed your Bass"....Very true, but if we're talking about a dedicated BG pond, this may not be an issue.

"Their offspring turn into Green Sunfish".... Technically speaking, no. But each succeeding generation may have less of the qualities you desire, and more of the ones you don't. I haven't had my fish long enough to experience this yet, so I can't be sure. Time will tell, I still advocate controlling HBG reproduction by predation.

"Regular BG grow larger than HBG."....Again, I haven't had mine long enough to experience their ultimate growth potential. There are studies out there that show BG will obtain larger sizes then HBG, but some of these studies where conducted in indoor tanks, not under actual pond conditions, and the authors acknowledged this fact. I feel that the growing conditions will play a big part in the eventual size obtained.

"You have to keep buying fish"... Yep, that's correct. You will need to keep track of your annual fish harvest, so you can replenish those fish that are removed. You will have to establish a cycle of removal and renewal, to maintain harvestable sized fish. I'm going to try and keep 3-4 different size classes moving through my pond.

It is generally recognized that native BG are much more likely to stunt in a small pond, than HBG. However, if managed correctly the BG will achieve large sizes, provide forage for your bass, (remember, in a dedicated BG pond you WANT skinny, hungry Bass!), and not need annual replenishment. It all comes down to which direction do you want your management energies to be directed?


Bottom line, and this is just my opinion, it's hard to screw up a HBG pond. You maintain an adequate predator base, feed the fish, keep vegetation to a minimum, take care of your water quality, (aeration), and in a couple years you'll have HBG swimming all over the 1 lb. mark, and no stunted fish.

If I were starting fresh, in a new pond, I would stock HBG again, use HSB as my population control, and MAYBE, if I felt the pond was deep enough, and If I found the right supplier, throw in a few female YP as a bonus. All feed trained, virtually no chance of stunting, fast growth, potential for large size, hard fighters...
Downside? I think this pond might be heavily dependent upon the pondmeister for everything. Very little natural forage, so artificial food use would be huge, which could lead to water quality issues, which could lead to an explosion of plant growth, which might contribute to a winter fishkill. Back to the management again, how much hands-on are you willing to contribute?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I have been thinking LONG and hard about HSB bluegill and it seems like it would be a really fun combo. two questions though. will the bluegill be enough to provide forage for the hsb? what order of stocking (pond not dug yet) what kind of structure for HSB?

how many and of what.

ect. i dont want a very very high maintanance pond. but i do plan on aerating and feeding. will this lead to the potential of a weed problem? i do not want a weed problem at all as we plan on swimming in this pond.

also, should i decide to go to a bg lmb combo, how would i do that, and what will end up happening to the HSB?

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Originally Posted By: Indygunworks
I have been thinking LONG and hard about HSB bluegill and it seems like it would be a really fun combo. two questions though. will the bluegill be enough to provide forage for the hsb? what order of stocking (pond not dug yet) what kind of structure for HSB?

how many and of what.

ect. i dont want a very very high maintanance pond. but i do plan on aerating and feeding. will this lead to the potential of a weed problem? i do not want a weed problem at all as we plan on swimming in this pond.

also, should i decide to go to a bg lmb combo, how would i do that, and what will end up happening to the HSB?


I doubt that the HBG would provide enough stand alone food for the HSB. You would probably want to establish some additional forage, perhaps FHM, before you put them in.
Remember also, that HSB will feed on pelleted food like your HBG.
How many? With feeding and aeration you can bump up the numbers, However I'm still researching this myself. I have questions regarding whether or not the additional, pre-stocked forage for the HSB might impact their predation on yoy HBG.

My current HBG pond is 2/3 acre, and I stocked 500 HBG, and since I also went with LMB, I don't have any figures on HSB. I can tell you that I am Bass heavy now, and I still adding smaller Bass as I catch them. I am a firm believer in having a lot of skinny, hungry Bass in a BG pond.

