Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Tryin to balance and boost

Hello everyone I just found you forum. About 9 months ago I bought my NC home, on it a approx 1 acre pond. It was a little smaller but I made it bigger and added some depth changes and points etc. Added 10 Xmas trees, about 20 cinder blocks and about 100 bricks. mostly is piles. There wasnt much weeds or cover when I got it since it was in the winter. You know the first day I closed on the property, most people would unpack. I ran and bought 2 dozen worms. I caught a few sunfish. Fished for a few days before I caught my first bass. OK now I will cut to the chase and tell you what I got.

After catching several bass I noticed nothing very big and skinny. Bluegill seem ok. I caught a few crappy but I knew already to remove everyone of those. So I ran to the hatchery and bought 25 channel cats and 4 pounds of fatheads. A few weeks after that I read about limeing so I bought a bunch of bags and put them in. Prob half of what I could have put. So now spring is coming but still winter. I run out and get a bag of gamefish and got my fish eating it pretty quick. I do all this reading up on hybrid stripers so I run out and get about 20 and 2 more pounds of fatheads. The channels and stripers eat the feed great but I am still begining to reolize that I got a lot of mouths to feed so I made lots of bluegill spawning areas which they pulled up on and spawned all threw the summer, the bass spawned. I really steped up the feeding and have beed taking out all the undesirable sunfishes, the longear and redbrest and some medium size bluegill. The pond does seem to be adding weight on the bass. I started a culling system for the bass, basically if it was skinny I took it out. I bet I removed 8. Here is where I am at. I still think I need to boost the forage base, these hybrids are getting big and I want the bass to get real big. I am thinking of stocking 60 semi adult Coppernose bluegill now to help with reproduction next year. Also add some more Xmas trees for the minnows to hise and spawn and then prob 4 pounds more of fatheads in spring at the same time about 100 smaller Coppernose maybe 2 inches. What do you all think of my situation and plan? I am open for ideas.

Joey welcome to posting on the PB forum. Glad you joined us.

I am going to hold off for now with any log winded post but will make a couple comments. Can you tell us about your water quality ( plankton bloom or visibility depths)and water source and flow through? I would hold off on adding the adult CNBG for at least 2 months ( water temps below 50 degrees). If you put them in around the end of Feb along with some small ones they will survive and soon spawn. Lets see what others say. While you wait read up on pond or population balance here and I would suggest getting the PB book on pond management and subscribing to PB mag.

When I bought the pond I thought the water was very clear. I am a life long bass fisherman so I am not new to fishing but I am new to raising or correcting a farm pond. So my evaluation of the place was clear water with little cover. This observation is what led me to lime the pond. Threw the summer I would not call the water clear, I would say 15 inches of clarity. I had some decent weed growth, not to much. The pond is fed from springs, what I hear its seven springs. When we made the pond bigger we put a overflow pipe. I would estimate the water flow to be about 10 gal a min. During the hot summer I saw days of no flow, most likely heavy evaporation. Also the reason I was thinking to get the coppernose now was to give them a month or two to grow since I am feeding. I feed the fish everyday about 1 to 1 1/4 pounds a day and that is all they eat. There is a lot of good info and I will look into your sugeations.. thanks feel free to long wind... I love to talk about the pond.

I believe I like the way you work, Joey. Conservative CC and HSB numbers added, not overdoing it.

You may be wasting a little money with the fatheads, but if you get some spawning out of them through the Spring/Summer before they disappear, perhaps not. Worrying about spawning structure for the minnows is good to maximize the gain from the Fatheads.

In addition to the lime, the nutrients from the feed have probably also helped your water's fertility some.

What is your water temp now? That will help determine when it will be safest to add CNBG. Ewest knows a lot about them and you should heed his advice. Confidentially, if it were me I'd want to put the CNBG in early enough this year to hopefully watch them feed, too.

