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You may think it is bad advice, because you have never seen the damaging effects first hand. Salt accumulates in water. I cannot say that enough. That is where it gathers and stays. It would not take long for those cupfuls of salt to equate to a few sacks of rock salt. I live in an area of disasterous salinity issues. Here is an older study from UC Davis, a few members understand the expertise this ag school supplies the public.

http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/repositoryfiles/ca4606p18-69646.pdf

You know what a 2,000 acre salt pond looks like? Can you imagine over 600,000 tons of salt leached out annually? This is where I live. I know this subject like the back of my hand. Salt exists everywhere on this planet. Two thirds of it are saturated seas and oceans. Salt also exists in rain, groundwater and city mains. It does not stay in the surface soil long, where the cupfuls are being sprayed. It leaches down to the water below. If this homemade recipe was used continually next to this pond, it would be just a matter of time before that pond was dead. If you think that is bad advice your ignorance on the subject is obvious.

You know how many truckloads of road salt were applied here? Zero.


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But we don't live where you do Pond Frog and we don't have the salinites you have. That's what you're ignoring.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Pond Frog, we are limited by what we know.
That includes me, and in this case, you.
You can defend it all you want, but the science of your advice in backabit's case is dead wrong. For every study you find, I'll find two that disprove it.
Yes, I've worked with ponds twice as salty as ocean water, in near west Texas. The soil is sterile to plants that won't tolerate those concentrations, but there are plants living in those soils, leeching the salt and using it naturally and the pond is alive with its own algaes and tolerant creatures.
As a private fisheries biologist and lake manager in my 31st year as a professional, traveling North America helping landowners be better stewards of their land and water resources and owner of this website and Pond Boss magazine, my experiences and knowledge stand on its own merit.
Yours does, too.
The way we respond to questions on this website is a reflection of what we know and what we can discern and convey through the written word.
This question was clear.
So is the answer.
Now, sitting in my shoes, it will be interesting how you respond next.
I'm hoping you'll see the advice and respond appropriately.




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He can teach to catch fish...
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Here is a scientific fact: No matter where you live it applies, water leaches salt out of soil. It holds it, it accumulates it. This area was not naturally saline, the water brought it in, and caused salinity, then became saturated. Many of these farmers have to retire acreage, as in it no longer supports crops. This homemade recipe would just add to the naturally occuring salt, and accumulate not in the soil it was applied on, but the water table below it. Maybe 8 cups annually, maybe more, it's just simple math how many years it would take to reach the point of no return. In the path towards there, every cup of salt is degrading the water table, it's ability to dissolve O2, it PH, it's ability to support plant life. This is not my opinion, this is proven science. It's not about truckloads of road salt, nor where I live, this is basic science that applies anywhere and everywhere.

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One additional variable - How much water leaves the pond through the outlet? The water leaving the pond through the outlet contains disolved salt, the amount that leaves will equal the amount of salt added to the water, divided by the gallons of water in the pond, multiplied by the gallons leaving the pond through the outlet. If the water is saturated, then the amount leaving the pond is limited by the maximum solubility of your water (depends on water properies and temeperature). Unless your pond loses its water only through evaporation and seepage, the water leaving a pond will likely lower your salinity way below any measurable amount unless you add tons to your pond. Talk to your local extension or natural resources folks. "There is nothing less productive than arguing with someone who already knows the answer and does not consider alternate possibilities." Can't remember who said this first, or if I quoted it correctly, but you get the point.

P.S. I do not advocate spraying concoctions rather than highly efficacious herbicides that have been tested for safety.

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RAH makes the only good argument in the entire thread. At least he does not say The Frog is wrong because we say so. Water movement is a huge factor. That is how the farmers in San Juaquin keep farming, they drain the subsurface water out and put it into salinization ponds. Other choice, retire the land and make it a salinization pond.

UD Davis folks are not wrong, neither is the water quality expert, but the Frog always is here as of late. Would I ever show up to a customer's pond with some homemade concoction called weed killer? Of course not. I would use gly, like always, like I already said.

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catmandoo wrote: "For nearly sixty years I've used vinegar, and a little salt, on my cucumbers, salads, and holiday headcheese."

OK, that's just wrong! Headcheese????


