Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose smallmouth question

86°F at the bottom? Yikes!! How deep is it?

How many have you lost so far?

Pond is 17' at the deepest spot. One diffuser at 17' and 2 at about 10'. I put a thermometer on the bottom between 2 diffusers. I'm losing 2-3 smallmouth per day plus a large BG or two per day. No small fish. The smallmouth that have had problems can be seen in shallow water, loafing with no apparent fear of my approach, which is very odd. The next day they are dead.No marks or discoloration and strong looking fat fish. I dont know if you can have too many minnows,but there are more minnows than I've have ever seen anywhere. I'm just wondering if it could be reaching capacity.The entire shoreline is teaming with minnows at all depths.The rest of the lake has large roaming schools of golden shiners. I'm talking about 15-20 ft circles of them especially around the diffusers. They sit in large groups facing directly into the bubble stream and are preyed on heavily. Feeding times are 7:30 am and 6:pm and response is strong. The only thing that I've changed recently was the feed. I went from aquamax 400 which is partially sinking to 500 which is a totalling floating ration. I have seen a few dead crawfish along the shore.Crawfish appeared naturally/ not stocked. There are also lots of bullfrog tadpoles that are constantly coming to the surface. I have not seen any fish piping. The troubled SMB just sit in about 8-10 in. of water until they die, almost as if they are blind and deaf.Near their death they can be dip netted without a response.
Is there such a thing as super heating? Like the super cooling that I've read about here. Maybe closing the valve on the deepest diffuser to allow some cooling to take place would be something to try.
Some good news! At the time of this edit, there were no dead fish today. We had 1 1/2" of rain yesterday evening.Maybe that helped some.I don't know

This scenario makes me ill to read - I really feel for you Verdehoy. I think you need to contact Bob Lusk ASAP and let him know what's going on. Odds are he's seen something like this before, and resolved it. I'm sure you would rather be doing something than just watching your SMB die daily.

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It sounds to me like the water doesn't have enough DO in it, and is too warm. The GSH with their noses in the aeration upwelling *to me* points that way. Are there any fish piping at the surface in the very early morning hours?

I haven't seen any piping. I'm building a house by the lake and i'm there about 6:30AM almost every day to watch the feeders go off at 7:00. It has been very hot here for an unusually long period of time. The minnows have been hanging out by the bubbles for a long time. Actually, they have been there since just after spring start-up of the system. I'll try to find someone that can test the DO asap. Sounds like a good place to start. Thanks

Typically it will be the highest late in the afternoon, and lowest early in the morning. Hot cloudy windless days are the worst.

Wow 86 to the bottom at 17 feet?! You must really be mixing that water. Perhaps you should have only run the diffusers at night to allow cooler water below?

If I remember correctly Ted said I would be turning the water volume 2x daily. Any suggestions about what I should do now,if anything. I let a message with Bob and will try Ted also. Any ideas about where I could get a decent DO meter for less than $750 or so.It seems like a good thing to have.I enjoy playing with stuff like that.

verdeboy, you used the word "decent" for a DO meter. Well, you can get one cheaper, but is unlikely to be decent.

Is there any downside to switching to nightime areation only? That makes sense to me. We are looking at another very hot week ahead.

I don't think the couple SMB died due to too warm of water temperatures. Although as mentioned, very warm water does not absorb / hold as much DO as cooler water. In my experience they can easily tolerate 90F water if adequate DO and good water quality are present. The younger SMB 1-4yr olds tolerate warmer waters better than the oldest SMB. I assune the genetic stock came from somewhere in the midwest rather than far northern areas of upper US or Canada. A far northern strain of SMB may be more intollerant of warmest water temps. I agree with some of the others and think it might, repeat might, be a DO problem or some other problem.

I am not concerned with the GSH oriented with heads pointed inward around the aeration upwelling. This is common behavior for especially shiners. They are feeding on the zooplankton that is intrained in the upwelling water. Often predators will also hang out near the boil to prey on shiners or small fish feeding on the zooplankton in the water as it spreads across the surface layer.

Running your aerator as much as you are doing (24/7) should not result in low DO. Although pockets of low DO could be present depending on the placement of diffusers, bottom contours / shape, or maybe an island is present.

It is possible you have some ill fish. Bacterial and virus infections do occur in certain fish to cause death.