If you haven't gotten Lusk's Basic Pond Management and Trophy Bass books, get 'em. I am sure someone who is managing as actively as you are will appreciate them. If you don't subscribe to PB Mag, do so. You should get the Nov/Dec issue so you can read ewest's upcoming article on the use of blocking nets. You may well want to use this method of increasing the effectiveness of fish stocking by insuring more of the fish you buy survive "first contact with the enemy" (LMB/HSB/CC predation).

Just another side tidbit...if your pond is an acre, and you are using a culling program for LMB, you would need to take out far more than (8) LMB. You might want to take out 50-100 to see a real impact from a culling program.

PS. It sounds like you are keeping good notes on what you are doing. This is real good for tracking your progress and status quo.

I agree with you and so does everyone else about culling like 20 pounds of bass. Here is why I didnt. The pond sat unattended for almost 2 years. I felt I didnt catch enough bass and I reall do know how to catch bass. I even started to tag them. I tag about 18 and prob caught another 15. I do see young one but not a ton of them. I was afraid maybe some locals took the bass and even the sunnys for dinners. Not saying I was right but it was a thought. So I started to work on the sunnys after reolizing the stripers and bass might not have enough to eat, maybe they do but I want them to look healthyer. The stripers look great but there eating feed to. There not a pound yet but the Ch cats are I would say almost 2 pounds in less then a year. I hate to think one of them might be dinner soon.. Please keep the toughts coming I pick up a lot for all the posts.

Joey,

Sounds like you are passionate about your pond and that's a good thing, IMO. I have a few years experience with HSB and LMB in the same pond and would like to offer some comments to you based on that experience.

The most important thing I would say is "forage". HSB are voracious feeders and when together with LMB in the same pond, you need lots of forage. BG can provide the necessary forage, but your predators may prevent them from doing so by consuming them. The answer I have found to this is to find another forage source which will complement your BG. For me, Tilapia have been the answer. They provide tremendous copious summer forage and, in my ponds, have enabled an ever increasing BG population which provides more than adequate winter forage.

I've unsuccessfully tried threadfin shad, gizzard shad, and fatheads...none were able to survive the predation. This winter, I'm trying rainbow trout as a supplemental forage...but regardless of what the trout do, I will always have Tilapia in my ponds.

Maybe you will have different results, but for me, fatheads added to an existing predator pond are just expensive snacks for the predators. Invest your money in BG or better yet, in Tilapia which will also increase your BG.

A pond will only support a finite amount of fish. You mentioned that you want to raise large bass. If that is your objective, you may want to re-consider the presence of CC's. Unless you are just a fan of CC's, they may not contribute to your objectives and may, in fact, detract from them. You can only have so much bio mass in your pond...choose carefully how you wish to allocate that bio mass to achieve your pond objectives.

The reason I said wait on the CNBG (poorly explained) was , as Theo notes , their survival. If you put in the common size available as intermediates (3-5 in.)and you have 10-12in. LMB they will be largely eaten as long as the LMB metabolism is up (water over 50+ degrees). If you can get large adult CNBG (7+ in.) then add them now and have fun feeding and watching. Read this link about adding stocker fish to a pond with adult predators. Also look at the second link for water quality basics and pond balance.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000284;p=1#000000

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1428.pdf

Most of all have fun on the pond journey.

Joey, ML is right on about maintaining a healthy forage base of BG with tilapia as added bonus, for LMB and HSB.
IMO, a supplemental high protein-feeding program is also important.

BPB (before PondBoss) we made a major mistake by initially overstocking CC and continue to work toward reducing their numbers.
I definitely agree that CC are not compatible to maintaining a balanced CNBG - LMB - HSB fishery.

All excellent info... keep the thoughts coming. I will definatly stock some Coppernose in the winter months. I had it in my head to go get these 3-5 coppernose so I took a ride this morning. Kinda disapointed... I would say there was only 25 coppernose that were 3-5 there was prob 15 other species not bluegill maybe pumpkinseed and the rest were tiny bluegills all of 2". Well it wasnt a lot of $$ so hopefully the 25 coppernose get a head start. Come winter I found someplace whos truck is coming this way and they pride themselves on these coppernose so I will get a bunch since they will be little and fairly cheap.

