Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations overcrowding verdict?

I still think education is the key. The more you can teach them about the bad things that happen when you transport fish from one place to another, is gonna be a good thing for your lake. Remind them that bad things happen to a good swimming hole when intra-lake transportation happens. That means showing them a few pictures of really bad looking ponds with hydrilla and a few pictures of swimmers itch and other icky looking stuff. Bring the wildlife officer to help you. Have your officer preach the good sermon about taking every pike that can be caught out of the pond when its caught. Let it be known that the more that come out the better the bass will be.

I will see if i can get the officer out for the 3rd of july derby we are setting up.

There's a big illinois hatchery In spring grove, about 45 mins away, maybe one of their employees would come over, or DNR from the morraine hills state park...who knows.

I'm going to follow up on that, and showing some hydrillia takeover is a great plan, as well as the swimmer's itch.

Any ideas for the cover placement?

Thanks to all!
-skinny

update-
dad & one of the neighbors decided to get rid of the rest of thier wax worms yesterday and fished from the pier. Tons of tiny bluegill. He reported catching over 40 himself, while chuck got 10-12 (dad was out there much longer than chuck). These are tiny bluegill...in years past they were HUGE (due to heavy bass predation of the size i am now talking about, right?) Here's the image i posted on a previous page, that when i showed it to dad, he agreed that they were all about the same size:

so previously i had been told that this could just be seasonal, the reason there were small ones was because in the winter the bass were too lethargic to knock them back. This seems excessive to me, though, that there were this many tiny ones, with ice off and temps in the 60's for almost 2 weeks.
What do you guys think this means? just a curiosity.

thanks in advance,
-skinny

What do you define as tiny?

just like that pic...i think i posted it right (photobucket blocked at the office computer so i can't really see)

it's like 3-4" usually they are between 6-9" ( am assuming 6-9", i've never actually measured one....but Big. Really big in comparison to these guys, like double this size is normal).

Update....mystery solved.

Where did all of these 15-20" pike come from all at once? Well...

So i went up to dad's place to talk with some of the people that have been on board with aiding the pond for quite some time. Brought some diagrams on how to build thier own structure, had a bunch of stats you guys have helped me put together, wanted to convince everybody to start keeping better records, start communicating more, get everybody on a google doc that they could post creel data and observations, you know, to start making more educated guesses than the ones everybody's been spewing out.

Well the question comes up that hey, how did all of thes 15" pike all appear in one year, and why ddi we catch none of them until ice-fishing? I get just about ready to start talking about their growth rates and spawning preferences, and how they are a more verocious hunter than some of the other fish in cold weather, and one of the homeowners speaks up and says.....

wait for it.....wait for it.....wait for it

It's because those city guys put all those pike in our lake last year.

WHAT!!!!?????

Turns out that they had one of the larger lakes in the chain of lakes stocked last november. They had a bunch of left over fish (how is that even possible!!!??? Fox lake is enormous, why didn't they just put the rest in there???) than they had originally planned on using. 'Round comes the city works employee with a giant tank, pulls up to the shared land (where the drain plug is), and dumps in (estimate from the homeowner might be WAY high) 75 15" pike.

So......i guess that answers the question.

looks like we're gonna go on a pike-hunting bonanza. Other homeowners are really peeved, the one who lives next to the shared land (the HOA owns one sliver of the land that no house is on...this is where the drain-gate for the pond is) never thought it would be a big deal....but now he sees how it is. A lot of them are talking lawsuit against the city works department.

LOL......so i guess the overpopulated bass problem will be solved in due time. The overpopulated pike are sure to chow down on them. Now we just need to get about 95% of those pike out of the lake.

So say we take a conservative estimate and guess that there are 35 2yo pike now swimming about in this lake. What do you guys think???

LMAO over here, after all of the brain wracking trying to figure out what was going on and what to do about it. Some dumbass public works guy is responsible.

I spent what seemed an hour or more reading this thread. Here are some of my thoughts at this point.

1. Nice lake with very good average depths. Low percentage of shallow water that can contribute to rooted vegetation problems.