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Originally Posted By: Sunil
catmandoo wrote: "For nearly sixty years I've used vinegar, and a little salt, on my cucumbers, salads, and holiday headcheese."

OK, that's just wrong! Headcheese????


I don't understand. What's wrong with that? Putting mayonaise or ketchup on the headcheese (sylte) would be just wrong! But, not vinegar and salt. Geeze, how do you serve it at your house?

When I make my Thanksgiving batch this year, I'll make enough so you and the family have some to enjoy, and to try with many different condiments.

Ken


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You really don't have to. Really!


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Ok I have to know, what is Headcheese?

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Head cheese or brawn is a cold cut originating in Europe. Head cheese is not a cheese but a meat jelly made with flesh from the head of a calf or pig (sometimes a sheep or cow) in aspic. While the parts used can vary, the brain, eyes and ears are often removed. The tongue, and sometimes even the feet and heart may be included.

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_cheese

Last edited by Attica Farmer; 08/13/10 12:41 PM.



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Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Ok I have to know, what is Headcheese?


Attica Farmer hit it right on the head. His link has good photos and a very good description.

I don't use heads much anymore, as they are too hard to find. So, I just use pigs feet, neck, and shoulder, and I usually add some fresh venison.

As Attica's links says, it goes by many different names in different countries. My brother refers to it as "pig Jello." Absolutely delicious by any name!

And Sunil -- it won't be any bother at all. Heck, we would even enjoy a ride towards Pittsburgh at that time of year. What days are you going to be home around Thanksgiving?

I'm just a little concerned that we are talking about delicacies like headcheese on a thread about homemade weed killer. Somebody could get the wrong ideas.


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Originally Posted By: The Pond Frog
RAH makes the only good argument in the entire thread. At least he does not say The Frog is wrong because we say so. Water movement is a huge factor. That is how the farmers in San Juaquin keep farming, they drain the subsurface water out and put it into salinization ponds. Other choice, retire the land and make it a salinization pond.

UD Davis folks are not wrong, neither is the water quality expert, but the Frog always is here as of late. Would I ever show up to a customer's pond with some homemade concoction called weed killer? Of course not. I would use gly, like always, like I already said. And I would not try and push some gly product for twice the price per gallon available with 36% active ingrediant vs. 41% and sit there and say, well, I think mine works better, and I'll give you 10% off for being a member. How wrong is that?


TPF,

I'd love to go to the link you provided and show you the flaws in your thinking but considering you'd probably disagree anyway it isn't worth the time. I'll hand it to you. You are one stubborn dude! grin


Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 08/13/10 01:00 PM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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I thought the headcheese conversation might help everyone relax but Cecil had to go ruin it for everyone by getting back on topic ..

LOL




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Originally Posted By: Attica Farmer
I thought the headcheese conversation might help everyone relax but Cecil had to go ruin it for everyone by getting back on topic ..

LOL


Sorry about that Attica. blush Here I thought it was just another random offtopic hijacking. I never realized there could be a purpose. grin


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Somewhat tangential, but very illuminating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax

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Originally Posted By: catmandoo
Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
Ok I have to know, what is Headcheese?


Attica Farmer hit it right on the head. His link has good photos and a very good description.

I don't use heads much anymore, as they are too hard to find. So, I just use pigs feet, neck, and shoulder, and I usually add some fresh venison.

As Attica's links says, it goes by many different names in different countries. My brother refers to it as "pig Jello." Absolutely delicious by any name!

And Sunil -- it won't be any bother at all. Heck, we would even enjoy a ride towards Pittsburgh at that time of year. What days are you going to be home around Thanksgiving?

I'm just a little concerned that we are talking about delicacies like headcheese on a thread about homemade weed killer. Somebody could get the wrong ideas.



So you make your own. May have to try to get you to send some this why the next time you make some.

Thanks for the info and now time to get back on topic.

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I'm not going to offer any commentary on this topic but I think Penn and Teller did this bit the best http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi3erdgVVTw I watched this video a long time ago in a class that focused partially on public relations in the environmental field. I love the lady who says she doesn't need to hear anymore about it and that she'll sign...while holding a bottle of water!


