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Here is a picture of my filter nets.



They look quite a bit different than yesterday. Now when I pick up the net as you can see some of the stuff stays attached to it. It has also turned bright green. I put a couple tablespoons of Miracle Gro in last night. I bought some ammonium sulfate and only put in one tablespoon today because it has a lot more ammonia than miracle gro did but I'm going to give it a try. I noticed the pond was turning kind of a brownish green yesterday before I fertilized it. I hadn't added any since I added the fish. My ammonia was still well below 1 ppm before I added the ammonium sulfate. I will test tomorrow and see if it climbs.

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Here's the shot I took this morning of the water coming out of one of the filters.


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Yep looks like algae. Steve, what you are doing will work, but keep in mind that your filters are not exactly designed for intensive management. If you are just planning on feeding your family, what you have should work fine. The greenwater is a big plus for you. But if you want to get into the 2 pounds of fish per cubic foot range, you will really need to beef it up. I think you could use the outflow from those filters to turn an RBC, and you could really jump up your carrying capacity.

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I would be afraid to depend upon water power to turn one of those rotating gizmos. Just about anything would stop one from rotating and once it does it will dry out and never turn. Besides I would be wasting valuable oxygenation power to turn a wheel. What about using an old bar-b-q spit motor to turn one?

I got my three additional filters ready to go. I am just waiting on deer mesh. I think I'm going to redesign the base and make the water come in under the bottom crates instead of on top of them. Then I wont even need the white top baskets. It will mean taking them apart but I think it will be worth it before I put in the deer netting.

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Ever think about using duckweed in a biofilter? If resting at the top it could suck up some of the nutrients in the filter, but then also be turned into food for the tilapia. At the rate it grows, I would think it would alleviate some of the problem, at least.

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Originally Posted By: surfsteve

I would be afraid to depend upon water power to turn one of those rotating gizmos. Just about anything would stop one from rotating and once it does it will dry out and never turn. Besides I would be wasting valuable oxygenation power to turn a wheel. What about using an old bar-b-q spit motor to turn one?

I got my three additional filters ready to go. I am just waiting on deer mesh. I think I'm going to redesign the base and make the water come in under the bottom crates instead of on top of them. Then I wont even need the white top baskets. It will mean taking them apart but I think it will be worth it before I put in the deer netting.


I beg to differ about "wasting" oxygenation power. Using that flow to turn an RBC would INCREASE all gas transfers.

I also wonder what makes you think an RBC is easy to stop. Rock solid reliability and capacity is what makes them the single most common filter used in "old school" (read; reliable)densly stocked aquacultuce systems.



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Originally Posted By: surfsteve

I would be afraid to depend upon water power to turn one of those rotating gizmos. Just about anything would stop one from rotating and once it does it will dry out and never turn.


Originally Posted By: Rainman
I beg to differ about "wasting" oxygenation power. Using that flow to turn an RBC would INCREASE all gas transfers.

I also wonder what makes you think an RBC is easy to stop. Rock solid reliability and capacity is what makes them the single most common filter used in "old school" (read; reliable)densly stocked aquacultuce systems.


Rainman is right. RBC's are actually quite reliable. My axle which is PVC inside PVC and under water, has no danger of it not moving again once it stops. I can assure you there is virtually no friction and it creates flow and oxygenation as it turns.

As far as the plates drying out, in a worst case scenario less than half of the plates would dry out, but if you're worth your salt as a RAS operator you are constantly on guard for power outages and wouldn't let that happen. The big commerical systems have alarms and automatic back up.

Just like NASA you need a back up for everything, regardless of what kind of system you use as you really are dealing with an artificial life support system. I have a spare for all my pumps just in case.

I presently have battery operated pump to take over my clarifier pump that also turns my RBC if I have a power outage. (Only one small 60 watt pump to power the whole system for about $4.00 per month in utilities.) I will in the future get a back up system that will automatically covert my 110 volt pump to a 12 volt DC for up to 12 hours on just one battery. If I put two in a series I can run twice as long and so on.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Have to agree, the bubbling you see as your water trickles into the tank is nothing. Spatter that water against an RBC, and you increase the water to air contact, and add O2. Also the constant rotation of the RBC itself, picking up a thin layer of water, exposing it to air, and re depositing it in the tank, does way more than that little bit of bubbling you see. People always think of aeration the wrong way. For instance, an air stone itself adds little O2 to the water, it is the constant upcurrent that it causes that adds O2. Water to air contact.

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Do any of you guys have any details on the media being used in RBC's? I still haven't got that book I ordered.

