Hello everyone, I've been lurking here for a while but this is my first post. Great site, I've read a lot of interesting things here! In January I moved into a rental house that has a decent sized pond on the property. It is a flood control dam that was built in the 50's to protect a few towns downstream from flooding. There is no steady source of water flowing into it, only runoff, so water levels fluctuate. Below are pics of the lake almost dry, full, and close to where it is now. According to the property owner, the lake has only gone dry two times although it isn't unusual for it to get low in late summer/fall and hold their until spring. The first time I saw the lake was November and it's held at the same level over the last few months, about where the current picture is. Just a guestimate on my part, but from what he said the lake has a max depth of 12', so I'm guessing that it's at about 6' or so right now, and when full I was told it covers 7 acres. As you can see from the pics the water is pretty clear, he says it's pretty much always like that and if it rains enough to muddy it up it's clear again in a few days. I haven't fished this yet so I have no idea what's in there, if anything. The owner says that it has had bass, bluegill, perch, crappie, and channel catfish stocked in it as well as some suckers from a local river. However, that was before it went dry and he said he thinks the only thing left are bass, although I'm not sure why that's his opinion. Based on the picture of the lake when dry, I'd be surprised if there is anything left in there as it hasn't been stocked since then. The lake has produced at least two decent sized bass in the 5 lb class that I've seen pictures and one of which was mounted in the house I'm in before I moved in but I'm not 100% sure when they were caught, I think the mounted one had a date of some time in the early 90's but that may be inaccurate. I'd like to help improve any fish populations that exist now and/or establish new ones. With a lake that can fluctuate like this one, with the potential to dry up, is there a point in trying to establish a permanent fish population or would it be better to establish a stocking dependant fishery such as catfish for the summer and trout for the winter? With a self sustaining population the first problem I can think of would be lack of cover for prey species. As you can see from the dry picture, there's not really anything in the way of cover other than a some random rocks which I can't see being a big help. There is a pretty good layer of rock covering the base of the dam but I don't think it'd be beneficial to anything but fry. I think that this problem could lead to a large population of stunted bass and not much else and may be why there are only bass in there now, if that is truly the case. My personal preference would be to add some heavy cover into the shallow end and maybe the far corner of the dam, opposite of the slide but I'm not sure if the property owner would go for that or if he'd prefer to keep the lake clean, I'm thinking the latter is probably more likely to be the case. Also, I'm not sure what the forage base for the prey fish would be. Other than some algae there is pretty much no plant life so I'm not sure if there is much in the way of bugs and what not for bluegill or whatever to eat. If going the stocking route this could be a problem as well and may lead to having to have a feed based population. One idea that has crossed my mind is trying to develop the fishery into one based on large bluegill or another sunfish with a very small number of bass, maybe 10-15 total. If this is the route taken, my plan would be to introduce adult bluegill this spring followed by small bass in the late summer/early fall. I would think that this would only be viable if there are no bass currently in the lake though. Would channel catfish be a viable alternative to bass? If the stocking to sustain option is taken, what kind of numbers would be needed to have an enjoyable fishery? The main people fishing would be me, my 6 year old daughter, and maybe a couple of relatives so there probably wouldn't be much pressure. Would maybe 250 channel catfish either every year or every other year and roughly the same number of trout every fall be sufficient? The state fisheries department suggests stocking 100 trout/acre but I don't really have a need to harvest that many trout so would I realy need to stock that many to have decent fishing? Any opinions or thoughts would be appreciated, sorry if this was long winded, I didn't think it'd end up that way when I started
Definitely a challenging dilemma... A BOW that goes from 7 acres to a puddle.
Not sure there is a solution to it though as you are working with a lot of limitations. You can certainly stock the pond, but in doing so realize what ever money you put into it could dry up. What seems to trigger the pond drying up so badly?
I believe it's just related to a lack of rain. I knew a few years back that we had a series of summers with little to no rain so I looked up what the drought status was for that time in 2009 and found this:
Apparently a lot of the rivers and streams around the state were quite low around the time this pic of the lake was taken. There is a picture dated April 2009 where the lake has significantly more water in it, not to half full but getting there.
The fluctuation is one reason I was thinking of a fishery sustained by a stocking program. I would be a lot more frustrated with a dry spell hitting and destroying a fishery that'd been growing for two or three years as opposed to one with, say, channel catfish that were going to be fished out eventually anyway. I don't think losing water over winter would be an issue so if there was water in late October or November then I could put some trout in, if it'd been a dry year they'd be skipped or added when the level came up some. They wouldn't make it past June anyway so if the lake dried up late summer they'd already be gone. Has anyone ever done a bullhead based fishery? They could just burrow into the mud until the lake filled back up
A stocking regime based sole on put and take is IMO the most realistic. Consider stocking the largest CC you can obtain. Generally you can find 12" fish rather easily and not that expensive. You could stock a hundred or so every spring or when most readily available. In the fall, probably early to mid Oct, you can stock trout. If you feed you can expect good growth rates on your CC. Fishing for the trout should be good through the winter. If the pond dries up and causes fish kill, you haven't lost a long term fishery as mentioned. I would say HSB could be an excellent option as well however they are illegal to stock in VA.