Someone mentioned tilpia.. I read there good also. What are we talking in price and how many approx should I put for a acre pond. These fish dont make it threw winter so I understand. My winter here is not bad but I did get skim ice on the pond 2 times.

I do like the Channel cats in there but boy do they eat. there pigs so I figured they might be eating other stuff to. They are a lot of fun to catch though, which is part the reason I put them, figuring they will bite.

I do have real expectations for this pond knowing its only a acre. If I can get a bunch of bass in the 3 pound class and nice solid sunfish I will be more then happy. The nchannel cats are just a bonus and I should be able to take them out pretty easy unless they spawn. Wont the bass eat up any young though?

I got another question about the bluegill. Will they live and grow in a cage? If the ones I get are to small maybe I can grow them a while. I could talk all day about the pond.

Just a quick post... The new coppernose and reg. bluegill have only been in my pond for 2 hours. I just fed the fish. I can see a increadable differnce in my babys and the new ones. I always crush up the pellets for the babys around the dock. I can see its for good cause. My babys are fat vibrent fish that look like there heads and tails are small compared to there body. The new babys are slanky and there tails and heads look big but the increadable differnce is in the thickness across the body. I never really thought what a differnce the feed was doing till I saw this. Anyway I was happy to see the new kids eat, they looked a little stressed but hopefull they hang with the resident babys and learn the ropes.

My little guys are about 2 inches. Does anyone know are these this years spawn or last years?

North Carolina 2 inch fish in late September would hopefully be this year's fish. If they're from 2005 then you've got some pretty slow growth rates. I'm in Nebraska and my 2006 year class range from 2.5 inch for early spawn fish down to some that are 1.25 inches for later spawn fish.

Some 3 lbs bass and solid sunfish sounds like good goals for a 1 acre pond to me - I hope my outlook is realistic, since I have a 1 acre pond, too.

CC are indeed a blast to catch. I'm glad I stocked them, just wish I'd have made it 50 instead of 100 (but glad I didn't go 200). They can indeed spawn, and some may survive predation. Meet Leela, my first confirmed local-born (hatched?) CC that I caught 3 months ago. Since then I have caught 2 of her siblings and an older cousin, plus I know that the smaller CC I'm feeding are most likely 2004 YOY.


These CC fingerlings (and subadults up to maybe a foot) made it in a bass-heavy pond. So I have to keep after the CC population (yeah, it's crocodile tears - "Oh, boo-hoo, I have to go fishing!").

I think BG (& CNBG) should be some of the easiest fish to grow out in a cage. Try a search under "Managing an Existing Pond" for "CAGE" and read the results. (If you have trouble with the search, holler).

P.S. You could make "I could talk all day about the pond." your signature - as could many of us.

O/T

Theo, I want to put some pictures in for you all to see. How did you get the pic in the body of your email.

Read this, Joey..

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000006

Trying to post you all some pictures of the pond I am trying to Balance and Boost. Here goes Hope it works.

Very, very impressive. Looks like nice water quality.

Neat!

So what would you do with this?? I wont say what I did yet. Caught a bass and weighed him and measured him. He measured between 12 1/4 to 12 1/2 and weighed .11*05 eleven and a half ounces. I already have the relitive weight chart. Nowing what I told you so far what would you do?

That's 3 or 4 oz below nominal. IF you seem to have the Crappie under control, I'd take out some more LMB.

I figured that fish to be about 25% underweight. I reall hate taking them out but I did. My rule 10 -13 inch fish that look skinny come out. I keep reading I could have a bass heavy pond with trophy bluegill. I do think this is the way I would like to go, as long as I could keep the bass healthy and up in the 2+ pound class. I dont want tons of tiny one but a bunch 2+ would be good.