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Originally Posted By: surfsteve

Do any of you guys have any details on the media being used in RBC's? I still haven't got that book I ordered.



Page three of this thread third post down. No media just fiberglass roofing cut into circles. In between that is polystyrence plastic cut into circles. The roofing will cost you about $200.00 but the plastic is much cheaper. You also need closed cell foam (the pink stuff in the picture) for flotation.

I was considering making my next one of plastic media packed into a plastic cage mesh cylinder, as i have lots of extra plastic media I used in a packed column, but VanGorder warned me not to. He said it's been done and eventually the drag gets to much and things fall apart including a motor burn out if you use a motor. He says the plates are the way to go as far as he's concerned. He's done a lot of pioneering research and builds large commericial systems so I have a lot of faith in him. The RBC i use in the picture and from the book Small Scale Aquaculture was used in Biosphere II in Arizona. If you don't know anything about that project look it up on the Internet.

Who did you order the book from? I can't imagine why it's taking so long if you ordered it from Amazon.com.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 08/13/10 12:52 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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So did you use the $200.00 roofing with yours, how much did you have in it altogether?

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Not to get off topic, but since we are talking RBC's are the aquarium Biowheel filters the same concept, I was considering one of them for our tank to possibly reduce water exchanges and other stuff.

If so does anyone have recommendations?

Thanks

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Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Not to get off topic, but since we are talking RBC's are the aquarium Biowheel filters the same concept, I was considering one of them for our tank to possibly reduce water exchanges and other stuff.

If so does anyone have recommendations?

Thanks


I think so although I have never had an aquarium. I plan to have one soon built into the wall of my taxidermy studio. I plan on building a smaller version of the RBC using a plastic spool as the main frame. I will use the same clarifier though probably down scaled a little.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 08/13/10 08:39 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
So did you use the $200.00 roofing with yours, how much did you have in it altogether?


Yes I did use the cheapest fiberglass roofing material i could find from Menards which came to about $200.00 if I remember right. That was 10 sheets with five 24 inch circles cut out of each sheet.

If I build another one I will check out a building surplus store I remember passing about 30 miles from here and see if I can save some buying used ones.

The most expensive thing was the fiberglass roofing. Then there were the polystyrene sheets at about $50.00. After that maybe about $40.00 worth of PVC maximum -- along with glue. I had some sizes already laying around it probably wasn't $40.00. I went through 6 or 8 sabre saw blades cutting the fiberglass. I would strongly recommend a band saw if possible.

The pump however was about $70.00 and the agitator about $100.00. I could have gotten by without the agitator for a few months as there was plenty of oxygen produced by the water splashing into the baffles and the RBC rotating.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Not to get off topic, but since we are talking RBC's are the aquarium Biowheel filters the same concept, I was considering one of them for our tank to possibly reduce water exchanges and other stuff.

If so does anyone have recommendations?

Thanks


Same concept, I had one on my aquarium years ago. It worked really well.

I also built a mini RBC from a pleated canister filter. I believe it was 10" diameter x 20" long. I made some hubs, mounted it on a 1/2" shaft with nylon bearings and rotated it with a synchronous gear motor. It worked really well, just need to keep them out of any light. Surface area was really high. I can't remember what it was.

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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1

I was considering making my next one of plastic media packed into a plastic cage mesh cylinder, as i have lots of extra plastic media I used in a packed column, but VanGorder warned me not to. He said it's been done and eventually the drag gets to much and things fall apart including a motor burn out if you use a motor.


I was going to try that one except with plastic beads, then I thought bio-balls. I could not convince myself it would work. Now I have a bunch of plastic beads and bio-balls that I have been sitting on for the past 10 years blush

There is a surplus place near the Indiana/Michigan border. We went there a couple weeks ago to get some steel tube for a project. Prices were reasonable, but they did not have the lengths we needed. They have all kinds of stuff there. I saw a bunch of fiberglass in one of the buildings.

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Originally Posted By: JKB
There is a surplus place near the Indiana/Michigan border.


JKB:

Where is the place at? I occasionally need stuff like that for projects and it would sure beat buying new stuff. Is it the place that's South of Constantine on 131?


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: JKB
There is a surplus place near the Indiana/Michigan border.


JKB:

Where is the place at? I occasionally need stuff like that for projects and it would sure beat buying new stuff. Is it the place that's South of Constantine on 131?


Ditto.

The one I was thinking of was farther east just east of 1-69 south of Angola.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1

I was considering making my next one of plastic media packed into a plastic cage mesh cylinder, as i have lots of extra plastic media I used in a packed column, but VanGorder warned me not to. He said it's been done and eventually the drag gets to much and things fall apart including a motor burn out if you use a motor.