Hybrid striped bass had crossed my mind as an option because of the open water nature of the lake, but I was unaware that they were illegal in VA. Would golden shiners be a better option as a forage fish in a lake lacking structure than bluegill? I'm pretty sure that they'd be easier for trout to eat, I've never heard of trout eating bluegill although I'm sure it happens to some extent.
According to the owner it has dried up two times, I think he's owned it for 20-30 years. I've read about RAS's on here and that's something I'd really like to try to grow out a few larger specimens. I suppose I could use it to hold some young of the year fish if the lake looked like it was going to dry out, but I'm not sure if I'd have the capacity to hold enough to make a difference or not.
If I was in your shoes, I'd stock HBG and CC and pellet feed them. If you think you are able to catch a few local bass from an area pond that aren't diseased and you are certain you can ID the sex, toss in a dozen male bass as well. Catching male bass is easy during the spawn if you can sight fish for them. Even just one bass of either sex would be fine. Better to only have one bass than make a mistake and mix sexes and then your pond's dynamics would change greatly...
This combination is high turn over. So losing the fishery isn't going to set you back much. It'll produce many 1/2 to 1 pound sunfish which the kids will enjoy catching. The small number of bass and your stocked CC will limit or completely control successful reproduction of the HBG which is wanted. The CC will be an added bonus of the occasional larger fish up to 10+ pounds but most will be in the 1-3 pound range. The few LMB in the pond will not be a focus of fishing but rather simply to help the CC control any HBG reproduction.
Annual stocking of 300-400 HBG and 100 CC will not be overly expensive but will produce a quality fish if pellet feeding is done. If the pond does go dry, you're not going to be set back 5 or 10 years in your fishery. At most you'll be set back a couple years or so and you won't have lost much. Most HBG live about 3 or 4 years tops and CC will mostly be caught and put in hot oil in that same time period.
Thank y'all for the replies. I hadn't thought about hbg before due mostly to reading a lot about them producing inferior offspring. Do you think they'd be superior to regular bg in this situation due to the fact they don't produce nearly as many offspring? I was thinking that the fact that there is pretty much no structure in this pond that there would be little to no chance for stunting to occur and that basically the bluegill reproduction would be a way to feed any catfish or bass in the lake. Do you think the risk of having a boom of small sunfish is too high to go this route?
As far as adding bass, I've read that smallmouth aren't as good at keeping sunfish populations in check as largemouth but also that they don't reproduce as well without the proper habitat. Would they be an option here or is that not a good idea?
As far as additional forage, would it be worth my money to add golden shiners or fathead minnows? The going rate seems to be about $10/pound. If I stock 100 channel catfish in the 10 inch range in the next month or so and say 250 trout in the 12 inch range in the fall, how many minnows would I have to add? With feed going for $20 for a 50 pound bag of catfish feed that would be more economical going pound vs pound. I'll have to do some more research on feeding as I'm not going to want to get into that if it's going to cost me in the 100s of dollars a month.
Also, this may be a stupid question, but from what I read you're supposed to feed your fish at the same spot each time. Does this mean all the fish I have are just going to end up congregated at one spot on the pond all of the time?
Stick with LMB, they are not in the pond for angling but as a control measure for any HBG reproduction that occurs to assist the CC in controlling it.
HBG are fast growers early on. Pure BG will outgrow them in the long run, but with the pond conditions you have, the long run may never occur. The idea is, HBG reach max size in 2 or 3 years, as opposed to BG which take several. With regular BG, you will need a reproducing population of bass and then all you have is a typical LMB/BG pond. You can do this, but again if the pond goes down you're starting all over again... Plus, this pond seems to fluctuate widely in size and hence biomass carrying capacity. This is easy to handle with a put and take fishery such as HBG/CC, not so easy to manage with a typical LMB/BG fishery.
Ok, that makes sense. I will go ahead and start working on finding a source for the fish you suggested to be stocked at the suggested rate. The only "close" warm water hatcheries I've found are Zetts and Perry's Minnow Farm. Zetts' online cataloge is a few years old and Perrys doesn't have much info, neither seem to carry hbg from what I've seen on their websites. I have seen ads in the paper for a truck that comes to the Tractor Supply and one that also comes to the local Farm Bureau, I'm not sure how that works though or what size fish they carry. Carolina Fish Hatchery has hybrids and channel catfish, I sent them an email about their truck route and what size they carry with them. On their website they have HBG listed at $.80 for 4-6" and $1.50 for 6+ and 8-10" CC for $.90, that's the largest size they have listed. Do you have any recommendations as far as who to get the fish from?
Any will work, just make sure you don't accidentally have bullheads mixed in with your CC or another unwanted species... So you may have to hand sort your fish as you place them in the pond.
