Pond Boss Forums INTRO New Forum Member Introduction aquatic vegetation

here are some good photos of Coontail, you have to look close but you can see the details that Bill Cody points out, you can also see the spike like structures on the outside of the leaves, I believe that's where is gets the common name Hornwort.

Nice photos Casey!
I was in Angleton today, and regret my visit to the local Taco Bell.

Hey I seem to be the new guy here but can anybody tell me the difference between Eurasian mifoil and Northern milfoil? I was talking with a lady at our GFP and she said that they only knew of two lakes in SD where Eurasian milfoil exist. She did say Northern milfoil was common. I havent been able to find much out about Northern milfoil and as someone else said I doubt it make a difference in the treatment but I was wondering.

Interesting. I've never encountered Northern Milfoil (Myriophyllum sibiricum) - and for good reason; it isn't found in Texas.
Here's a Series of Maps that display the known ranges for various Myriophyllum species (the "milfoil genus").
Also, THIS LINK includes a side-by-side comparison picture of Northern and Eurasian watermilfoil leaves.
Upon second inspection, your first photo could easily be northern milfoil (a native specie) - and probably is, since your contact indicated that it is common in your region.
As you mentioned, I suspect that most species within this genus will respond in a similar manner to any respective treatments. However, differing levels of sensitivity between the various milfoil species might require higher dose-rates OR allow lower dose-rates for acceptable control.

Kelly:

I read that link. I realize what business they are in, but what are your thoughts on the quoted statement: Registered aquatic herbicides such as endothall, 2,4-D and fluridone do provide temporary control of Eurasian milfoil, but efforts to eradicate the plant "are rarely, if ever, likely to succeed" (Smith CG, Barko JW. 1990. Ecology of Eurasian watermilfoil. Journal of Aquatic Plant Management 28:55-64).

I really didn't focus on that site's "business", but I would generally agree with their statement; particularly when large bodies of water are involved.
As with cockroaches or fleas in a large house, once an invasive plant specie gains a solid foothold within a lake, one's ability to eradicate it is greatly diminished. Although it might be possible to "manage" or "control" entrenched pest-infestations, permanently eradicating prolific and tenacious organisms is quite another story. In that respect, they're similar to a virus.
An insecticide or herbicide treatment, as the situation requires, may readily control the "parent" insect or weed. However, if the parent organism has already produced eggs or seeds prior to its demise, the resulting progeny will undoubtedly cause problems at some point down the road.
For this reason, and in both scenarios, prevention is the key. Otherwise, dealing with such pests when they first appear is paramount to limiting their potential as a long-term problem.

Edit: I reviewed the site to see what prompted your question. I still agree with their statement, but also believe that biological methods ALONE are also rarely successful in eradicating a well established invasive specie; and may occasionally pose their own secondary problems. I fully endorse the use of all "tools" in the toolbox. In many cases, a combination of tools far exceeds the individual benefits associated with any single tool (i.e. synergy).

Kelly, well put and I agree 100% with what you said.

Well, I talked with my guy at the local university and he's quite sure I have Northern Milfoil for the reasons I stated earlier. I asked about the weevil and he gave me the attached artical and told me to use a granular 2 4 d product with spot spraying. I asked about Fluridone but he didn't take the bait.

I did think the artical was interesting though.

Does anybody have any thoughts on how to reduce my costs of either Fluridone or Granular 2 4 D.

I will add file later as I am having problems with the file manager.

Dan - It might help to define your objectives; both short-term (1-yr) and long-term.
If you're only interested in clearing a swim-whole and possibly some fishing "alleys", that's one thing. But, if you're interested in managing the offending plants throughout the lake, that's another thing.
Both objectives will likely require an annual investment to one extent or another.
Either way you go, don't attempt to save too much - and risk losing any benefit from the investment.

In the long term I would like to manage the whole lake to make it something a guy can be proud of. I guess in the short term I would like to be able to fish and swim.

Dan - I'm truly not attempting to split hairs or overcomplicate the task. However, a specific list of objectives and a realistic assessment of available resources are needed to formulate a viable overall management plan - ESPECIALLY for a 20+ acre lake. Your objectives & goals may significantly differ from those that might otherwise make your neighbors proud of their lakes.

The potential list of objectives might contain one, or twenty-one+ goals.

Ex: 1) 20-40% vegetative-cover for optimum fishery habitat. 2) a 2-acre swim-area that is void of vegetation and obstructions, located along a readily accessible and appropriately sloped shoreline. 3) A balanced population of forage fish and xyz gamefish to emphasize maximum catch-rates of moderate-sized fish (or, alternately, a lower catch-rate of trophy specimens).

Available resources: 1) $xx annual investment budget 2) x# of hrs-per-month for labor & mgmt activites 3) required equipment (purchased, leased or contracted).

An overall plan should be oriented around your identified objectives, resources & limitations. Without such assessments, it is very possible to spend a lot of time, effort and money and never achieve your ultimate objective(s). Don't attempt to pave a 1-mile dirt road with a wheelbarrow full of asphalt.

Some of us can provide "input" for managing your lake's vegetation, while others can give "direction" on fishery management aspects, and so forth - but not without better clarifications of your goals, resources & limitations.

In view of the size of your lake and its represented condition, I suspect a private consultation session with a qualified lake management company is likely your absolute best initial investment.