Thanks for the info. The fish came from a hatchery about 75 mi. south of me. Today was another floater free day. Thats two in a row! This evening I watched closely as the feeders went off. Lots of BG feeding going on and smallmouth nailing minnows at the surface as they push pellets around.Everything seems fine at this point.Hopefully this is over with. The total loss at this point is 8 SMB,6 BG and one 5" GSH.At least thats what I found. Things could be worse.

I forgot to adress the isolated pockets of low DO. All shallow areas slope to a common deep spot near the levee.There are no isolated area in the bottom contour

It could be that you lost the few most tempertature intolerant of the batch of SMB that you bought. All fish in a year class have a continuium of tolerance due to varience of genetic composition to various environmental factors. You maybe just lost your weakest or most vulnerable fish.

I hope thats the case. Would you suggest going to nightime aeration as was suggested to minimize temp rise. We have mutiple days of near 100* in our future. Thanks

I'm not Bill but that is what I'm doing for my yellow perch and smallmouth bass, although my smallies in the 6 to 10 inch range don't seem to be bothered by temps up into the mid 80's and slightly above. I see then patroling the shoreline looking for fatheads.

I turn on my compressors after dark, and turn them back off in the morning unless temps stay in the 60's for a while. You can use a timer which makes it easier.

I guess it all depends on what happens to your D.O. during the day in the deep water. If D.O. is at least 4 ppm until you crank up the compressor in the evening you should be fine.

One thing you may have going for you during the day is phytoplankton and macrophytes should be producing oxygen for you during the day.

Bill?

My compressor is run through a timer. I have it running 24/7 now. At the rate that I'm stirring the pond,2x the volume per day,it may still be effective in the overnight hours. Sounds logical to me, but then I'm the one losing the fish.I'm still looking for a DO meter if anyone has a suggestion or source.

Glad to hear no morts the last two days!

I do NOT own a DO meter, however, was once in the market for one and was most frequently directed to the YSI brand. It's been some time since I was researching, but IIRC I was looking at around $650 for meter, cable, etc.

Cody or Cecil can help you with more info.

I would add several sheets of blueboard foam (or anything you can get your hands on) to provide shade into the pond. Next I would run the shallower aerators and shut off the deep one completely or move it up 6 feet. Also would shut off the fish feeders and only feed by hand for the next month.

If the visibility gets less than 18 inches I would slowly kill it back or plan on a surface aerator at night as well.

The fish are just stressed with a combination of hot water and low oxygen during portions of the night. The weakest will become delirious and die off. I think you have alot of fish biomass in the pond already with all the minnows.

verdehoy, OK we just spoke on the phone and you have my 2 cents. I was curious as to those temps so I went out and probed a few. I have been running a larger system in a smaller pond then yours. 11.2 cfm to 5 stations in a 1.2 acre 9 ft average depth pond.Running large system for last two weeks to get Rex's Blues nice and warm and to gass off the sulfer and precipitate out the iron in my makeup water. I normally run a 2.5 cfm and two station system.In the top ft between two diffusers I am 86.1 F and at 13 ft (bottom is 14ft)I am 82.2F and 89% saturation or 6.9 ppm DO. Your system in 1.75 acres with a deeper average and a 4.4 cfm compressor to 3 stations should not have your temps the same from top to bottom.Be sure to check your thermometer.I think with cutting the feed back (or out) for now and shutting down the deep unit and also slowing down the other two as we discussed will lower your temps without giving up DO.

Thanks Ted! I have disconnected the deepest diffuser hose from the compressor and cut back on the shallow ones by releasing air from the disconnected valve.It was actually quite simple to do. I'll also be eliminating the feeding until things improve and just aerate at night.I'll get a new thermometer. Thanks again to everyone for their input. I'll keep you posted.

Here's a fellow SMB lover rooting for you! Keep us in the loop please.

Todays report: 102* air temp, wind 2-3 mph,sunny,water temp one foot down at 7pm was 92*,water temp at 17' was 85*. No floaters today(4th day in a row) Forecast for same tomorrow.

Well, good news! I have not lost any more fish. Surface temp remains at 92*. The bottom temp was at 82*. Interestly,I've talked with a number of pond owners in my area, and they have been losing fish also. The dying seems to have occured about the same time and also seems to have stopped at the same time.I've heard of everything from a half dozen BG to thousands of fish in a 12 ac. pond. They had 9 wheelbarrows full of everything from minnows to 8-9lb CC. Hopefully this is coming to an end.