Well it's warmed up considerably here the past few days so I decided to take a walk around the pond to see if there were perhaps any fish in the shallows, not expecting to see much because it's also pretty windy. Walked one shoreline and didn't see any so I went out on the spillway and saw three sunfish dart away when they saw me. They weren't huge, probably about as long as a soda can but they looked pretty chunky so I walked back up to my house to get a rod and see if I could catch one. The only thing I had that I thought might work were some trout magnets (little jigs) so I grabbed those. Made a few casts to the area where I'd seen them but didn't have any luck so I tossed in right next to the spillway and got a hit. Turned out to be a 7-8 inch bass that I lost next to the shore while trying to get my phone to take a pic. Wasn't real fat but didn't look really skinny, either. Another cast to the same spot led to another hit and I landed this guy:
A few more casts didn't land anything so I switched over to a small Panther Martin and moved down the shore a little and missed a hit then hooked another bass which threw the hook by the shore. A couple more casts and I landed this one which was about the same size as the second one I lost, maybe a little bigger:
All of these fish came out of the deepest part of the pond which also has the only major structure in the lake, I'm assuming that's where they've been over the winter. I would say the first (and smallest) one I hooked was proportionately the fattest of the four, the two I landed look to be on the skinny side to me, which I think would be normal for them in late winter. So I guess for now this puts a hold at least on adding the hybrid bluegill until the ponds fish population can be better assessed. I think I'll buy some worms and try again tomorrow to see if I can't land a couple of the sunfish. Any thoughts on the bass from these pics or is a larger sample needed?
Sounds like you have an established population that at least partly survived the extreme low water drought conditions of your pond. Sounds like you're going to be having a classic LMB/BG fishery unless you poison the fish.
No point in poisoning them and starting over in my opinion, I'll just have to do some more fishing (oh the horor!) and get a feel for the numbers and sizes in there. I'm thinking that with the small amount of water in March 2009 which wouldve been coming out of winter that maybe only some of the smallest fish from the previous years spawn may have survived, which would make these fish almost 3 years old. Does that seem right based on their size? Also, is it it still ok to proceed with stocking trout?
Remember that trout are fusiform and don't have spiny fins-- very easy for LMB to eat. If you stock trout, you're going to want to not stock any small ones. LMB can eat surprisingly large trout relative to their body size. I'd say keep it 11" and above, you probably have at least some bass around 15-16". No sense stocking expensive fish food.
Well, I had planned on stocking about 50 each between 8-9 inches and 9-10 inches and 100 that are over 10 inches. The plan will be to catch them out by mid-May anyway so if the bass end up eating some of the small ones I'm ok with that. At 1.00 apiece for the 8-9 inch size I think they're more cost effective than fathead minnows would be at $10/pound, which seems to be the going rate plusI'd have to drive further for them or pay to have them shipped. Also, only the larger bass would be fattening up on them. In fact now I'm thinking I should get some smaller ones at 40-50 cents each just for the bass to eat once it warms up a little...hmmmm...:)
Good point, if you can get them at $1 apiece, that's actually not bad even if the LMB eat some. About $4/pound. Not really competitive with Aquamax, but well below the prices of FHM or GSH.
Come to think of it, stocking two very different size groups could give you a good idea of how much of an issue LMB predation will be. If you stock say 100 at 8" and 100 at 12", but 80% of the RBT you catch are 12", you know that it's an issue.
If I was trying to grow trophy LMB, I'd think about stocking 5-6" RBT about a month before temperatures got too high in the pond for them. Could probably get them for a song.
When considering the trout as a potential fish food 8"-14" Trout will be a better forage large fish, yet FH or GSH will be better forage for more, smaller predators AND reproduce considerably more pounds than stocked. (even in a mature pond)
Those are both good points. I was planning on keeping track of the length of fish to see what kind of growth I get over 2-3 months. I know since I'm stocking various sizes it'll be inexact but if I end up with more fish in one size class than what was stocked, I'll know they're growing some. Also, I had considered that the trout couldn't be compared directly to fhm because they won't reproduce but I wouldn't think fhm being introduced to a pond with adult fish would have a large chance of getting established anyway so at least the big fish will be getting fed. Why are 8-14" fish better as forage? Just because of body mass? I can't imagine there being a bass in the lake big enough to eat a 14" trout but I suppose it is possible.
Shiners being overstocked would have a good chance of survival and establishment IF there is good sized (10-20% of surface acres)vegetation cover in some shallow (<2' deep) areas. Fatheads will reproduce heavily, but with small bass, they will be wiped out after a year or two even if stocked heavily...larger fish won't target them as much if there is other, larger forage available. (Too much energy expended for the calories gained)
A 20" bass would swallow a 14" trout...or anyhting it can get all the way into it's mouth...trout are fairly small in diameter and have no spiny bones as mentioned earlier (fusiform).
I think you guys are right about LMB being able to eat larger trout than we think. I stocked 100 RBT, that were right around 1# each. I only harvested 55, and saw 6 floaters when the water got too warm. No mink or otters, and I didn't see an osprey around the pond. I don't think I had anybody fishing the pond without me knowing about it either, although it could have happened.
I think I have LMB in the pond that are larger than 20".
It is pretty amazing that a bass could swallow a trout that is over half the length of the bass. Does anyone know how long it would take a bass to digest a 10" trout? Just curious as to how many large bass you'd need to make a big dent in a population of trout.
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