2. Do a rooted weed survey this early summer May-Jun to early fall Sep to document dominant aquatic weed species. Weed community will change over time. Plot weed beds and approx size on your map.

3. Get or make a secchi disk and measure water transparency every week or every two weeks. April to end of Oct/Nov. Plot visibilities on a graph - (excel or similar). As the number of small panfish/filter feeders increases the transaprency will decrease.

4. Does lake have an inlet and outlet? One is not shown on the map. Inlet & outlet will give some info about fertility and retention time and can affect stratificaion.

5. Does lake straify and if so at what depth?

6. If water is as clear as you note (10'-12' up to 14') that suggests to me a lower fertility and productivity and lower carrying capacity (fish biomass) than a lake with 2'-4' of vis. This means you may not have as many small skinny bass/ac as you think you have. Ewest suggests removing 20LMB/ac. It can be a target number. See No 8.

7. Without doing a survey and based on what fish you say are present (numerous predator types), I think the lake has a large and healthy zooplankton population causing the overall clear water conditions (filter feeders). Lake should have lower transparencies due to runoff from connecting house lots. See No 11.

8. For the 1st yr and with numerous NP present/ac(10/ac) you might want to reduce the LMB removed number to 14-18/ac. Then re-assess number removed in 2011 based on catch records. The 12"-20" NP will be in 2010 keying 1&2yr old bass and 3-4" panfish. In 2011 and beyond average consumed forage size will gradually increase. Those 30"+ NP were eating the 8"-12" bass and medium panfish. Since you indicate there are a fair number of small BG IMO you don't want to remove too many bass right away that could dramatically affect the overall catch rate for the average angler. Some like frequent catching versus less frequent with larger size. As mentor Bob Lusk says, the angler catch records will indicate progress and status of the fishery.

9. Have all pike caught so far been removed? Now that we know the NP are probably not recruiting very many if any new ones into the lake IMO keep removing all pike caught. Lake can probably do okay with 2-3 NP/ac. Eventually anglers can get out all NP over the next 4-6 yrs.

10. The manmade structures you will add in a lake this size IMO will basically amount to fish attractors and not refuge areas for small fish. OK to Place them in deeper water front of your dads place or where you prefer to fish. Ideally they should be shallower water 3'-5' but in a HOA lake, deep is okay. We are not talking a very big percentage of the bottom area with structures. Your weed beds and emergent shoreline vegetation will be your main habitat/refuge for fish (large and small).

11. Is shoreline completely surrounded with houses?. Where are houses in relation to the perimeter of shoreline? Make a new map with dots, boxes, or Xs for houses. Then suggestions can be made for vegetation plantings based on house lots and the location of weed beds on the new vegetation map to be produced.

12. For beneficial vegetation do a search here and or read through this thread.
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=213182#Post213182

There are other good species besides those listed that could be introduced based on what your vegetation survey reports. Other BOW's in the chain of lakes or the adjacent wetland/marsh would have specimens/seeds for transplant.

13. That picture of the BG you posted did not look little (2"-4")to me. It was the same BG pic from the ice fishing pics and looked close to 6"-7"long. It was a mature male BG and typically BG don't mature in a lake fishery like your dad's until they are around 7" or more long. Typically stunted BG mature at smaller sizes.

14. IMO the larger LMB they catch in the lake are eating a fair number of small bass. This is a common occurrence in a bass heavy lake. A few big ones feeding on numerous smaller ones because they are common and available. As you remove a larger percentage of smaller skinny bass from the lake expect the average size of BG to decrease. Cach records will verify this.

16 Catch records should also include sizes of BG&crappie csught.

Here's the google map image, you can see the houses, as well as the marshland to the northeast. There is no inlet or outlet, and actually, this lake is at a higher elevation than those surrouding it, so when it overflows, it feeds all the smaller ponds nearby. The marshland there and this lake share a lot, there is a big corrugated pipe that runs under the street for water to flow through if one or the other is about to overflow. the "a" is my dad's propery, and actually where that metal pipe is (we call it the culvert).

