Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Renovating a Pond or Lake? Leaking Neighborhood Pond

I was happy to recently find this forum as I have been scratching my head on how to proceed on fixing a neighborhood pond problem(s). I recently moved into a home in an acre lot subdivision in central Oklahoma. I share an acre pond with four neighbors. When we initially looked at the house (Jul 10) the pond was completely full, most likely do to a week of heavy rain. It was down several feet by the time we moved in (Aug 10) and has continued to drop to point where there is only a few feet of water left. What few fish that were in the pond started floating to the surface a few weeks ago after the ice thawed. During a recent trip behind the dam I discovered a small spring that I can only assume is getting its water from the pond. Besides the leaking and low water level I also have a pond scum problem, something to tackle after I get the leak fixed.
Any suggestions on what would be the best way to fix the leak? Could I just purchase Bentonite to spread across the water or would it be best to drain and then repair? It may not be likely, but I’d like to keep the cost as low as possible. I’m willing to do the work myself if it would mean getting the problem fixed (the first time) and saving myself some money. Last question, does anyone know of any experts or pond consultants in the Oklahoma City area?
I’ve include a few pictures but hope to post a recent full view picture tomorrow of the nearly dry pond.
Neighborhood Pond Full (Jul10)

Sorry to hear about your problem Ted. Tossing bentonite and hoping it fixes the leak is called sprinkling. I've never heard of it working.

I see at least one big tree that appears to be on the dam and I would expect that the root system has caused the problem. Killing the tree will only cause a void which will, if possible, make the leak worse. I know of no quick (cheap) fix. The tree can be removed and the dam repaired. Leaks can seldom be fixed either cheaply or easily.

For a pond/dam consultant contact Mike Otto at 800 882-3478.

It's hard having a shared pond unless all the neighbors are on the same page. I hope you can resolve the pond problem. It's really nice to have a pond right by the house. I second calling Otto, or I think Tim Pinney is in OK.

I appreciate the quick and helpful responses.
Good eye Dave. As you can tell from the added pictures there are several trees along the dam. I hadn’t considered the trees before but obviously they may be the prime suspect. The center tree (see photo) sets on the far pond side of the dam and just opposite to the spring (see photo). I suspect the developer planted the trees during construction of the subdivision back in 1994 without considering the long term impact.
Your right ESSUP, I would prefer owning the pond myself. I have at least one neighbor who is willing to spend a little time and money on the pond. I haven’t talked yet with the other two neighbors but suspect they wouldn’t mind having it fixed. Helping pay for it may be a different story though. If I can get some assistance from my neighbors and the HOA I would be willing to spend the money to get it fixed.
Thanks again for the comments. Any additional suggestions/help would be greatly appreciated.
Pond Pictures

Ted, that's terrible. Call Otto.

Ted; first welcome to Pond Boss You are going to love this place, and the people here are the best in the world. That is about the only guarantee you are going to get.
I almost always start with “no pond stays full to the brim all the time”, of course some do a lot better that other. Evaporation gets a lot and the dirt gets the rest.
All ponds can be made to hold water but before you start spending money let’s get a little more information.
A few observations and a few questions to get going.
It looks like the pond has been worked on from the pictures. Ask the neighbors about that.
The material kind of looks sandy but it is hard to tell for sure.
Also it does not look very deep but that is hard to tell for sure also.
Are there any other ponds close? How are they doing? About the same or better?
Trees are never good on a dam but by the time we see a problem it is too late to cut them down and do any good. To fix a tree root problem can require a lot of dirt work.
Check with the neighbors and see how often it gets this low. If it still has fish that tells us this may be the first time it has gotten this low.
You can dig some holes with a shovel or hand post hole diggers and get a better idea what is down below the surface. Do this in front and back. Keep a good eye on that spring. See how much more water runs out if the ponds ever gets full.