Since your pond will be new, I wouldn't think you would experience an undesirable weed explosion immediately, perhaps you should look into getting some beneficial plants established to utilize the nutrients in any uneaten feed, and fish waste that will be produced. I know the pondweed has taken over my pond, to the point that I'm considering drastic measures. Starting from scratch would at least give you a head start on being able to choose your plants, rather than react to them like I'm doing now.
Maybe someone more knowledgeable will chime in with a better plan, I am still feeling my way around as I go....


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I initially questioned if this combination would work well. Overstocking HSB with the HBG should control the young HBG. It could work with BG however there would have to be more HSB/ac for BG compared to HBG due primarily to number of young produced by BG vs HBG. The stocking combo did work for yellow perch in a 1/2 ac pond to the point the HSB over controlled the YP and almost no YP recruitment occurred in a clean bottomed pond. One good feature of using HSB and their characteristic of no reproduction, is if you have too many take some out; not enough add some. HSB will heavily feed on the pellets, however if there are not enough pellets and too many HSB they should resort to eating small HSB. At times you may have to remove some larger F2-F4 generation HBG (4"-6") when they might become too abundant as you are modifying the numbers of HSBass. Now the big question is how many would the right number for your pond? Several things will contribute to the answer: feeding and frequency, aeration, weed growth, amout of structure - habitat, planned harvest rate.

I think a good plan would incorporate stocking of a few HSB each year or every two years to maintain numerous year classes of HSB each feeding on a different predominant size of BG/HBG while a annual harvest of a few larger HSB also occurred annually. HSB in good conditions in north central US can live to be pretty old - 19-21yrs.

""what kind of structure for HSB?"" HSB are an open water fish they don't need structure and structure may actually hinder their abilty to prey on fish.

If you want a swimming pool pond with numerous fish, you will constantly fight string algae and weeds for as long as you own the pond especially true if you feed the fish. Feeding fish produces more fish, more fish produce more manure, more manure produces more plant growth and lots of it. This concept is trying to manage a water body at two ends of the spectrum high fish - low plant growth; two opposite types of water quality.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 04/30/11 08:45 PM.

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well lets talk about water quality for a minute. and a few other things. i dont mind dirty water. it doesnt have to be pretty clear for swimming, just not alot of algea or other aquatic growth in the center/deep area where we will be swimming. does that change things?

what plants should i put into the pond to help w/ water quality and to prevent those large algea blooms?

thinking about once its dug stocking FHM, bluegill, RES and yello perch. let them get established, then stock 50 or so HSB.

how do i pellet train my HSB or will it occur natrally?

how big will my HSB get? what management practices should i use?

is this even a viable goal?

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I like corkscrew eel grass and American pondweed. They are my two preferred submerged aquatic species. How well they'll help prevent algae blooms, I am not sure...

There is a BIG difference between pure bluegill(BG) and hybrid bluegill(HBG). Do not forget that... I do not see anyway possible that HSB alone can control BG reproduction. You will almost undoubtedly end up with a pile of stunted BG. The mouth gape of a HSB is minute compared to a LMB and even a SMB has a bigger mouth. This means HSB just don't have mouths big enough to feed on the size BG you'll need them to to control them. Second, HSB are open water predators... They're primary forage species are open water fish, shad, shiners and silversides. Not structure hugging fish like BG. This is in no way meant to say that HSB in a pond will not feed on BG. If that is their only forage, they certainly will but again, it's not their bread and butter.

In northern ponds there is NO reason to stock sunfish, particularly BG ahead of your bass. At the earliest you should stock them together and it is IMO you should stock your bass first and your BG a year later. This is with the assumption that you are are stocking the most common fingerling sizes of 2"-4" fish. LMB growth is just not fast enough in northern ponds to keep up with BG growth and reproduction. Other forage species can and should be stocked ahead of time, such as your FHM and GSH. RES because they do not stunt can be given a head start on the bass. I would also stock your YP at the same time as the bass.