I've always been told 7.5 ac. Others have been trying to tell me now that it is 10 ac. Who knows. The more and more i got into this mess, the more and more i recognized the amount of ignorance that all parties involved have displayed, lol, myself included. That's why i ask you guys.

Yes, i believe the lake to be pretty infertile. The weeds grow pretty thick, but the water is ridiculously clear.
Thanks for your input, Bill.

No regular inflow and outflow tends to indicate less fertility from stream flow. Number of surrounding houses 20-22 around entire perimeter limits amount of shoreling vegetation that will be tolerated. A sizable amount of submerged weed beds will consume a big percentage of the nutrient budget for the lake and limit phytoplankton development. Reduction of weeds could result in lower transpariences. It is suprising the lake is so clear because of potential fertilizer runoff from lawns. HOA may have its act together and limits amount of phosphorus in runoff from lawn fertilizer. Lack of numerous planktivorous fish allows more larger species of filter feeding zooplankton to graze on phytoplankton and clearing the water.

Submerged and emergent weed survey is needed. We can identify species from good pics that are posted.

definately no regular outflow. The pond is fed by a spring that pops up in a few different places across the bottom - basically the water percolates up from the bottom through all the limestone.

I'll add a plant survey to the list of things to be done this summer. Generally there are actually a lot of weeds in the bottom of the pond. Very, very thick in some places. Every summer we end up mannually removing an entire canoe-full whenever they have company that might want to swimm off the pier (grandkids). I also know that directly across the pond from dad's pier is a heavy bed of weeds every year that goes unmanaged, and the southern end of the pond is much the same.

I'll take some pics and mark on the map next time i get up there. Lots of things going on for the next few weeks, probably won't be until mid-may early june before i can arrive.

Thanks
SB

Oh, that's priceless! Great story, SB!

Update:
13 mini-pike removed since may 1, about 20 skeletor bass.
Onezy, the mythical lake beast, was found floating belly up in the lake, so the big pike is gone.
The walleye was caught again (supposedly, i did not see a pic)
Caught a 2lb bass this year, biggest i have ever seen from the lake, and my friend chris who is helping my dad fish the pond out got one that he says is 3lbs. Big fish for that lake.
Discovered another predator species: warmouth.

So we've got way to many pike, warmouth, lmb, black crappie, walleye, and a wide variety of types of bluegill (besides pumpkins, i have trouble telling the difference..but at least 3 more distinct kinds).

No pics just yet, trying to get my dad to start sending them to me. 4th of july bbq i will be out there for a few days fishing, and will make sure to get some.

The pike and skinny bass hunt is ON!!!!

Further update:
apparently it may not have been the city who dumped the pike in, but rather one of the newer residents, who is actually just a renter (his grandma's house, i think, but both renting and adding fish aren't allowed....so of course he denies everything)

When i was up for memorial day he saw me put a pike in a bucket and came out screaming about c&r & how he was going to have me kicked off the lake. The funny part is 3 or 4 of the other residents saw the whole thing and basically told me not to listen to that jacka$$, and do whatever i like.

One of the perks of actually caring about the lake and trying to be friendly and communicate with everyone, i guess, the one who isn't friendly with me about the lake apparently gets on everyone's bad side.

On the other hand, if i had just gone through the trouble of calling people to tell them where to put fish, or even paying for 75 NP, maybe i'd be a little pissed to see a resident's kid show up in a paddleboat and start taking them out. lol.

With a bad weekend fishing, I noticed a few things:
first, all of the bass caught are in the same size range still. Still evidence of overcrowding, right?
second, that range has gonoe up from 10-12" to 12-14".
Ice fishing this year we had noticed a little growth too.

What does that mean? The bass culling has been light. Just me and my dad doing it, and only off and on (dad won't kill fish in front of the grandkids...). Personally I don't think enough to make a difference, but obviously, something happened, i mean, the bass grew, right?

So what do you think that means?

Thanks
-Skinny

It's a year later, and the LMB grew. Since they are over 10" now, you should be able to weigh them and compare WR's. I don't believe they will grow in length without having enough weight on them, so it looks like you are on the right track.

just found these on my digicam, thought i would throw them on here. Pics from dad's pond standing on the culvert between his property and his neighbors.
Looking north:

Northwest:

West:

and south:

Ok, random question.

