Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Genetics in bass

So today i may have stumbled apon a major clue in why my bass dont seem to gain weight and grow like they should. I started managing my pond fro trophy bass back in 2007. Its a 6 acre pond about 20 ft deep that offers a little bit of everything. It was a bass over populated pond when I started back in 07. On a given day you could catch 20 or 30 bass, always about 12" long. So after Greg shocked the pond his recomendation was to remove alot of those size bass. Ive taken out around 700 of them since 2007 and added Threadfin shad, Crawfish and tons of bluegill. Two feeders run most of the year feeding Aquamax 500 and the bluegill have done great on it. So with all this food you would expect see some big improvement in the bass. Relative weights were 79% in 2007 and in 2010 were around 82%. Not the result i was hoping for after 3 years of intense management. Well now you can fish all day and only catch a few bass so I know the numbers are down alot from back then. I have tagged and released around 40 bass in the pond. Most of the time if you catch one that is 14" and tag it, you can catch it again a year later and its about 15" So some growth but nothing impressive. Last summer I added 10 HSB in the pond. They were about a pound each when they went in. Today they are up to 3 lbs so I wondered why they were able to grow so easy and decided its because they eat alot of aquamax. Which brings me to my discovery! Last year when baitcasting for bluegill at my dads pond which has some awesome bass in it. I caught a small 10 inch bass and just put him in the hauling tank. When I got back to my pond and was releasing the bluegill i decided to tag him and let him go in my pond. So number 154 was tagged and added on 4-21-10. So Tuesday I had a amazing day fishing, I caught 10 bass. 3 HSB and 7 Largemouths. 2 were tagged fish. One was a native fish that hadnt grown any since he was tagged in 2009 and the other was 154. He was 17" long and weighed just shy of 3 lbs. Now how was this fish able to triple his weight in a little under a year when native bass dont grow much. Could there really be that much difference in the gentics of my dads bass compared to the mine. Really has me stratching my head but I thought I would share it with yall. Sorry for the book, I just wanted to give yall a little backround into what has been going on.

Hmm, I'm sorry to hear that you're having such growth problems.

I've heard people talk about supplemental bass stocking for genetics. Have you thought about getting a dozen or so 12" Florida LMB, tagging with easily recognizable tags so that you don't end up harvesting them, and planting in the fall? Maybe you'd also want to fish out some of the native LMB in there that are not showing much growth.

I know that size-based harvest on fish can cause genetic shifts in population surprisingly quickly (http://departments.oxy.edu/biology/gnorth/fishsizeevolution.pdf). It might be possible that your bass have been subjected to similar pressure due to overcrowding for long enough that the population is genetically geared away from fast growth.

I think it is possible for smaller fish to be due to genetics. In a lot of southern brook trout streams you rarely catch a fish over 6-7 inches. Part of it is dueto the small streams they live in but I think part of it is also that over time those are the size of fish best adapted to the streams, so they just don't have the genetics to get much bigger. Some of the same streams have had brown trout introduced and they can grow to pretty large sizes, 20 inches+. Of course, some of that is due to them eating the small brookies but I think that genetically they're able to grow to a larger size. I'm sure the same could happen in ponds, the question is, will introducing new genetics lead to larger fish or will you end up back where you started? I would say with your management you would probably get good results.

I would contact Greg for some advice and some new bass to improve the genetics. Maybe focus on growing more HSB? Can you afford feeding more HSB? The do eat a lot of high protein pellets which can get expensive. Another possibility is maybe a lot of the older larger bass are getting hooksmart and are avoiding lures or anything that looks or behaves like a lure?

I know there are bigger ones in the pond. Greg shocks it every spring and We have shocked up a few that were decent. I caught one 3 years ago that was 8 lbs and have seen that same fish or one just like it on bed every spring. I already told Greg to see if he could get me a few feed trained bass that are 12" or so.
I only stocked 10 HSB because i was worried that once they got up to 7 or 8 lbs they would go through way to much food and also even though they are fun to catch its almost disappointing when you fight a fish all the way to the boat hoping its a largemouth and then its a HSB.
I know we have had alot of talks on here about genetics in bass and that it doesnt play a big role. It just seems like I should be seeing alot better results after 3 years then i am. I could have just drained it and started over and would be alot further along.

