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ewest #127040 07/30/08 01:32 PM
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It's got that lumpy huge Lepomis look.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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that thing is grotesque!


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Nice pics of documented pumpkinseed hybrids - via Cecil

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=141748&fpart=1


Pumpkinseed X Northern Bluegill



Pumpkinseed X Central Longear



Pumpkinseed X Redear



Pumpkinseed X Green Sunfish



Pumpkinseed X Red Spotted Sunfish



By :
Dr. James Wetzel
Bluegill Cultigen Project
Aquaculture Research
Department of Agriculture and Environmental Sciences
Lincoln University
Jefferson City, MO
















ewest #141833 12/17/08 03:03 PM
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FWIW, one thing that I find particularly compelling about these pictures is the PS X RES looks to me exactly like a pure RES.

Maybe just more evidence of the similarity between these two species.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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 Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
FWIW, one thing that I find particularly compelling about these pictures is the PS X RES looks to me exactly like a pure RES.

I rarely deem to argue with the Master, but I find the red opercule border less extensive than on a pure RES - more like the little dab of red on a PS. And to me, the side pattern on a pure RES is almost organized into vertical bars. The side pattern on the PSxRES appears completely disorganized.

 Quote:
Maybe just more evidence of the similarity between these two species.

For sure, as called out by ewest's Centrarchidae Family Tree:



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I will look for info on the PS X RES cross like viability , morphology , ect and report back. I will add that I don't recall seeing any info on that cross.I will look for info on the PS X RES cross like viability , morphology , ect and report back. I will add that I don't recall seeing any info on that cross.
















ewest #141892 12/17/08 10:56 PM
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It appears that BG , PS and GSF are common crosses but that RES and PS crosses are not common because in the wild there populations do not overlap like those of BG , GSF and PS. PS and RES are closely related genetically. Will keep looking but I don't doubt that RES X PS are possible due to the genetic closeness.

Thought you might get a laugh out of the quip below - one of the writers was female. \:o - \:D



HYBRIDIZATION AND INTROGRESSION AMONG SPECIES

OF SUNFISH (LEPOMIS): ANALYSIS BY MITOCHONDRIAL

DNA AND ALLOZYME MARKERS

JOHN C. AVISE AND NANCY C. SAUNDERS



Female Lepomis also have behavioral predispositions

toward prosmiscuity, since observations indicate that “many females may

visit one nest and one female may visit several nests” (BREDER 1936). Our data

suggest that absence of conspecific pairing partners and mating stimuli for

females of rarer species may be an important factor in increasing the likelihood

of interspecific hybridization.
















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 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
The side pattern on the PSxRES appears completely disorganized.



Disorganized is my middle name.

Refer to my signature line.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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When I stocked my pond with bluegill I may have messed up. I put red ear, coppernose and hybrid bluegill back in January 2007. Last summer I put some regular bluegill. With this combination I understand now that the hybrid will breed and can go back to green sunfish. If this is the case have I messed up my pond?



mikel #200047 01/20/10 10:22 PM
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It's not messed up as long as you maintain plenty of predators (bass) to keep the green sunfish thinned out. If the bass population gets low, the GSF will probably take off, at which point you have a problem. But as long as you have plenty of bass, no problem.

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stocking numbers would help, but most have said that after a few years, there is no sign of the hybrids or GSF as the bluegill will snuff them out with numbers. I would just enjoy the agressive nature of the hybrids, and the, the the, green sunfish....there, I said it, JHAP and DIED.


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I'm not sure what your goals are but your original coppernose will also cross with the hybrids. You can bet your bottom dollar that sunfish of any kind will over spawn and stunt without bass as a predator. As said above, the GSF only spawn annually and won't last forever.

You haven't messed up anything.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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For about the 400th time here, HBG cannot turn back into GSF.


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You should be ok. This assumes you did not stock lots more HBG than BG and CNBG. First you did not list GSF as a stocked species so there are no GSF in the pond. HBG cannot turn into GSF. They can reproduce and possibly back-cross with the BG and CNBG. You do not want the HBG X HBG offspring in the pond but they would only be very small numbers. The more the HBG cross with BG and CNBG the more the GSF genes in the offspring are diluted. Because BG reproduce in far greater numbers than HBG over time the GSF genes from the HBG are diluted to the point of being irrelevant.
















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 Originally Posted By: burgermeister
I would just enjoy the agressive nature of the hybrids, and the, the the, green sunfish....there, I said it, JHAP and DIED.


Improving the universe, one person at a time.

We are the GSA.