Otto, it is good to hear from you. It appears you’re a legend when it comes to ponds. I almost called you after it was suggested (twice) to contact you. I’ve been anxious for some professional advice.
A brief update before I start with the answers to your questions. I called my local conservation office and talked with the district’s conservationist. She asked some of the same questions. She was also going to look up the soil type and hydrology study to see if one or both may be the problem. She told me that she would try to get up here before the end of April to do a site survey but I’m not holding my breath.
1. I’m realistic and don’t expect the pond to stay completely full. Especially with the drought conditions that we are currently experiencing in central Oklahoma. My concern is with the seepage. Even when the drought is over I think it will be hard to maintain a healthy level because the rate out (seepage & evaporation) will far exceed the rate in (rain).
2. As mentioned before, I believe the pond was built during the development of the subdivision back in 1994. One neighbor indicated they tried to have it dug out deeper several years ago. Apparently it didn’t go well as the backhoe hired for the job kept getting stuck and ended up accomplishing very little. What you may have noticed in the picture was the result of me playing around with my subcompact tractor’s front loader. I needed a little dirt for a section of my yard and I took it from the pond when it was even drier. That is the reason for the two bodies of water.
3. I would guess the soil is a mix of clay and sand but will have to wait for the conservationist’s visit for a definite answer. From the USDA’s web soil survey it is Nash-Lucien. Nash- Parent material: Loamy residuum weathered from calcareous sandstone, Lucien-Parent material: Loamy residuum weathered from sandstone and shale. Not really sure what all that means.
4. Your right, the pictures don’t give you much perspective. The dry portion of the pond is fairly flat and lies between 7-8’ below the top of the dam. I’d guess the remaining water level in only 2-3’ deep for a total pond depth of 9-11’. The back side of the dam height varies between 20-30’. The 30’ point is to the bottom of a ravine and is where the spring is located.
5. There are two other healthy ponds just downstream of our pond. We set about half way down a 5% slope, 1 mile long grade. The other ponds set about a half mile down and toward the bottom of the grade (see photo). The other ponds are in excellent condition and completely full. Probably due to the fact they are getting our pond’s water. There are also several other healthy ponds in the neighborhood.
6. According to the neighbors the pond has been complete dry once before (a few years back during a prolonged drought). Of course all the fish died off but my neighbors released some fish caught from the other ponds when the water level returned. I assume these were the same fish and off springs of the ones that recently died.
7. I’ll try your suggestion with the holes. Unfortunately I’ll have to wait till the water level comes up some as I’ll be unable to dig deep enough to the current water level to check for seepage.

I’ve been trying to catch my neighbors outside to discuss the pond but I keep missing them. I wanted to get more history on the pond and to see if anyone would be interested in taking steps to get it fixed. If and when I catch them and get more information I’ll post an update.
Otto, appreciate your response and any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

call me and talk---I am not trying to get a job--only save time --I cannot type and hardly read but i can talk for ever

I'll try to give you a call in the near future.

Quick update: I have talked to two of my three neighbors and they seem very interested in sharing the cost to repair the pond. I placed a few calls to dirt movers. I’m hoping to get them out soon for estimates. I also received a quote for a truck load of sodium bentonite. Now I’m just waiting for the Conservation Officer's visit next month to get her take on the pond. Then I’ll put a plan together to proceed.
Thanks again Mike for all your advice.

Here is a quick update on my pond situation. We’re still under a drought here in central Oklahoma. That combined with the leak has resulted in almost no water remaining in the pond. That did add creditability to my pond problems when the conservation officers arrived this week. They reaffirmed most of my suspicions and the required fixes. Their suggestions were to remove the 2-3 ft of silt and continue digging to a total depth of about 9 ft, followed up with mixing of about 2 lbs/sq ft of sodium bentonite into the soil. They thought it would take about two full days to do the required dirt work at a rate of $125/hr. The bentonite would cost around $6000. I’m guessing with some additional miscellaneous expense it would run around $10000.
Although I may have caught a break with the dirt work as I found someone just a mile up the road requiring fill dirt. He came out this afternoon to take a look. He said he would provide a large 4x4 tractor/front loader and a tandem axial dump truck. I would just have to cover the cost of the fuel and hourly wage for his one hired hand. I’m going to give that a try for a couple of days and see what progress we make. He did think the ground may be too soft in the middle and that I might have to rent an excavator to finish that area. I do have some reservations but figure I can’t do much harm, it won’t cost much and it may just work. I’ll post again with updates and if I have any regrets.

