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It's certainly not a waste of time, MRHELLO, but rather a point that I guess I, and probably some of the others who have been chipping in with thoughts for you, just don't want to see you hang up on when you could be moving your pond management plan forward instead. I totally understand about not wanting to be ripped off, but if you got GSF, you got GSF.

I think your point about just wanting to know if there's a different management plan or set of options is well made. I also believe that may be the first time we've heard you put it that way and I am hopeful that someone will come along and offer you management suggestions for HBG versus GSF. Then, armed with that specific info, you can begin to develop your overall plan and start executing when the time is right.

Gflo, I got that pic off of a labradoodle website and they claim it's a genuine labradoodle pup, I think somewhere around six or seven months old. The older dogs were a lot more curly, but I think the picture illustrated my point pretty well that the hybrid of two pure strains may resemble one of the parent species more than the other. And you're right about it being a cute dog - probably that's because it looks so much like a Lab! (Can you tell I'm heavily biased in favor of Labs?!)


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Those pics were posted by me from DIED on the assumption they were HBG. That was the question. After posting the pics the consensus among the fish id crew was that DIED had GSF not HBG.
















ewest #229039 07/31/10 05:50 AM
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Well I think that pretty much sums it up. I have GSF not HBG so my question is should I change the plan as to add BG since the GSF spawn more than the HBG?

Should I add more LMB?

Should I throw them on the bank?

Will GSF eat their own young?

Would GSF help keep the Crappie and LMB spawns under control?

Will the Crappie or CC eat many of the GSF?

Will they take to pellets and would this get them to eating size so I at least get something for what I paid.

What if anything can I requets from or do to the farm that sold me these?

Thanks

Last edited by MRHELLO; 07/31/10 06:07 AM.
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Originally Posted By: MRHELLO
I know I had asked for JHAPs input being the GSA ring leader but have not seen one note from him trying to convert me.

As I said in the PM between us, I was out of town.

If you desire my opinion here it is but keep in mind I'm JAIWAK not an expert:

The photos of your fish that you have posted seem to me to have a high percentage of GSF in them. People more expert than I have given you feedback related to their appearance.

IMHO and once again this is just my opinion, GSF are not the Satan spawn that will ruin your pond. Having been a member here for a few years I have found that most folks don't like GSF for two main reasons (1) in many ponds the GSF don't grow very large and (2) because of the size of their mouth and their aggression level they compete directly with juvenile predator fish (smaller LMB, probably most sized SMB, etc).

Some members here have been blessed with larger GSF. If you ever catch a GSF that weighs a pound or more you will laugh at BG. IMHO, pound for pound GSF are one of the hardest fighting sunfish. They will aggressively strike a larger lure and will fight like mad when hooked. The first time I caught a large GSF I was sure that I had caught a medium sized LMB. Originally my pond had only LMB, GSF and Bullhead. Later I stocked Gambusia, BG and RES. If I could reverse time I (which at present the GSA's time machine is not completely functional) I would not have added the BG. I would have added the Gam's and RES and managed the pond for LMB and GSF, but that is just me.

As for your questions from a non expert:

Should I add more LMB?
I don't recall the size of your pond and the number of predators that you have in the pond already and I'm no expert but I wouldn't just continue to throw more predators into your pond. Cull out the fish you don't want would be my idiotic advice.

Should I throw them on the bank?
Throw all other fish besides GSF onto the bank. GSF should be treated with dignity and respect. If you feel the need to cull GSF then raise the fish toward heaven and beg forgiveness prior to ending it's magnificent life.

Will GSF eat their own young?
LMB will eat LMB young and I'm betting GSF would as eat GSF young as well. It is after all survival of the fittest and GSF are good at surviving.

Would GSF help keep the Crappie and LMB spawns under control?
Many, many factors come into play as to whether or not one species is able to dominate another species. I think it would depend upon the ratio of GSF to Crappie and LMB that exist in the pond, the success of the recruitment of GSF versus the other fish, the amount of vegetation in the pond, etc, etc.

Will the Crappie or CC eat many of the GSF?
Make up your mind, do you want GSF to control Crappie or Crappie to control GSF. laugh

Will they take to pellets and would this get them to eating size so I at least get something for what I paid.
GSF will definitely eat pellets. DaveInElDorado added feed trained BG to his pond and began a feeding regiment. GSF immediately took to pellets. Observation at feeding time makes it easy to determine which fish (BG or GSF) is eating the pellets. From my observations BG seem to "attack" the pellets using a more shallow attack, GSF rocket up from the bottom hit the pellet and dive back down.