JHAP
~~~~~~~~~~

"My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives."
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 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
For about the 400th time here, HBG cannot turn back into GSF.


So true, but, the theory of relativity says that when two of the hybrids cross, a number will look similar to the parents,,,a number will look more like the 1st gen. parent of 1 species, and some more like the other 1st gen. parent.

Yes, no, whacked?


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If not much trouble does anyone have a good picture of each bluegill. I know the redear and think I know the coppernose by those beauties that Mr George has shown us. I'm not sure of the difference of hybrid or regular bluegill & wouldn't know the GSF if it bit me.

I like what each of you have said especially about hybrid not evolving into GSF. Thanks guys for your input, hope you have some pic's of the blue gill families.



mikel #200112 01/21/10 03:17 PM
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There are several threads on here reference sunfish ID... The most commonly referred to one is in the archives section:

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482

Also, look at the beginning of this thread. It dates back a couple years with tons of pictures and what people think each fish is...

I will say this, sunfish ID for a person who isn't familiar with them can be very tough. Even I have to slow down and take a closer look every now and then. Throw in the fact that sunfish often hybridize in ponds naturally and you really can get your head spinning! Often times you know what species are in the pond, so guesstimating the hybrid is easier...

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Here are a couple outside Pond Boss links that I like for IDing sunfish and/or other species:

http://www.tnfish.org/FishIdentificationID_TWRA/TWRA_Sunfish_Identification_Key.htm

http://bio.slu.edu/mayden/sunfish/sun_key/1.html

http://www.tnfish.org/PhotoGalleryFish_TWRA/FishPhotoGallery_TWRA/TWRAFishPhotoGallery.htm

http://www.wiscfish.org/fishid/ This link is good as it gives a lot of hybrid photos when showing the pure adult species.

Sunfish family tree:




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ewest #200744 01/25/10 09:30 PM
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Excellent references to sunfish ID, I bookmarked this topic, Thanks guys.



ewest #228971 07/30/10 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: ewest
DIED's HBG from the link below.

Fish 1


Fish 3




http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000485;p=3#000043



Ok now these resemble mine alot so is there still a possibility mine could be HBG and Not GSF?

Cody Post script, added from Ewest's July 30. 2010 post below regarding the above pictures: ""Those pics were posted by me from DIED on the assumption they were HBG. That was the question. After posting the pics the consensus among the fish id crew was that DIED had GSF not HBG.""
I agree with ewest and some others that these fish from DIED have many characteristics of typical green sunfish (GSF). I do not consider them HBG.


Attached Images
Big HBG.jpg
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Yeah, I think that's been pretty well covered - HBG are very often a cross of BG x GSF. THEY WILL HAVE SOME GSF CHARACTERISTICS! That does not make them GSF. It's like the labradoodle dog (why anyone would do this to a perfectly good Lab I'll never know! laugh ):



This one looks a lot like a Lab, but it's not. Remember that just because a HBG may look like a GSF, it's not. Subsequent generations may take on more characteristics of GSF, but they aren't GSF.

Stop sweating this one, MRHELLO. Seriously. I would really doubt you were sold straight GSF (had you been, JHAP and the GSA would have made a run on the hatchery and bought up the entire stock! grin ). You have spent an awful lot of time worrying about that and I, as a total rank amateur, just think it's wasted effort for you. You've gotten a bunch of great suggestions for how to move forward with the pond, so focus your energies there and I really think you'll be much happier as you start seeing progress versus spinning your wheels over the HBG issue. Now onward, friends!


Todd La Neve

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Originally Posted By: Todd3138
Yeah, I think that's been pretty well covered - HBG are very often a cross of BG x GSF. THEY WILL HAVE SOME GSF CHARACTERISTICS! That does not make them GSF. It's like the labradoodle dog (why anyone would do this to a perfectly good Lab I'll never know! laugh ):



This one looks a lot like a Lab, but it's not. Remember that just because a HBG may look like a GSF, it's not. Subsequent generations may take on more characteristics of GSF, but they aren't GSF.



That isn't a labradoodle either! That dog looks like a mutt, not a labradoodle (hybrid), nor a pure bred lab or poodle (unless the hair is cut short in the picture. Hard to tell if they had been groomed fairly recently, and my eyes fail me sometimes).

Hybrid x Hybrid does not = a hybrid in the vast majority of cases, mostly yields mutts.

Hybrid x pure bred will only with low probability = a hybrid (mostly yields "mutts"... Just a numbers game at this point)

Pure bred x pure bred = hybrid

It is statistically improbable that a hybrid would revert back to either of its parental phenotypes except in a few freak of nature incidents, which pretty much means it will not happen as i understand it.

That dog is adorable by the way.


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I know I had asked for JHAP’s input being the GSA ring leader but have not seen one note from him trying to convert me.

I know I should move on but it is hard to when there is a possibility I was ripped off. I would like to think even if I was sold GSF it was not on purpose. But since most of my fish do resemble GSF I have a concern. I am sure that each time these are crossed they may be different.

But considering a member on here got his HBG at the same place as I did and they look nothing alike that is what concerns me.

Also the fact that I seem to have more fry than one I would expect from a HBG.

I think I need to just wait this thing out and see what happens by this time next year as I will probably be surprised once my LMB get bigger. I just want to make sure I should take the same approach rather the fish are HBG or GSF.

If there is a different approach I want to consider them and go from there.

Thank you everyone for your help on this, and sorry to waste everyone’s time on an issue that is probably not a big deal to most members.

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