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#25524 06/09/05 10:03 AM
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I have recently been given a 4-acre pond to manage in the eastern part of WV from an aunt who has no interest in it. The majority of the pond is only 3 to 4 feet deep. There is a 5 to 10 foot deep section by the dam and a 5 to 7 foot channel leading from a springhouse to the hole at the dam. The rest of the pond is somewhat featureless and shallow. To combat the weeds, Grass Carp/Israel fish were stocked and they took over the pond.

I have done a lot of netting and found all different sizes of Carp so they are breading. Minnows were thick as well I found the majority to be some kind of Dance. Other existing forage includes a few badly stunted sun fish probably green’s, tons of crawfish, and few hog suckers.

I have plenty of bass and pan fishing opportunities so I thought about doing something fun with the pond. I was thinking of stocking Musky or Tiger Musky for the purpose of cleaning out the pond while growing a few trophy size fish. The biomass of the grass carp is unbelievable, so they would have pretty of forage. I took some of the 6 to 7 inch carp and used them for bait in the Potomac River the Tiger Musky there seemed to approve.

The question is how many to stock? Should I use the sterile Hybrids or the regular Musky's I considered Pike but due to the shallowness of the pond I figured it would be too warm in the summer despite being spring feed. Pickerel is another possibility but would only be able to feed on the smaller fish. Since the biggest carp are in the ten to twenty pound range the breeding stock is well established.

#25525 06/09/05 10:14 AM
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If I recall correctly Israeli Carp are a variant of common Carp sometimes touted for vegetation control.

Is it the Israeli Carp that spawned successfully, or were diploid (fertile) Grass Carp stocked in the pond?

Stocking BIG agressive predators like Northerns or Muskies is an interersting approach. If the pond is too warm for Northerns, I think Muskies would have trouble too (but I am no Muskie expert).

I suggest keeping track of the water temperatures at various locations/depths throughout the Summer; that should tell you what species of the Pike family should make it in the pond. Then line up your fish and stock in the Fall when temperatures for transporting stockers are better.

I don't think either Northerns or Muskies would spawn successfully in the pond; if you had to choose between those two or Tiger Muskies, I'd pick whichever I thought would do best given the water temps. I have no idea as to how many, but there are a few Muskie threads in the archives and maybe they say.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#25526 06/09/05 10:29 AM
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These Carp are fully functional when it comes to reproducing. They are very similar to the Common European Carp except they are a dark gray color, with slightly different shaped fins and scales.

I checked the temp of the pond last Aug. and in the channel leading out of the spring and in the deeper water by the dam I took readings in the mid sixties to low seventy’s. In the shallow areas temps were as high as 82.

#25527 06/09/05 09:18 PM
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JB - If you are a "big musky man" then do the musky stocking. However LM bass will do a better overall job of controling the runaway carp and sunfish population. LM bass will be more numerous in the pond than musky plus the LMB will spawn and supply young predators to feed on small fish. Musky will be fairly selective for larger carp based on the musky's size. The LMB population will collectively eat more pounds of trash fish than the musky population.

You will be able to tell if the resident predators are doing a fairly good job of carp control because the water will begin to show more clarity as the carp population decreases. Perpetually muddy water will hinder the feeding efficiency of both musky and LMB.

Eventually or long term I think you or someone will have to rotenone the pond and start over. Best plan would be to draw the pond down and rotenone the low pool. Drainig the pond could be combined with deepening and reshaping bottom areas.


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#25528 06/09/05 09:55 PM
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I really totally agree with Theo and Bill's recommendations. I will admit that even when a stocking strategy isn't considered the classic or ideal approach there is a part of me that wants John Boat to try it so maybe we can all learn a little more about muskies in ponds, good or bad.

FYI, in Nebraska waters that are too warm for northern pike, muskies often do quite well. If I'm not mistaken, the purebred muskie is more tolerant of warm water than either NP or NP X Muskie hybrids by about 3 degrees Celsius.