OK I'm starting to get it.
I would, as you state like to have an optimmum fishery first as a swimming hole is secondary so I guess 20-40% vegetative growth. I would also as you say like to have a clear 2 acre swimming hole in the middle of the lake where it is a little deeper. I would like to put in a dock and be able to park a boat there and do a little fishing off it. Otherwise my fishing will be from a boat. I would also like to be able to boat around the lake for pleasure.

I just got a water sample back from the DENR as they did a study this summer and they are telling me "One number that did catch my eye was the phosphorus, it is quite a bit higher than what we would expect to see in the western prairies. I am uncertain what has happened in the lakes past, perhaps the farm site had a feeding area on it that drained into the lake? The plant community is a bit healthier than expected or desired, and this is a function of the high nutrient concentrations" and "The high levels of nutrients are also the cause of the low Oxygen concentrations in portions of the lake, decaying organic matter consumes it.". It just keeps getting better.

Is grass carp a option? My budget would probubly max out around 2K per year. Maybe 5K in one year but then is has to settle down. I do not live on the ranch and visit it about once to twice a month during the spring,summer,fall so I do not have a lot of time to dedicate toward it.

Due to the primary plant specie involved (milfoil), I doubt if grass carp are a viable option by themselves. But, they might play a role in the overall management plan.
With the size and complexities associated with your lake, I think your best initial course of action would involve the previously mentioned consultation with a qualified lake management professional in your region. Personally, I don't know of any "way up there". But, it would be worth your effort to ask around. One potential source for information and/or locating a reputable lake mgmt professional might be Dr. Chipps at SDSU.
I'll be the first to admit that the last thing you need is specific lake management advice from a Texan. So, hopefully, Dr. Chipps will be able to steer you in the right direction. At least you're now able to convey more precisely the objectives that you want to accomplish.
Good luck! - and keep us posted.

Edit: just remembered that you had already spoken with someone at a "local university". It wasn't Dr. Chipps, by chance?

Grass Carp and Milfoil are about like me and broccoli, I'll eat it before I starve to death but otherwise it ain't gonna happen. In my experience I've seen very little if any results from stocking Triploid Grass Carp in lakes or ponds that are primarily Milfoil. As Kelly mentioned that may be because of the differences in our growing season (ours(Texas) is probably 9 out of 12 months). Looking at the list Milfoil is listed 14th on the preferred food list, may be worth a try though if you are on a budget. Best of luck!

So Tilapia don't really like Milfoil or Coontail either?

Tilapia will eat both plants, but you never really know what plants tilapia will eat first in any given year or body of water.

The only reason I didn't shoot down grasscarp altogether was because of some other species (besides milfoil) that Dan posted picture of in an earlier thread.

As for milfoil's growing season: I understand that some species of milfoil will actively grow under ice (cold-water hardy). Of course, I've never had the opportunity to investigate that rumor down here.

Regarding tilapia: are South Dakota water-temps actually warm enough for a sufficient time-span to allow an "affordable" stocking-level of tilapia to effectively populate a 20+ acre lake before they all kick the bucket?

Thanks Rainman....

I think I will try both the carp & tilapia
as a couple of parts of a bigger puzzle.

Tilapia are not legal, nor probably practical for a South Dakota lake....My response was directed at Zep's specific question.

Actually I talked with, Brian D.S. Graeb,Assistant Professor
South Dakota State University
Department of Wildlife and Fisheries Sciences

In conclusion it sounds like there is no magic bullet. My only resonable option is to make some fishing lanes and if I want a swimming hole by using a granular 24D (Navigate) or some sort of Fluridone chemical this spring. With the high Phosphorus and Low oxigen I supose you could aerate but with a lake this size I can imagine it will only have limited success.

I guess we will see what spring brings.

Thanks for the help.

I personally have had more expeience with tilapia than most folks on PB forum, second only to our missing friend Meadowlark, who I credit for popularizing Mozambiqe tilapia in Texas.

Our tilapia program has been very successful in our N.E. Texas ponds for FA control, in addition to increased and improved forage.

I have NEVER experienced vegetation control or muck removal with tilapia. Perhaps blue tilapia in northern waters will provide these benefits, and if so I would be interested in forum member reports.

George I am sorry...but a rookie is confused!

"Our tilapia program has been very successful in our N.E. Texas ponds for FA control" (FA = filamentous algae(pond scum or moss)

"I have NEVER experienced vegetation control or muck removal with tilapia"

To a rookie like me these two statements you made appear to contradict themselves. Please enlighten me and be gentle....lol. I am confused because you seem to say tilapia are "very successful" for pond scum but then in the next sentence you say tilapia are not good on "muck". So I am assuming "muck" and "pond scum" are different things?

ZEP, sorry about that - FA (filamentous algae) is commonly referred as pond scum, but my understanding that the term "muck" is used for dacaying organic materials and silt build-up on pond bottom.

Ok George I gotcha....sorry still learning the language.

Believe me I often refer to the abbreviations page
when I get lost within the pond-guru-lingo. (PondBoss Abbreviations:)

In fact I think they should add the abbreviation page
link to the side bar like "recent posts" because often
new members don't know it exists and probably can not
figure out what they are reading.

As a rookie I guess I was lumping
scum/moss/muck/vegetation all-together
but it is interesting seeing how they
are all very different and require
different "prescriptions".

Howdy ya'll. I'm new to the site. I own and operate Aquatic Management and Consulting out of Clermont, Fl (30miles west of Orlando). We do quite a bit of stormwater system and lake management along with a lot of wetland mitigation maintenance and creation. Also have mucho experience in many fields of environmental permitting and endangered species work.