And the work begins. The gentleman needing fill dirt and his worker started on the pond a couple of days ago. Things got off to a bad start as they got their tractor stuck within the first few minutes. Fortunately it was easily pulled out and they were able to find firmer ground to start on. They quickly cleared the dirt and silt from that area and began working outwards. They eventually cleared a large area on a sand stone shelf in one corner of the pond. They then brought out a large loader to speed things up. That worked well for a while but they eventually ran out of firm ground on that side of the pond. They then repositioned to the other side and have started piling up dirt there. Piling up dirt is all they can do now as their dump truck broke on the second day after moving only 10 loads. Some drive shaft or differential issue which I hope they are able to fix quickly.
We have only been able to go down a couple of feet around the perimeter. The sand stone and shale shelf keeps us from going any deeper. I was surprised that we didn’t have to dig out more silt/muck there. The middle is a different story though. Off the firm ground of the stone there is a substantial drop off into the muck, about 4-5 ft. The loader had to be pulled out a couple times already after getting off the firm ground. The tractor seems to do a better job but it too has gotten stuck. It may be necessary to rent a track hoe to clean out that section.
All the activity has attracted a lot of interest from our neighbors in this otherwise quiet neighborhood. The neighbors with whom I share the pond with are excited with the prospects of fixing the pond. I can’t read minds but I suspect a few of my other neighbors are thinking “why is he wasting his time and money on that old pond?”. I can’t blame them as I have had the same thought. As I look out at several large piles of dirt and all the work that still needs to be done I have asked myself “what was I thinking”. But I’m in too deep now and will have to follow thru until the pond is fixed.
I still have some reservations about not going with professional pond builders. I still believe (hope) that I will save a lot of money in the long run. But the $20/hr for his worker and the cost of diesel is quickly adding up. I owe them about $300 in labor and I’m guessing about $300 or so in fuel cost thus far. Doesn’t seem too bad but we are less than half way done removing the dirt. That doesn’t include the time and money to load up the dump truck to remove the dirt. A cost that I wouldn’t have had to pay if I had hired a professional builder as they would have just pushed the dirt over the dam. I’ll have to wait and see how it all comes out to see if I would do it differently the next time.
Pictures below:

My hope is that with the limestone that you found and not seeing any compaction equipment is that the pond will hold water after you have finished all the work on it.

The stone shelf on the perimeter has given me some concerns. For now, we're just getting the dirt out. The plan then is to shape the pond and pull some clay back over the limestone/sandstone. Followed up by putting 1-2 lbs of bentonite per sq ft down then mixed and rolled in. I'm hoping that will work. If anyone else has a better suggestion, please post.

I don't know what would be better, putting the bentonite down first and mixing it in, then the clay, packing it down in 6" lifts, or putting the clay down first, packing it down in 6" lefts then incorporating the bentonite/soil mix in the rest of the pond, continuing it into the clay.

In any case, make sure the clay has sufficient moisture so it packs down well. In everything that I've read, the suggestions were to use a sheepsfoot roller and work the layers of clay enough so the roller "walks out" of each layer before adding another 6" lift. I think I heard Mike Otto say that each 6" clay lift will compact down to 50%-75% of the origional thickness by the time it's properly compacted. You want to "knit" the individual lifts together so it is one solid layer, not layers upon layers.

esshup: I have a few questions for you but I'll hold off till we are ready to shape and seal the pond. In the meantime.....

Pond cleanout update #2: One and a half weeks later and not much has changed. It rained Easter Sunday about 2 inches. Although this area badly needed the rain it has cost us about a week in the clean out. As you can see from the photo the pond started to fill back in. I purchased a small gas powered water pump to pump it back down. It took till Friday for everything to dry out enough to start working again. Unfortunately when I called Friday morning to ask my dirt movers when they would be back out they said their truck wasn’t fixed yet. It wasn’t a simple U-joint fix after all. They needed to replace one of the differentials. They didn’t think they would be back out till Monday.
I’m still undecided whether this was the best route to take. I’m almost to the point where I think I may have been better off with a professional pond person. But there is one benefit to having a “good old boy” do the work. On day one he instructed me how to operate all his equipment. He has since allowed me to drive and use his equipment. I have always loved big construction/farm equipment. It has been a real treat working his tractor and loader.