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#25529 06/09/05 11:01 PM
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Only because of the mention of musky here, I have to ask: Has anyone ever seen a kind of low budget fishing show on TV called Rod-n-Reel Streamside featuring a guy named Don Meisner? It was on maybe ten years ago.

There was one episode where he was fishing a river in the North East and his buddy hooks into a huge musky. The whole rest of the show is basically this guy fighting the one musky.

Then right before the 30 minute show is up, the musky gets off.

During the ending run of commercials before the next program, the TV cuts back to Don Meisner. He says how they thought they'd never see that fish again, but as they're going back to shore, they see this same huge musky sunning itself in these weeds.

So they go and get a net and try to sneak up on it. Sure enough, the net the thing. They hold the net up out of the water, and somehow the net gets a hole in it, and the musky falls back into the water, never to be seen again.

The show itself was never good, but I've always wondered if anyone else ever saw that episode.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#25530 06/10/05 07:22 AM
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John, the majority of freshwater fishermen around the world would envy you. That's how popular carp are. I read that the world championship of carp fishing will be held in New York this year. The value we place on a fish species is all in our mind. For pure fishing excitment, a combination of carp and muskies would be hard to beat.


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#25531 06/10/05 10:45 AM
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Funny you should say that I fought one on a 5-wt fly rod for ½ an hour last night. It was 28 inches and weighed 17 and ¼. Since the big carp are safe from any predator I’m going to go ahead and stock regular old musky. I’m going to give them time to clean up the pond and hopefully grow to a harvestable size. The ultimate short-term goal would be to grow a citation Musky.

This will give me time to really figure out what to do with the pond. From what I’ve read the prospects of a long term sufessful Musky fishery is slim in such a small pond. Short term however it may be a blast. I have no doubt that eventually I will drain and start from scratch, but for now I’ll give it a try.

#25532 06/10/05 01:16 PM
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I believe that Tiger Musky are sterile. If that's true, there's no chance of them overpopulating.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#25533 06/10/05 03:33 PM
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They are a sterile cross between a Musky and a Northern Pike. WV, MD, and VA stock them in lakes and local rivers in my area. The biggest difference is size; a musky can grow to 50inches/ 50 pounds, a tiger musky can be as long but might only top the scales at 35 to 40 pounds (in WV any way).

#25534 06/10/05 05:26 PM
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John Boat,
I'm with you on this one. It will be a fun venture & something I hope you will keep records on & report back to us!
If the water is too warm then you could try alligator gar in place of the muskies.

One concern though, keep it quiet. If word gets out you have muskies I'll bet you'll set new records for poaching!


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#25535 06/13/05 11:07 AM
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Stocked the pond this weekend with 8 8-10 inch Musky. I clipped fins incase I add more later. 2 per Acre is probably too low density but I wanted to be safe to start. I also added 2 10-inch bowfins just for the hell of it.

I have never seen a pond so full of minnows before due to the lack of predators. Between the minnows and the carp there should be plenty of food for the foreseeable future. I’ll do netting in August and see if there has been any impact.

#25536 06/13/05 12:53 PM
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If you read back to previous posts, none of these hybrids are sterile. Even HSB can and have reproduced.


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#25537 06/13/05 05:11 PM
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Hey John, Good Luck, sounds like it will be a fun learning experience for you.
I am right next to you in Loudoun County. I am looking forward to your future posts on this.

#25538 06/14/05 02:12 PM
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Whops, I almost caused a local panic by stocking the bowfins. Last night I when to the pond, I was accosted by the man who cuts hay in a field near the pond. He walked around it to see if he could see one of the musky. Instead he saw one of the bowfins hanging out under the dock. He assumed it was a Snakehead and was irate that I would stock them in a pond. Had I been away this week I might have come home to a drained pond and some angry DNR guys.

Snake Heads have been found in Lower Potomac River an in two ponds in Maryland in the last few years, so people are panicking at the sight of any strange fish. I had to show him pictures of what a Bowfin looked like before he believed me.

#25539 06/14/05 02:40 PM
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John,

Actually, there are similarities as discussed here:

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fish/infish/regulate/snakehead-bowfin.phtml

#25540 06/14/05 03:07 PM
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Hey John,
I looked up a picture of the Bowfin, and thought about its similiarity to the snakefish.