So the plan to establish a more balanced fishery with a little more weight on the bass (a few in the 2-3lb range would be great, so far have only seen one of these out of all the times i have fished there, although i have heard reports of a few more).

One thing i noticed this weekend was the ridiculous amount of blugill. Rained horribly on saturday, and on sunday, the gills were all up close to shore. Minnow traps were chalk full of baby gills, and if you use small bait, you can hardly keep the gills off the hook.

I might be crazy, but since most of the gills are much to large to feed a bass (or a pike for that matter), would it be a good idea to remove a day's worth of gills via hot dog fishing? You guys are the experts, but with so many bluegill, is it effecting the carrying capacity for the other fish? Absolutely not stunted, i can tell you that. A lot of gills very well grown, many smaller ones too, a good range of them.

I'm no expert but it sounds like your efforts are starting to work. A few years ago the only sized BG I ever saw or caught in my pond was big (6"+). And all you could catch were small skinny bass, because there weren't enough small BG for the bass to get full on. Since then I've started thinning the small bass and feeding the BG and the average size of bass caught has increased and their relative weights are good too. And I now see BG of all sizes, just like you. I wouldn't remove any BG. If you now have a healthy BG population it should only be a matter of time until the bass start growing too.

Skinny: I think you are seeing the results of your work. I'd leave them (the BG) in there and keep monitoring the LMB WR. The LMB won't become super fat overnight. You were fighting a battle with stunted bass, it'll take a few years for the fingerling LMB to get up to size. Remember, stunted LMB won't grow to their full potential, but if they weren't stunted for many generations, then their offspring will look great.

Have patience!

Rock on. Maybe in a year or 2 I can Adjust my moniker to "BalancedBass"

Thanks for your advice, guys.

All in all, though, not too many bass have been taken from the pond. I know i have taken out maybe 20, 30 lbs, and my dad may have a little too, but not too many in reality (maybe the pike did a number on the yoy and fingerlings, and that has helped??? I dunno)

Which brings me to my next question...we are safe from a pike spawn until spring, right? So ice-fishign this winter, any i take out (or that get taken out in fall) won't be able to breed?

edit: there can't be any negative reaction from killing the culled Skinny Bass and pike and throwing them back into the lake, can there? I mean that is just fertilizer, right?

And these things that i think are warmouth....i like having them there (although i don't think dad even knew about them before i pointed them out....) because they bite on slow days when nothing else wants too. Should i be taking them out too? I'd really rather not. And the Crappie, i hear such bad things about them from you guys, lol....but there can't be that many of them, and i like pulling them out through the ice....should i take those out too or am I good, leaving them in?

here;s yet another photo i've been meaning to add. This is the biggest bass we've gotten out of the pond to date, weighted in at 2 lbs 1oz. Judging by the fact that my hand is as big as my head in this pic, i'm trying to learn the fabled picture technique you all boast about, but havent quite mastered it yet.
This was in mid-may, and sorry for the pic quality, it had to be re-touched by the good wolks at walgreens, this was at about 8 pm, and there was very little light and a cheapy disposable camera.

Another interesting tidbit:
That house across from me, to the left of that point, that is where most of the pike were being caught. I notice 2 things about that property compared to others. a) no retaining wall. It is a gradual, grassy slope to the water. Most other gradual slopes are sandy beech areas, otherwise there are retaining walls (for the most part). b) besides being just before a point, with an underwater island about 3' below the surface to the right of that point (some of the best structure in the pond, at least according to my cheapy topo map i made ice-fishing) the area between his two boats (look above my shoulder in the top left of the pic)is a steep dropoff, from 2-6' in the matter of a few inches. Also more well-defined structure than most other places in the lake.

Any who- rock on.
Skinny

Skinnybass, did you get the length of that LMB? I was curious what the Wr of the fish was.

No, Jhap, not that i remember, at least. I can tell you that i got a 19" one through the ice last winter that was smaller, and much skinnier than that (of course it was in winter too).