How were the 7 LMB you caught ? Size and condition?.

I have nothing to add to this thread other than to say that I am very curious about where it goes. I have noticed that on average there are 163.8 views for every 1 post on any given thread! Not to put any performance anxiety on anyone but imagine if every single time you did anything( took a shower or caught a fish or went to BPS or celebrated Valentines Day with your spouse:) etc) that 163.8 aliens were looking over your shoulder analyzing EVERY move step by step and word by word!!

About half of what I catch is poor looking and the other half is good. I went yesterday and caught about 10 small bass just sight fishing for them. Almost all of them looked bad. Theres plenty of 3" bluegill so you would think that the 12" bass would be in pretty good shape.

You can help the genetics yourself in the pond by removing all the poor looking LMB that you catch. It's not a magic bullet, but it will help your pond in 2 ways. 1) removing inferior fish 2) freeing up forage for the better producing fish.

You hear about the "it takes 10# of forage to put 1 lb on a LMB" but I don't know how much forage the underachievers are consuming.

Ive been doing that for 3 years now. I take out all the bass i catch under 12" and any other bass that have really low relative weights. I caught a few today and did the a average realative weight of about 79%. Thats as bad as it was 3 years ago. Could they be down on there weight because we are just coming out of winter?

Time of year is key to RW data. Espically if the data size/sample size is small. It can make an easy 10% difference. Look at your records and see how that fits in.

Relative weights can change significantly throughout the different seasons, but from experiences, this is the time of year when the bass will be at their chunkiest. They are trying to put on all the weight they can before they start spawning...because once they start spawning, laying eggs and protecting the nest is about all that is on their minds...not feeding. Here are a couple of different bass that my friend and i caught back in late January...very fat!

Fat is an understatement.

Your situation reminds me a lot of one lake that I help manage over in South Carolina. When we first started a few years ago, the lake had already been bass crowded for quite a few years. The past few years, we have been removing bass like crazy and put a serious dent in their numbers...also did a bunch of supplemental forage stocking.

Over the past couple of years, we have noticed the "textbook" shift in forage numbers, so we think we finally got the bass numbers down close to where they need to be. BUT, we still have not gotten the growth response that we were anticipating. We firmly believe that the lake was so bass crowded for so long that the "growth gene", so to speak, got too watered down.

We are going to try to remove even more bass and stock some advanced (15"+) F1 largemouths from a reputable source, and stock a lot more forage of various species. We use F1s almost exclusively in all of our new pond stockings, and have seen tremendous growth on them in the right environments. Hopefully these guys are going to give us the growth we are looking for, and will also help boost up the gene pool a bit.

Thanks for your reply AufisheriesAlum. I honestly was at the point last week that i was think of just draining and starting over. The only thing that changed my mind is that there a a few nicer 4 and 5 lbs bass that are in the shallows getting ready to spawn and i hate to start all the way over after all the bluegill,Threadfins and crawfish that i have pourned into it. I found the guy thta built the pond yesterday and now know it was built in 1974 and stocked the same year. Like you i just believe that the gene pool is watered down and needs a boost. Walking around the pond yesterday i got a better grasp on what i have. There are literally thousands of 3-5" bluegills swimming around the brush piles. So there must have been a good spawn last year. Seeing a number of larger bass up in the end of the pond that has lots of thick bushes really gives me some hope. I might go ahead and just slam the pond with forage this year and see what happenes. The threadfins keep dying every year when it gets cold so what is everyones thoughts on gizzard shad? Do i really have anything to lose at this point? I was thinking of just ordering some golden shinners, Crawfish and some more threadfins or gizzard shad. It will cost a little bit but dang im tired of looking at skinney fish. The bluegill and HSB are the only thing that has a belly on them. Thats only cause they love aquamax. Oh another thing i just thought of that ticked me off. The guy that owns the pond that feeds mine had his pond built at the same time mine was and he stocked both my pond and his with the same bass. He does absoulutly nothing to his but he caught a 11 lbs largemoth the other day in his pond. I dont even think i have anything in the double digits in mine. Id be doing good to catch a 6 or 7 lbs bass in mine.