Snakehead:


Bowfin:

I wonder what the ramifications are for both fish? We have a snakehead problem here in VA, but the bowfin looks just like it. I am wondering if the behavior is different.

#25541 06/16/05 08:54 AM
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Bowfins take a lot longer to mature than a snakehead. I have read that the do not mature for four or five years. The snakeheads caught in the Potomac River near Mount Vernon seem to be growing at a much faster rate. Bowfins are fairly aggressive fish that prefer slack water with lots of weed cover. I have caught them on top water crank baits, Texas rigged worms, and Jigs while fishing for Bass. The Snakeheads caught in the Potomac also have hit baits intended for largemouth. Both Species though unrelated can breath air for periods of time.

The two main differences in appearance that the head is tapered in the snakehead and rounded on the bowfins also the anal fin is very long on the snakehead. In VA you only find the Bowfin in the Southwest corner of the state in water that is part of the Ohio/Tenn. River Basins. There are bowfins in ponds across other parts of the state but they are pretty rare. I think there are just as fun as LMB catch but due to taking so long to mature would be very hard to manage in a fishery.I’m guessing if the snakehead threat grows, a lot of bowfins will be thrown up on the bank or in the bottom of the boat.

#25542 06/20/05 07:32 AM
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I was working on fly-casting with my little cousin this weekend and he landed a 3-pound carp. His reaction was priceless; at age 6 he thought he caught a whale. While we were fishing one of the Musky ambushed something about 30 feet down the bank from us. Even though they aren’t quite a foot long it was quite an explosion in shallow water.

By the way I don’t care what the rest of the world thinks Carp tastes nasty!

#25543 08/17/05 09:12 AM
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Over the last week or two a hole in the dam turned into a cut. Last night I discovered the pond to be a stream bead connecting three small very crowded pools. I have friends and equipment to come help repair the dam tonight but I was wondering if I should take this opportunity to renovate the pond. I was thinking about creating some structure with rock pyramids with in casting distance from shore. May be digging a few holes in the shallow parts that are a flat as a swimming pool. I have a buddy with a dump truck that will bring me a couple loads of gravel for spawning beds.

Since the pond is spring feed the fish while stressed seem ok for the most part. I could thin out the Israeli carp, and remove any undesirable fish. I would leave all the small carp for the Musky and Bow fins too eat plus a few big breeders. I could probably take out 500 to 1000 pounds no problem. There are coulds of minnows so no problem there for extra forage. Because of the creek I have lots of snails and crawfish too. When it’s filled back up it will be pushing four acres total surface area with an average depth of 4 ½ feet. I was thinking have stocking Blue gill and Red Ears this fall and LMB this coming spring. I still am interested in the Musky/ Bow Fin Experiment but this is too good an opportunity to renovate the pond. How many blue gills and red ears would you recommend stocking?

PS I netted one of the Musky that was 10 inches when stocked two months ago and it measured 13 ¼ inches!

#25544 08/26/05 02:23 PM
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HI Sunil, I know I'm late with a reply, but I just got on board this week. RE: Rod and Reel Streamside

Funny thing- I was reviewing some old video tapes that I had in the basement to see what was on them- i come across an episode of "Streamside"
I really liked the show cause it was pretty low key and nobody was out to prove anything. I also was doing a lot of river fishing at that time. I liked the fact that Don could laugh at himself when he screwed up.

Of course I only got 3 channels back then and it was the only fishing show I could get. I think it was on PBS.

#25545 08/26/05 03:40 PM
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Yes fishbird, lowkey is a good way to describe it. Low budget would also apply.

This guy Don would literally talk for five minutes while forgetting that he was holding a live fish in his hands.

You didn't see that episode with the huge musky though?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#25546 08/27/05 09:34 AM
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sunil,
yes i do remember the musky episode and his habit of holding fish too long would bug me also. After he held it for awhile, it usually would drop in the bottom of the boat and flop around awhile. Hopefully his releases survived.


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