I was going to try that one except with plastic beads, then I thought bio-balls. I could not convince myself it would work. Now I have a bunch of plastic beads and bio-balls that I have been sitting on for the past 10 years blush


JKB,

I know I posted this on the Aquaponics site but I thought I would add it here for the benefit of others. It's basically a response to my email about building an RBC made of media vs. the plates: (From Steven VanGorder author of the book Small Scale Aquaculture).

What you are considering has been tried often in the past. In fact, a drum filled with high-surface area material was designed back in the 60's for the sewage treatment industry. And Dr. Timmons from Cornell, and Losordo from NC State built an rbc from spools of plastic material banded together. Lots of surface area, but all of these designs had one problem. They greatly increased the drag through the water. It was completely impossible to rotate the units using a waterwheel ... just too much resistence. And in every case that I'm aware of, the mechanical problems quickly developed. The gears on the motors stripped, the pillow blocks wore out, and finally, whatever methods were used to bind or enclose the media always failed.

This is similar to what happened when we were first developing the small rbc's. We didn't like to have to waste the fiberglass by cutting the plates into circles, so we built units with square plates. Of course, we tried rotating them without a motor but had to go back to it, but we ended up with a pretty nice design. But within a single season, the units just deteriorated.

Sorry. Hope this helps.

I thought you might enjoy a medley of photos showing much of this evolution of design that we went through. Unfortunately, the failures by Virginia Tech, Cornell and NC State left them all with the idea that the rbc's just weren't appropriate for commercial aquaculture. And I've had a difficult time trying to convince them and others that they are. And as you can see in the photos, we certainly had the chance to test them at an industrial-scale.

Steve



If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Originally Posted By: esshup
Originally Posted By: JKB
There is a surplus place near the Indiana/Michigan border.


JKB:

Where is the place at? I occasionally need stuff like that for projects and it would sure beat buying new stuff. Is it the place that's South of Constantine on 131?


I think so. I'll find out for sure tomorrow. I was the passenger so I wasn't paying attention. They got all kinds of stuff there. Looks like they get a lot of their surplus from RV/Camper manufactures. All the steel we looked at was new, just some of it was a bit rusty. The prices were about 55%-60% of new. Tons of trailer axles and springs. You could probably build a nice camper, complete with fireplace with all the stuff around.

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Anyone have any experience with this small bio-wheel filter?, I've been thinking about getting one for my 40 gal. tank that the PS fry will be transferred into.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/emperorpower.html



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Cecil,
Thanks for posting the reply from SVG,

The main issue I had with that design was, it would be nearly impossible to achieve any sort of dynamic balance. And if it became lopsided for some reason things would start to fail. Now, this could be over come with BIGGER motors, gears, bearings etc... but economically, it would be a dud.

I have a new RBC I am designing for my 400 gallon bait fish system. Right now it is 15.75" in diameter and 13" wide. Theoretically, the SSA (Specific Surface Area) is 1280 sq ft. The goal is an SSA of 2000 sq ft or more. We shall see if that happens. Pretty easy to build, and pretty easy to add more sections. It will weigh about 22 lbs (304SS construction) and will be rotated with a small gear motor. One idea I am thinking of is using a power head to create the rotation. I could try that.

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Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Not to get off topic, but since we are talking RBC's are the aquarium Biowheel filters the same concept, I was considering one of them for our tank to possibly reduce water exchanges and other stuff.

If so does anyone have recommendations?

Thanks


Bio-Wheels by Marineland are some of the best RBC's money can buy. The materials used not only provide surface area, but also allow for dead bacterial films to slough off. Marineland has a commercial division that can provide you a Bio-Wheel that never needs replacement and can handle any load you wish to control, but they are very expensive.



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Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
Anyone have any experience with this small bio-wheel filter?, I've been thinking about getting one for my 40 gal. tank that the PS fry will be transferred into.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/emperorpower.html


I had a 330 on my aquarium, and it worked really well. I kept several hundred various bait fish in it at the time without any problems. That is of course after it was cycled.

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Originally Posted By: JKB
Originally Posted By: adirondack pond
Anyone have any experience with this small bio-wheel filter?, I've been thinking about getting one for my 40 gal. tank that the PS fry will be transferred into.

http://www.aquariumguys.com/emperorpower.html


I had a 330 on my aquarium, and it worked really well. I kept several hundred various bait fish in it at the time without any problems. That is of course after it was cycled.


Thanks for the info, I'd like to get one soon so the tank will be ready when I need it. Their in a 10 gal. tank now and that's good for awhile.



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