What if anything can I requets from or do to the farm that sold me these?
Have you contacted them and talked to them? Expressed your concern to them? Are they a reputable fish farm?

As I said I'm no expert but you wanted my feedback (probably because you don't know me very well, most folks here know better than to ask my advice laugh ) so there it is. Some of my response is tongue in cheek. No offense is intended. IMHO you are way, way over worrying this issue. Take a deep breath and relax.

It has been my observation that new pond owners tend to way over worry about their pond. Read some of my first posts and you'll find that I did as well. As long as your income doesn't depend upon the pond then there is no need (again IMHO) to over worry these issues. Decide what fish you desire and begin to manage for them.

Nature has a way of imposing it's own plan upon you so if you don't learn to relax somewhat then you'll go insane.

Trust me, I know.


JHAP
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I know it seems like I am making a much bigger deal out of this then I should, but I think it is because this one going to be the first pond I stocked and was looking forward to the spring and fall of 2011 as I figured I would be able to take a few out then to eat.

Well I first went with the plan that was given to me which seems to be too many kinds of fish and too many total fish for my pond.

Then it appeared that I was sold the wrong fish, which I may or may not have been.

Last the GSF could made it to the pond on their own and not sure how or why.

So I am sure everything I put in there was eaten with the exception of the CC.

Had I known they were in there I would have just put in a few CC, some LMB and probably still a few Crappie as they are one of my favorites. I know from reading on here the Crappie is not recommended and requires much management, but I figured since we like to eat fish and enjoy fishing I could give them a shot. I figured if they appeared to stop growing or too many in the pond I would start keeping as many as I could to eat.

Anyway since you are a GSF fan (which is why I wanted you input as well) how are you managing yours and is that you main fish you work around?

Thanks

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Sparkplug's HBG - 1 lb --- female at that.



Last edited by ewest; 04/26/11 03:10 PM.















ewest #256050 04/23/11 09:43 PM
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Congratulations! Now for the 1 1/4# one. wink


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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Originally Posted By: dave in el dorado ca
schroeder, i cant speak to the deteriorating genetic offspring of HBG, and how these will affect yer BG and RES.

all i can tell you is that i am trying pure (well probably as close to pure as anybody can get) pure BG, pure RES, and pure GSF in the same pond at the same time the results of which wont be known for at least a year.....will be watching and keeping folks posted.

as of now, all three are "swimmingly" co-habitating. all three have or are successfully spawning.

i have relatively clear water, so cross breeding should be kept to a minimum.

my goal of course is to maintain all three lepomis species, and grow them to large sizes, and not worry too much about Fx offspring....its a science experiement wink

one thing to keep in mind is that any of the three can cross breed with the others, so no matter what, depending on the kind or clarity of your water and pond structure/weeds, you mix the species you risk getting any type of Fx offspring....some really cool, others not so cool.


Dave do you have an update on this experiment for us?

Thanks

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Via Bruce.

Here's a couple of pictures from my backyard in the last couple of days.

Me, ( Bruce Condello) with a bluegill X green sunfish hybrid. 12 inches long and unweighed, but possibly between 24 and 32 ounces.



My Dad with a big hybrid bluegill. A little shorter, but much stockier. Clearly over a pound.



--------------------------------------------------
By Bob Lusk and EW.

Likely - Reciprocal cross mBG X fGSF - fish No. 2 and mGSF X fBG - fish No.1.





Last edited by ewest; 05/01/12 09:59 AM.















ewest #306925 09/19/12 08:51 AM
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sprkplug's HBG

















ewest #306934 09/19/12 10:26 AM
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Bruce, I remember the problems you had with Ken Holyoak. Did any fish live?
The fish your dad is holding is a dead ringer for a mature GG.

Last edited by Bill Duggan; 09/19/12 12:58 PM.
ewest #306953 09/19/12 03:39 PM
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Nice observation Bill and I agree. I have to start paying more attention.
















ewest #306958 09/19/12 05:04 PM
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What aspect/s of Bruce's dad's fish resembles the GG?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
ewest #306968 09/19/12 08:30 PM
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Georgia Giants
























ewest #306979 09/19/12 09:55 PM
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Thanks ewest. I have to say though, that I don't see it. I believe that the first photo posted by ewest shows female HBG, while the next two show probable males. The fish Bruce's dad is holding looks like a male also, with dominant BG traits...at least to me. The fish in ewest's photos appear to lean more toward a redear as far as color and body shape goes, but that's just my interpretation.