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The homemade weed killer "could" be okay for occassional use, but I would not use it on a regular nor a frequent basis. It could initially kill weeds but it could alter the growing conditions of the soil to promote another resistant plant or even damage the microorganisms in the soil that keep the soil "healthy" and functioning properly. A healthy soil is important. Normal soil does contain myrids of living organisms to process organics that accumulate in or on the soil. A resistant plant once established my be more difficult to eradicate than the original offending plants.

An approved herbicide such as a glysophate product (examples Rodeo + surfactant or ShoreKlear-Plus) dissipates and breaks down relatively rapidly leaving very little or no toxic residue and not altering the soil conditions.
Currently glysosphate products are in a price war and prices for it are about 1/2 what they were a couple years ago. Makers of Round-up (Monsanto) maintained fairly high prices with the rationale that newly developed surfactants make their product better than other brands or generics. But even now, makers of Round-Up are changing their philosophy and lowering their basic price. Users should currently see or will soon see a price decrease. Homemade may at times appear to work okay but it is not always better especially in the long term or if all things or features known and unknown are considered.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/14/10 01:55 PM.

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Just think! This thread would have probably only had two entries if Bill Cody's post above would have been the second post! That makes perfect sense, even to me.

I wouldn't have had to bring out the homemade headcheese recipe as an antidote.





P.S. The photo below is not headcheese -- it is cheesehead. There is a big difference. One is home made, the other home turf. Neither is very toxic, unless you are also a Viking's fan when they play each other. Being from the border, I'll spare you the embarrassment of seeing me in my horns-n-pigtails head dress and my Twins' Homer Hanky. Unfortunately, both states have been pretty seriously polluted with this material.




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Ken, you are the salt of the earth. Our distinct pleasure to know you.

I think you've lived close enough to Pittsburgh now to take the Steelers as your home team.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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Ken:

It's been a while since I've had a headcheese sandwich. Tomorrow I'm going to have to hit the local grocery store and see if they have some.

My Dad's cousin's wife that lives in Fifield, Wi. is a die hard Packers fan. Dad always gives her a hard time during football season, and if the Bears lose, she's on the phone to him the second the game is over.

They don't know it, but I'm supposed to be getting 2 tickets to the Bears/Packers game in Soldiers Field this September. One of her sons will drive her down, and they both will go to the game together. Now that'll be interesting!


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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
But even now, makers of Round-Up are lowering their basic price. Users should currently see or will soon see a price decrease.


Bill, as usual, I'm impressed! Your info is very accurate and timely. wink

As for the rest of this thread, I've enjoyed my popcorn in the bleachers - so far.

Although I do NOT agree with the portrayed ramifications of using the vinagar/salt weed-cocktail on a limited or infrequent basis, I also can't imagine anyone concluding that such a concoction; which caustically "mows" weeds on a temporary basis, is a more user-safe and "greener" alternative to properly diluted applications of glyphosate.
Granted, I have a vested interest in the later. However, I truly attempt to look at such debates from both angles. Maybe my bias has blinded me to the environmental-logic surrounding such "organic" approaches.
Then again, exactly what is "organic"?
Isn't it, by definition, any substance that is carbon-based????


Now I'm confused.

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Here's a question for the masses.

If I have a glyphosate solution in a semi-transparent white contaner (mixed for application) and if it isn't applied directly after it's mixed, how long will it stay active, and will it retain it's potency?

My JD 345 has some motor issues, and the 25 gallon tow-behind sprayer is full. It's been on the trailer in the sun and heat for the past 2 days, and with the rain forecast for tomorrow, I don't know if I'll get it applied tomorrow either. If not, I'm shooting for Sunday.

Thoughts?


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Oooh boy! This whole thing is ripe for moderating and lockdown.

Originally Posted By: Sunil
Ken, you are the salt of the earth.

I hope that doesn't mean you think I'm toxic to ponds. It could cost you your holiday gift pack of headcheese!



Originally Posted By: Sunil
I think you've lived close enough to Pittsburgh now to take the Steelers as your home team.

It's not about the team. It's not about the game. It's about the rivalry and the tailgating. Sometimes it even takes on political meaning. Like needing better BORDER CONTROL. Think FAVRE!

It divides families on game day



It can kill a referee's career


Where else can you have an outdoor BBQ at -23 degrees with brats and beer?


(Have we managed to hijack this thread far enough to detoxify it?)


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