Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site 20-mil Pond Liner

I have a farm pond that is approx. 3 and 1/2 acres. This pond has continually leaked for the last several years never coming close to filling up. I've already tried to line with clay but that didn't work. The area I'm in is known for limestone deposits so that is probably the source of the problem. I researched bentonite I feel that is not a good way to go. It is definitely not a sure thing. Is a pond liner my last resort for an acceptable pond? Has anyone in my area installed a liner this big? I wouldn't mind doing it myself to save money if I could buy the material locally at a good price. Thanks for any advice. Jimn

Welcome to PB Jim!

I'm sure in short order the experts will chime in with some answers for you!

1234, if you don't have the issue of PBMag from last year (May/June 2006 - Thanks, Bill Cody for the index!) with the article on liners in it, buy the back issue.

I have the same problem with a much smaller pond. The soil test showed 35% clar, we saw no rock during the dig and it looked like nice dirt. I even had the great Mike Otto come out and look at it. Initially he said the soil looked acceptable but when we dug test holes and filled them with 5 gal of water, they got dry in about 90 min. We also made some balls of dirt out of the soil to see if/how fast they would break down. Have you done these tests?
Please share with me your experience with adding clay. I'm about to get me hands on some nice black Texas gumbo clay to line the pond with. Did you compact the clay while it was moist?
Tony

1234, sounds like a possible fix might be something we discussed here on this thread , but no one had really tried it or could commit that it (part liner/part clay) might work. how did you install the clay? there could have been issues with that if it wasnt done right.

rolandfarm
sounds like you had a much higher silt percantage than clay in native soils there, and that'l let water through. in adding the imported clay it will be important to do a few things right including: blending with native soil, correct moisture content, compaction

blend it in and compact with the upper part of your native soil. i would say a good ratio would be about 3:1, three parts clay, 1 part native soil but this really depends on what the native soil is. coarser grained native soil will help keep the clay from rapidly expanding or contracting with varying moisture levels. if you put the clay on as a pure layer, it will be more likely to develop holes, cracks or thin spots that will let water through.

keep it moist......not wet, not dry, not very moist, not slightly moist......but moist. sounds funny, but its an actual soil classification terminology that ranges from dry to wet. you want moist clay. if yer in a remote area, think about getting a water truck on site.

compact, compact, compact. i probably should have used a sheepsfoot, but didnt.

after we "tilled" mine in mixing it with native soil, compacting with weight of excavator and re-compacting with dozers, i ran a sprinkler on it every couple days to keep it moist until the rains came. if mine had dried out shrank and cracked i'd've been toast cause we layed out the soils over fractured bedrock.

just some thoughts based on my limited experiences, other opinions may vary and are very welcome

DIED-
I agree with your thoughts and will discuss them with the engineer that is going to manage the repair.
Did you think about bentonite at all? I spoke with the guys at Texas Sodium Bentonite and they stayed short of giving me a guarantee. Their response was, "we will not leave you hanging if it continues to leak". With all the people in doubt about bentonite you would think they would pick someone's pond and do a free repair and post the pictures and testimonials. If they did one free pond a year that would be better than any other form of advertising. What do I know, I spent 35 years in marketing.
1234- I apologize if I'm hijacking your thread.
Tony

1234 sorry here too, but maybe some of this is applicable to yer problems.

roland, i ruled out bentonite early on only cause there are no bentonite deposits anywhere close to me. the best bentonite comes from WY or TX, and for you it might be a real good option......the type of clay i used (kaolinite) has a far lower "shrink/swell" characteristic than bentonite. bentonite is a huge "sweller" and if not available in bulk, should be available in different sieve sizes - at a minimum from powder (gel) through 1/2" (chip size) but of course you'l pay more for the processed stuff...i dont know my TX geography at all, if McKinney is close to any natural deposits yer in great shape.

DIED-
I'm very close to bentonite sources but it is still expensive for this retired old man. Two truckloads were quoted at $3500 each. Labor estimate was another $3500.
Tony

I've used bentonite 3 times. It worked once but I have no reason to believe that I know how to do it correctly.

BTW, the labor, in my opinion, is under priced.

Thanks for the thoughts on Bentonite but I'm in Alabama and shipping cost associated with it coming from the west would be too much. I have been told several times that everyone around this area of the country has received mixed results with Bentonite and that's why I'm looking for a sure-fire way of fixing this pond. I was thinking of some kind of liner but it is so expensive?

In response to Roland Farm, About two years ago we had a Geotech do some soil samples and recommend the method of placement of soils that were available on site. I thought this would work but it didn't. This watershed pond will only hold a couple of feet of water a any given time. Is there anyway to find a leak in a pond this size? Is the only 100% sure way to fix a pond permanently that has been built on a site with poor soil conditions is to use a liner? Jim

For what it's worth...