I dont know how many Crappys are actually left but they do not seem to big in numbers. I would love to shock the place and see what I got and cull this way to. Anyone know of a inexpensive eletoshocker close to Charlotte NC

Please let me know which or both of these hatcheries are good. I have 2 coming my way in the next 2 weeks. One is Arkansaw pond stockers and the other is Dunns. I really want to pick up 100 coppernose and add them now, there 1-3 inches. there the same as my littleones around the dock so hopefully they mix in and will make it to get brood size.

I ordered my pond boss mag. The girl said she would send it out today... That is good service. That was yesterday so maybe by monday I will get it.

Joey, I would be leery abut buying stocker fish off a truck. You might want to review past threads about pro and cons...

Perhaps others can cite links.

I have dealt with one of these companies with less than satisfactory results, and have read negative reports about the other.

Joey, I got good fish from Ar. Pond Stockers, but it was only 1 day out from the hatchery. I would call and ask the route scheduling to find out how long the fish are on the truck.

I buy fatheads directly from a fish truck that pays regular visits to my feedstore. Great prices and great service. Means a drive of 15 miles for me vs. 100 miles otherwise and much cheaper to boot.

I'm very particular about genetics for my CNBG and LMB so I buy those only from the very best, proven source I can find....no limits to my driving distance when it comes to those. For other fish, e.g. catfish, I wouldn't hesitate to buy from the same fish truck....but then I will never buy a catfish for pond stocking.

I am prety new to all this, just 9 months. I just drove 4 hours to go pick up 60 SUPPOSED 3-5 inch coppernose. When I get there there was maybe 25 that looked like they were coppernose that were 3-5 the rest were 2 inch common bluegill. If I could find out who would sell me a dozen brood fish of a good stock I would drive another 4 hours. In doing the reserch I found those 2 I mentioned but so far not very a good feeling. Anyone know where I can get a dozen or so brood coppernose, I am in NC near Charlotte. Then I dont need little ones at all.

Here is my log of tagged fish so far... any coments?

Date, Length, Weight in Pounds . Ounces???, Bait/Lure, RW, Tag #.

If I got the third column right, I figured it all out. That's about what I keep.

Just was doing a little fishing for catfish. I wanted to weigh and measure one. I put 17, 5 - 8 inch CC in the pond in January. Been feeding them Gamefish feed everyday since about march. I weighed and measured one today. I am shocked. 20 inches long and weighed 4 pounds 3 oz.

I gut hooked a bluegill and a Redear Sunfish. Kinda mad at myself. Here are there pictures. The RES weighed 7 1/2 oz. The blugill..is it a common BG?

Bill, you can chalk one up on your experiance belt... I did what you said, went and got a thin type bobber, went to a tiny hook and did some fishing with the FHM. I definatly dont have a shortage of bass in the pond. Caught 7. Three were in the 7 to 10 inch class and were skinny. four were in the 10 to 13 inch class, 2 were skinny one looked good and one was beautiful. I kept all but the one that beutiful. I am shocked that all these fish are fish I never caught and tagless. I definatly have to many 7 -13 inch fish.

The Fatheads are doing fine in the pen I have. I think what I am gonna do is in a few days another fish truck is comeing, I will go get 3 or 4 pounds of FHM and 50 more CNBG, let about half the FHM go and keep back half to thin the bass more. Hopefully it takes some pressure off the existing BG and new CNBG. I really feel I have to boost my forage.

I cannot see the BG close enough for a definate ID, coloration looks like BG. It is not a RES for sure. I need to see the gill flap clearer and closer.

Maybe my computer screen has more detail. I can enlarge the photos really well. The top fish is a female RES and the bottom fish is an immature male BG.

I agree. The BG is not ,I am fairly sure a CNBG. Fin colors show no sign of white , yellow or orange fringes

I was sure the pictures was a RES but I didnt know male or female. How did you tell that? The other fish I was pretty sure was a reg BG.

So I removed the seven bass today I caught with the FHM. I did there relitive weights but it isnt exactly true because they had a belly full of FHM's. I think i need to cull out more. these were there sizes, seems all my fish are falling into this slot.. I have removed 8 pounds so far this year. my pond is .7 of a acre. How much more? Maybe 8 more pounds?