JS you need to make a good survey of your fish populations. LMB crowded and lots of 3-5 inch BG do not fit together. You may be in better shape than you think. If you have some big LMB and lot of BG I would not consider starting over. Post all your fish results here - every observation. We can go from there. The genetic situation AU described (which I agree with and have seen) does not fit what you described - some big LMB and to many 12 inch LMB (there are still LMB with big genetics) and lots of 3-5 inch BG - something is off in the data.

Ewest, Greg comes out every spring and shocks the pond. We have shocked up a few nice bass but theres always those skinney 10-12 inchers. It is kind of strange that there is so many of those 3-5" Bluegill but ive been walking around the pond and looking today trying to get a good estimate on whats there. There are tons in that size bracket which is what those 12" bass should be eating. I really feel that I have gotten the bass population down pretty low. From what I saw this afternoon there is a pretty good size group of 14-17" bass that were up shallow getting ready to spawn. I will know more in the next few weeks as i catch more and get some more data.

Personally, I'd hold off on the Gizzards. I don't think your LMB population and size won't be able to utilize them and they might become a problem in your pond. I'd stick to yanking out the skinny LMB.

What's Greg's take on it so far?

Greg said that it doesnt make any sence to him either, With the number of bass removed and forage add he thinks I should be seeing much better results by now.

Ok im gonna give yall the short version of my catch records from the last 3 years, It actually takes up 10 pages because im very detailed when i keep records.
So the pond came into my ownership in late 2007 and I started management in January of 2008. Its about 6 acres if I didnt already mention that.
2008 Removed 160 12" bass and Added 1000 4-5" bluegill and 5000 threadfin shad.
2009 Removed 100 12" bass and Added 1000 4-5" Bluegill
2010 Removed 150 12" bass and Adeed 1000 4-5" Bluegill and 150 lbs of Crawfish. I also added 10 HSB last summer just to have something different to fish for.
Which brings me to today. I always knew there was a few crappie in the pond. I usually catch a couple every year and they were always 1 to 2 lbs. So I figured the bass were keeping them in check. Well today I sat in one spot and caught 30. They were all about 9-12" long. So apparently one year they had a really good spawn. Either 2009 or 2010 im guessing. Im gonna try to catch as many as I can this week and next to hopefully thin down there numbers before they spawn. I always remove every one I catch.

We are slammed about to head again but wanted to get yall some info. Quickly Ewest Jes is not your typical pond owner. He has done about everything we have asked. Rarely do I scratch my head but we have on his pond.

Here is some info to debate. We have introducded pure genetics in many ponds. Also most clients who have done half as good a job as Jes have improved their bass. My take is pure genetics is also a slower fix thus the reason I told Jes to drain and lets start over. I know what we can do from scratch and it is pretty amazing to me. If nto all abotu pulling ever stinkin' non growign bass out and getting him some F1's or Floridas.

Well it will not let me cut and paste our table but in 2009
Population of 3-5 and 5-7 bluegill very good. Still too many 10-12 inch bass. BLuegill improved after stocking and still too many bass Wr 80%. Remember also Jes the big catfish were in there. Last year about the same tag data reveleaed slow growth as well. Jes if you want flip Ewest your report Love to see what he has to say.

Thanks Greg. I will try to see if I can send that to him.

Yes - will be glad to look and reply. Greg in my experience it takes longer to turn a pond around that to start over. I would have thought you would have seen results with what you have done. Those are major changes to the population dynamics and it may just need a little time to see the results. For now keep removing small LMB and crappie. Some new LMB genes will not hurt for sure. Greg could take out a bunch with the shock boat. We have done that with good success but it still took 2 years to see the results.