Picture Info and Story Below (not relevant to pond cleanout discussion):
Not to waste a nice weekend I decided to rent a small excavator to see what work I could do. I knew going into it I wouldn’t be able to do much with a small excavator but justified it as a “training” opportunity for when we rent the big one. I played around on the edge of the hard surface but grew more adventurous as time went on. Being a small excavator I thought I might be able to work the muck from above (novice mistake). I had no problem driving across it but when I stopped and worked a couple of bucket loads I got myself stuck up to the tops of the tracks. I thought I’d easily pull myself out with the boom and bucket using a chain attached to the tractor setting up on some firm ground. It wasn’t that easy. The blade and bottom of the excavator was buried in muck and it wouldn’t budge. I ended up throwing about every scrap piece of wood I had under the tracks. The quick sand like muck ate every board I threw under there. But it was enough to make some forward movement. Unfortunately I ended up pulling myself right up to the edge of where I had been digging out on the perimeter. I repositioned the tractor to help pull me away from the edge but on the last pull I slide off the edge. Panic set in as I realized I was about ready to lay my rental excavator on its side. Safety wasn’t my only concern as I started to think about the cost associated with fixing and pulling out the excavator. My $200 training weekend was about to get a lot more expensive. I positioned the loader and attached a chain to the excavator’s blade in the hopes of stabilizing the situation (picture). Unfortunately when I went to lift up it seemed like it made the situation worse and the excavator only tilted more. About that time my dirt movers showed up out of the blue to get their tractor to help with their dump truck work. He told me he was laughing as he pulled up as he had just recently dealt with a full size similar situation. After getting several more lengths of chains he repositioned the loader to the other side of the pond. We got some tension on the chains and were able to release the boom from the tractor. We then repositioned the boom to the hard rock surface. I finally was able to breathe again as I knew the excavator wouldn’t roll over. We then pulled with the loader and out it came. My wife thought for sure I’d be done after all that but I couldn’t see wasting the 6 plus hours I had left on the clock. I continued my “training” all the way to sunset, this time on a hard surface. Sometimes you have to learn the hard way and I won’t make that mistake again. Although I’ve been getting things stuck since I was a youth. My dad, more than once, has had to pull me out. He then would affectionately refer to me as his “educated idiot”. He was probably looking down at me today having a good laugh. Here’s to you dad.

Yep, that's the time to seek professional help.

You know, it's amazing how much suction force your butt cheeks have! I found a septic tank on my place that nobody knew was there by driving a loaded backhoe over the lid. It took some work, but I avoided tipping it over on the stable.

High pucker factor!

Hey Ted, how goes the battle?

Glad you asked but unfortunately there is not too much to report. There hasn’t been any digging since my last update. I’ve been waiting for my dirt movers to haul off the dirt they dug up from a month ago. The work of hauling off the dirt has been somewhat sporadic. I’ve discovered that my dirt movers don’t keep a normal schedule. They won’t work for a couple of days but then will show up and work one day before it rains. Then it’s two or three days or a weekend waiting for things to dry out before they come back to work. It has been frustrating but I guess you get what you pay for.
Despite the delays and sporadic work I am happy to report that they have hauled off about 100 plus truckloads of dirt (1000 cu yds). Just a small pile left which should be gone by tomorrow. With the piled up dirt almost gone I have went ahead and scheduled the excavator. It will be here next week. The excavator has a 34’ reach and should be able to get all but a thin strip from the middle. What is left should just collapse into the dugout area with the next rain. I’ll pile what I take out onto the wings of the pond which will eventually be pushed/hauled over the back side of the dam.
I intend to post pictures and provide an update after the excavator work is completed.

Rain delay. We had a heavy rain a few weeks ago (just before I was going to rent the excavator) that completely filled the pond up. I had, twice before, pumped the pond out after a light rain. I considered pumping the full pond out to finish up but decided it would take too long and be too much work. Plus I wanted to see how it would hold water. So far I would say it is leaking at about the same rate as before. That is more or less what I expected since we didn’t really work on repairing the leak. The work did result in doubling the volume of water held in the pond which will hopefully get us through any prolonged dry spells. And if it does dry up again it will give me an opportunity to finish the work. I’ll update later.