8" .2 no R/W
9" .2 no R/W
10" .4 80%
10 1/4" .4 80%
12 1/2" .9 90%
13 1/2" 1.1 85%
14 1/2" 1.5 93%

Female RES has a thinner opercle border (ear tab) that is more orangey, as opposed to red.

I am getting back to boosting the forage. I thought Mosquito fish might add another level of forage. Been trying to get some local with no luck. Today I called someone who will ship them at a fair price. There is a but... he said that most fish dont like to eat mosquito fish... there is a coating or a fowl taste that turns fish off. Well probly not the boost I am looking for but prob will add some in a few weeks anyway.

Was also thinking of cast netting some threadfin shad. could get them easy from a big lake here. I doubt they live threw the winter but what do you think to add them now to spawn all summer long?

I had been considering stocking gambusia, but have just read too many negatives. I have decided against it. They are very aggressive against other fish, even larger ones and attack in groups, biting off fins, tails etc. Also they are tough on nests. They are so small, just cant justify them as forage. They are not any more efficient at preying on mosquito larvae than other small fish. I will make do with my golden shiners and probably add fatheads behind a net so they can spawn. Gambusia, being livebearers, seem to be too prolific.

Hmmm, that's interesting, I've never heard that before.

Experts, any truth to this theory?

I'm not an expert Jeff, but I've been keenly observing gambusia for many years. I think Burg is right. Gams are not great bait. Although I have caught many bream, bass, and crappie on gams, they prefer other bait to them. I do not like them as a primary forage species, but I think diversity is important. They are better survivors than fatheads, but that isn't saying a lot. I have never seen an over population of gams. I have always noticed them in pods of 100 or fewer... usually much fewer. Their legendary mosquito control is mostly myth. They're superior to small bream only in shallow ditches where bream can't survive. Bream are much quicker and eat a lot more. I think egg eating is a little overblown. Bream and bass lay their eggs where gambusia will never go. If they go near a nest, they're instant lunch. Fatheads lay eggs in gam territory, but they are fiercely protective of their eggs. I'm sure the gams get some of the FH eggs, but so do BG.

Joey, since you have kept good records on the LMB you have tagged, you can now SWAG the number of LMB in your pond. Total # of tagged fish caught/ the total caught = total # of tagged fish/ X or total number of fish in pond. On Sunday you caught 20 LMB of that 20 4 were tagged. You know that you have tagged a total of 10 fish in the pond. Then 4/20 = 10/x then X =50 fish in the pond. You caught 1/5 of the tagged fish. Hence the number of fish in the pond is 10 times your # of tagged fish. The more fish in your sample the more accurate it is. Also we assume that all the tagged fish are still catchable as are all the untagged fish.

what am i seeing with my gams right now? they are schooling up in near surface small pods right along the shoreline. several inches below the gam pods are many expectant BG, i am guessing, waiting to snatch newly hatched youngins. seems to me in el dorado, the BG are the bullies, the gams the prey....its fun to watch.

You may not consider yourself an expert Bobad but you obviously pay close attention to what is happening in and around your pond. Thanks for posting this information.

24 5-8 inch Blue Tilapia...stocked today. Actually got them to try to help the FA alge but I will take the extra forage base to.

Thanks in advance if you answer.

Just trying to figure if I messed up or should I be still OK.

Subject... Catfish.

Recently, we have been catching several bigger cats, there is only 6 that are like 7 pounds but we been catching 4 pounders which was from my second stocking..that I thought didnt make it.

My thought was I better see if the other stocking of cat were still here. I thought the bass ate a lot of them but... I fished for them yesterday and UT OH I caught 3. 2 Albinos and 1 regular CC. Both FAT as pigs. and those Albinos ARE DEFINATLY not eating pellets. I never see anycats except for the original 6.

Threw out the stockings I put 311 channel cats, of those, I know 11 or so died. I figure there could be as many as 300 of various sizes. My pond is about 3/4a.


You think I got to many?

What the heck are they eating to be fat as pigs and never eating the pellets?