I've read that Joel Salatin, a creative farmer in Virginia who uses ponds a lot, claims that he uses hogs to seal a pond that won't hold water. He said this was the old-timers method. Let the hogs run in there for awhile and they will root/pack/wallow the bottom so it holds water. I have no experience with this but it has apparently worked for him and others. If you find a copy of his "You Can Farm" or "Salad Bar Beef" books I believe there are chapters on Ponds. Maybe you can consider this as a last resort?

I don't know, Tim. I have a real small pond that I had cleaned out. It's about 40 ft. by 40 ft. and about 6 ft. deep. They hit sand and quit. I got 3 or 4 front end loaders of clay for it and mashed it down as good as my tractor would do it. It still leaked. Then feral hogs moved in. There is nothing they like better than than wet clay. They've been there many times walking and rolling in it. It still leaks. I've seen and heard of it a lot of times but can't find anybody that said "I did it".

Langston U. in Oklahoma mentions that as a possible approach, using hogs or goats (they're a goat research school; I'm sure the TX guys have something to say about that). I got the impression it is a compaction approach to try that is relatively inexpensive - by some livestock, feed them in the bowl for a year, and see if it works.

FWIW. I know cattle will make a natural pond and seal it if the conditions are right. A friend's father had some cattle that worked a low spot, and over several months it became a small pond. Also I have heard goats do not like water. But I have no experence with goat farming.

Donnie

I have been scanning the posts here for information on the use of liners. I have been surprised to find that the use of clay or bentonite are preferred to the use of plastic liners. I work for a company that makes a product that I have not seen mentioned. This product has been used since 1958 to seal lakes and ponds. I am wondering what this community thinks of such a product and why the suspicion concerning synthetic liners.

How much would it cost to line a 15' deep, 3:1 side slope, 1 acre oval pond with your product?

Suspicion about synthetic liners? Or about the product that's been in use since 1958? Just wondering. I didn't quite understand the query.

Last year, Mike Otto wrote a series of articles on sealing leaky ponds. He wrote about ESS-13 in the July-August, 2006 issue. In other issues he wrote about using natural, abundant clay to line a pond, bentonite and plastic liners. Also, I have a complete chapter in my newest book, "Perfect Pond" related to leaky ponds and I included much detail about ESS-13.
There really is not any suspicion about using synthetic liners. Some areas of the nation require plastic liners. Much of the nation has plenty of good, plastic natural clay...the most preferred material of all. Bentonite works well in certain conditions, as does ESS-13. After two lengthy interviews with Seepage Control representatives, they made us understand that ESS-13 is a natural oil-based emulsion which attaches to marginal soils (no rock, sand or gravel) that allows the soils to be compacted. I really don't see any suspicion about any of the products.
Most people here on our website are trying to figure out how to take care of their problems. Their problems are cause of their suspicion, if there is any suspicion at all. Good folks here realize their pond is leaking, but don't know or understand why. Therefore, they aren't sure how to "fix" the problem. Then, when they start to seek answers, those people who are "in the know" start off by qualifying themselves and their products. Suppliers, as much as the landowners, know that trying to stop a leaky pond can be a crapshoot, unless the pond is drained, soils evaluated and lots of money is spent, no matter which product ends up being used.
Each product stands on its own merit....it how and when to use those products that bumfuzzles some people.

Ryan,

$13550 is the cost for waterborne application. Other applications such as till and compact or spray on applications would cost a few thousand more. This is mostly a guess on my part, I don't have what is needed for accurate figures. My post was mostly about the attitude toward pond lining materials and why I saw so little about them here.

I'm pretty sure you just went a long way toward answering your own question. For that price, I would need a non-qualified money back guarantee that the product would work to allow less than X amount of seepage per Y unit of time. BUT...if there was such a guarantee, it may well be worth it. Options are draining, drying, installing liner, getting the seams to stick right, etc., for a plastic liner. A lot of work for whomever undertakes it.

ESS13, what would be the cost of product only, including shipping, for Ryan's pond. Where is the FOB point? Do you also sell the plastic liners, or are you considering this option for your own pond?
thanks

No, that would not include FOB to Ohio, only material. This is also the cost estimate for a waterborne application. Volume XV, No. 1 July/August 2006 has a good article by Mike Otto can explain how it works and the limits. Seepage Control does not sell plastic liners. The article is very helpful.

So, you used the pond liner thread as a vehicle to plug your product? Your estimate was for product only? No shipping, no applicaation charges? You need to be sure of this, or put a sales guy on. BTW...I read the article.

That price is pretty steep