Factor in an allowance for coloration variances due to environment, the likelihood of reciprocal crosses, and the possibility of multiple generations, (F2-F3's), and I see lots of room for diversity without the need for GG.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I thought RES hybrid too when I saw the pictures.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
ewest #307005 09/20/12 06:23 AM
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I raised Georgia Giants so have first hand knowledge, plus know Bruce attemped to stock them. That is why i think this fish might be a GG, but other posters could be right also.

Fisrt thing I noticed is how round the body is, classic mature GG.

ewest #307006 09/20/12 06:40 AM
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Bill, I don't have any experience with the GG, so I don't have a basis for comparison. I figured the round shape of a HBG was influenced by it's BG heritage... MBG x FGSF might equate to a fish with a more circular profile, while a reciprocal cross MGSF x FBG may produce a more elongated fish.

These are from one of my ponds, and I can state with certainty that they are not GG. They are developing the rounded shape you speak of:







"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
ewest #307007 09/20/12 06:48 AM
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Thanks, I would have said those are GG also. Nice fish.

BTW for those who do not know Ken Holyoak passed away a couple years ago

Last edited by Bill Duggan; 09/20/12 06:50 AM.
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SP yours are classic HBG. I know that the pics I posted are GG as they came directly from Ken Holyoak. GG are a specific type of HBG - we just don't know the mix (trade secret).
















ewest #307019 09/20/12 10:04 AM
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I wonder if we will ever know what GG really are?

ewest #307020 09/20/12 10:08 AM
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Thanks ewest, my fish are definitely classic HBG. I can see a difference in the photos you posted, I just don't see one in Bruce's photos. To me, both of Bruce's photos display classic HBG as well. That's why I was curious as to what was seen to suggest otherwise.

If we eliminate the variances due to reciprocal crosses, and discount coloration as a steadfast method of identification due to differing water clarity from one BOW to another, what are we left with to differentiate by? It would appear that a rounded shape is not indicative of GG, so I must be missing something. What is it? I'll be wondering the rest of the day now! grin


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
ewest #307026 09/20/12 10:41 AM
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I put HBG in my pond in April and they're doing excellent. Showing great growth. I always thought the GG pics I looked at looked like HBG. In my pond, there seems to be some variation in color from fish to fish. Some look like sparkplug's fish and some look like the GGs posted above.

Last edited by Aaron Prickett; 09/20/12 10:44 AM.
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I was told by an employee of Ken's that I knew fairly well that GG is a cross between five different species of fish and only Ken and his son Jason know the exact cross. I'm not saying this is true and the person who told me was repeating what they were told, so take that for what it is worth.

ewest could someone run a DNA test on a GG as get the mix if not the cross

Last edited by Bill Duggan; 09/20/12 01:25 PM.
ewest #307042 09/20/12 01:11 PM
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Bill that is conceivably possible. Problem is there has been so little genetic testing on Lepomis species (BG , RES , GSF , PS , LES etc)that there is nothing to compare against. It would be a start from scratch effort. My guess is that no university would do this as it would be a long term and very expensive effort with no $ payback. Heck they don't even have the human genome mapped fully so Lepomis gene mapping is a long way off.

SP said "If we eliminate the variances due to reciprocal crosses, and discount coloration as a steadfast method of identification due to differing water clarity from one BOW to another,"

I look at all available morphology including color , pattern , body shape , physiology etc . That includes a lot of things , many we can't see from a single pic.

Bruce's dad fish looks like every adult GG I have seen. There does not seem to be much variation in them (GG) like you see in BG , GSF and their crosses. They (GG) are round and have a opercula flap like that and have that color /scale pattern and fins shaped and colored that way. Big mouth with blueish streaks.

What I can't tell you is how far off from that cross is a true GG. The mix could occur naturally (or close)under the righ conditions. It probably is not a pure (laugh) GG or from Ken but I bet if you did the genetic testing it would be close.




Last edited by ewest; 09/20/12 01:41 PM.















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