Joey, about 5 years ago we made a big mistake by (over)stocking about the same numbers that you stocked in our ~2 acre pond and still having trouble removing them.

Son Jeff caught a 13.5 pounder on a trot line yesterday but unfortunately also a 5# LMB, so thats not going to work.
Gotta come up with some other way to catch them - those buggers are smart and hook shy..

I have been trying to balance this pond. Its not easy. I want to ask you guys what you think. The cats are getting big but there is only 5 big ones like 7 pounds, the rest are smaller but there are a good number of them. The stripers are wild but there is only a dozen or so. The bass fishing does seem to be better and we are catching small but nice fish now there is still about 20 bigger largemouths in there. I put tilapia so whatever the contributing. My question is, If I have about 500 really nice sunfish living around my docks that are just about spawning size, Do you feel they can support a heavy preditor base if I continue feeding. That dont include all the others that dont come to the dock.

Check out this moose. This fish is less then 2 years old. I put 18 in in late January year before last. They were 6 or 8 inhe skinny things. Over the past 2 years culled some, I am down to 5 of those originals, unfortunatly for this guy now down to 4. I kinda feel bad but there just over 7 pounds and about 25 - 26 inches and I felt 5 was to many. I might go down to 3. ANY THOUGHTS?? Also there supposed to be channel cats but is the tail forked enough? I counted 25 or 26 rays on the anel fin. Here are a few pics. This one took a live Bluegill.

It is a channel. I think the easiest way to tell the the difference is to look at the shape at the bottom of the anal fin. In Channels it will be rounded like the one in the picture. Also the amount of anal rays can range from 24-29, which this fish also lies within.

Definitely a nice CC. Tail is forked plenty, no angle on the back (not a Blue), way too big for a Bullhead, and just plain not right for a Flathead.

Talk about a WAKE UP call. I just cleaned the fish. I feed these pigs every day sometimes twice a day, with added feed at the end for these big cats...THINKING keep them fed so they dont eat much of anything else. WRONG Stomach contained a beutiful 6 inch sunfish and something else smaller. and he went after and ate my 4 incher that I was trying to catch a largemouth with. Sorry to say but there coming OUT, starting tomarrow. I may leave one just to have a lunker. I am in shock, a little pissed at myself. Holy cr_p... those pigs must be eating at least 3 or 4 or more 5 inchers a day. OH boy and I got a lot growing up in there to. I caught 2 12 inch albinos the other day that were fat and I never see them eating the feed.

This is what I love about ponds.

We can see so little of what's happening under water, and when we do catch a glimpse, it is awesome. But it is such a small piece of the whole picture.

This channel cat's gut doesn't lie. He's chowing down on medium sized bluegill, and we'd never really know but for the post mortem. You know, we think we're feeding him to satiation, but really, he's off being a bad, bad boy.

Just like Lusk's skinny LMB with the soft plastic baits in his gut, but Joey's case represents the more "natural" vibe of the fish.

That's vibing with another dimension.

That's it Joey... I've been following your thread trying to learn something and I certainly did... I only have one catfish that I know of, though not nearly of that size, and Ole Whiskers may just come out of my pond tomorrow...

Thanks for the report!

Cam in KY

Thanks for the pics and info, Joey. Your experience has rekindled my search & destroy mission for my big CCs. The pond in question is slowly getting better but is a typical stunted LMB pond. I've been taking LMB out as much as I can get out there, and I've taken all CCs out I've been able to catch.

Like Catmandoo, I've found that they're a worthy adversary. I thought golf was a humbling sport...try catfishing for big CCs. I'm gonna give it another try this weekend.

Caught this guy this morning. I was almost sure none of the little fish I stocked made it BUT...here he is. He took a worm on the bottom, pulled the ultralight pole right in, after I fished the pole out the fish was still on.

I am not really happy with how he looks, looks kinda thin to me. He was pretty wide but belly looked drawn in a bit. He is 13 1/3 inches, I didnt get a weight. I feed Aquamax.

What do you guys think?? Thin or OK