If you are planning on just stocking HSB and no LMB or SMB, then I would make sure you have a fair percentage of HSB in the 20"+ range before stocking any BG. I would want at least 1/3 of my HSB to be 20"+ before stocking any BG. Even then I think your BG will still not be controlled by the HSB alone. Is there a reason you want to only stock HSB and not SMB or LMB? If you stock YP, they will assist in controlling BG YOY, particularly in the cooler months of the year when the YP are very active and the BG are more lethargic. You'll possibly run into issues with the YP stunting with just HSB predation, particularly is they are very successful spawners in your pond.

Almost all if not all HSB come pellet trained from the hatchery so training them yourself will not be an issue.

How larger your HSB get will depend on a number of factors. If they are pellet fed high quality feed and fed often, that will be a large factor. Other available food sources will also play into it. As mentioned before, HSB feed on open water species mostly, like shad, shiners and silversides. Ponds with healthy populations of those species will do better. You are too far north for tshad and silversides, so that leavs gshad and GSH. Gshad aren't even a consideration for your goals and pond size, so they only suitable open water species for your pond would be GSH. Also, larger HSB are temperature and DO sensitive. As HSB start pushing 6-8 pounds their sensitivity rises and by 10 pounds they become even more sensitive. I would say in a 0.5 acre pond, you won't be able to keep the water cool enough are oxygenated enough for HSB over the 6-8 pound range... So expect them to top out at that size.

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by top out at that range do you mean die? or just not grow any bigger?

i was leaning away from LMB because i thought they would be bad for the HSB but apparently not.

if i stock GSH will i have to worry about them should i decide to stop stocking HSB?

also, i do plan on RES probably stocked w/ my FHM. once they are established i will stock LMB and maybe HSB. if i do this when should i add GSH? also, i dont care about HUGE HSB, they are great fighters even as smaller 2-3 pound fish and still have plenty of meat on them.

so far this is my favorite plan. if i go this round i will probably let the LMB stunt to get a great bluegill fishery, and when i am fishing i will do the trick w/ cutting the fins of smaller BG. this way i can use a BG and bobber to catch my bigger HSB.

sound like a decent plan?

when do i put the aquatic plants in?

how would i controll the algea in this sort of pond?

i can aearate 24/7 if needed as well as in the winter, but for the life of the pumps sake i would prefer to aearate at night for 12 hours.

are these reasonable goals? how hard are HSB that are pellet trained to catch in a pond like this? what tactics would i use to catch them? i will probably be fishing for them w/ a 6'6" ultra light spinning rod w/ 4 pound test so even a small fish on that set up will take a while to get in.

also, i thought adding the YP would be good just for the HSB, but if the HSB are pellet trained and additional forage is not needed then i would like to leave them out to allow more biomass in bluegill.

will HSB run the bluegill away from the feed like CC do?

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I tend to agree with CJ's comments. I will add that why would HSB expend time and effort eating BG if HSB are feeding heavily on pellets? This is why I also think secondarily that HSB are not good at controlling BG esp if pellet feeding is used. Keep in mind that all the fish combinations you are considering (HSB,SMB,YP,RES,GSH, can be fairly easily changed to a LMB-BG fishery, but LMB-BG can rarely be changed without killing & restarting to those other fish dominated situations.

I have found HSB are aggressive feeders and when lots of them are present they can dominate the feeding area. This is sort of dependent on how any HSB are present. More exerts more dominance. A few HSB 12-16/ac), then usually no problem in other fish getting pellets.

For wise management and effective chemical algae control and management, I am currently 'sold' on using peroxygen carbonate (Phycomycin, Pak 27, Green Clean Pro) especially in smaller ponds. Peroxygen leaves no residue, reacts quickly, will oxidize (breakdown) smallest organics, is not affected by water hardness, has minimal impact on invertebrates/fish, and helps oxygenate the pond as it reacts. Used correctly it can be fairly selective on nuisance bluegreen algae blooms. It can be used efffectively to 'trim the bloom' and retard early stage algae growth.

Establish plants asap, so they get growing as the nutrients begin accumulating early. Some of the better type of plants are most often only available from water garden stores and become fairly costly if lots are needed. Thus to get a good number established so they are effective it takes time for a purchase and planting of $20-$30 to expand the plant basis.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 05/01/11 05:47 PM.

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