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#224302 06/30/10 10:23 PM
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Well, I had apparent success with the cutrine plus treatment as the visible FA is pretty much gone from the surface. Of course, the watermeal has now taken over and in a span of a week, is enough to cover the entire surface of the 1/2 acre pond when it is fully spread out. It's a thin layer and, normally, the wind has bunched it together such that at least 1/3 of the pond is clear.

I realize watermeal is a prolific grower, but suspect that with elimination of much of the FA, the excess nutrients are going to towards this nuisance.

I was planning on tilapia, but that did not work out, so now on to chemical options, much as I do not want to do so.

From my reading here, fluoridone based products may be the best/only reliable answer. I understand this to mean products such as Sonar and Whitecap, both more expensive than the tilapia were going to be.

My concern is this. I have a lot of chara, sago (I am pretty sure), and American pondweed. I don't particularly want to lose all those, but believe that Sonar or Whitecap will probably kill much of those populations as well. I don't necessarily want to kill all of the remaining vegetation, but if that is the cost to rid myself of watermeal, or at least make a serious dent in it, then I am resigned to this undesired "shock and awe" approach. I also realize that a massive DO crash could happen if this is not carefully managed.

So, my out loud musings are as follows, and I would really value any feedback the gang may have, as well as viable alternatives to chemicals.

* Could I use a minimal amount of chemical over a series of applications to gradually use a full dose to hit the stuff but avoid a DO crash?

* Am I correct in believing the two products I mentioned will likely kill every form of vegetation in the pond?

* Are there products that will work with some level of specificity for the watermeal only?

* Are there any other options short of manual removal (for which I don't realistically have the time) that I should first consider before going nuclear on this friggin' stuff?

As an aside, I am planning on adding 2 GC to the small pond this fall so they'll be in place and ready to start munching in the spring. I hope that will address some of the issues. I'm also planning to put 4 in my larger pond, which I'm not otherwise really managing right now, to work on the curly leaf pondweed that I discovered this year (it's all totally gone from sight now, by the way. Very interesting how it dies off so quickly) and any other stuff there just to keep that pond attractive even though it's only half full.

As well, I'm hoping Rex will be able to bring me tilapia next year so I can those in the mix as well. I am really sorry it didn't work this year, especially after seeing Scott's/esshup's pictures of the beautiful fish he got from Rex. I really would prefer to use natural methods to control the vegetation, while also working on eliminating or controlling the source of the excessive nutrients that are contributing to the problems.

Thanks for your thoughts!


Todd La Neve

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Just got off the phone with a local fish farm owner and he said that koi will eat watermeal and duckweed. Anyone able to confirm or refute this? I've never seen that mentioned here as far as I know and would be inclined to trust this resource and all the great folks here before others.


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Don't count on any fish other than tilapia eating the stuff.
















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Todd, flouridone will kill the sago and other plants before it kills watermeal. Apply it all apply or slowly still will kill based on ppb level high enough to kill watermeal it will kill all vegetation. The grass carp due little good on watermeal. Tilpaia do well.

My sugestion in your case of saving the other veg is Diquat. It kills the heck outta of the watermeal, will you eradicate this year probably not. However when blown thick a mixture of water and 4-6 ozs Reward or similiar will kill the heck out of what it touches in a mist spray. Do this as needed to keep at bay. Next year hit again as it shows and combo with tilapia and might rid of.

summary- easier method pour in a few ounces of whitecap, but for your goals reward.


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Originally Posted By: ewest
Don't count on any fish other than tilapia eating the stuff.


Thanks, Eric. That's what I needed to hear and it certainly supports the complete absence of folks here saying koi do the trick.


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Originally Posted By: Greg Grimes
Todd, flouridone will kill the sago and other plants before it kills watermeal. Apply it all apply or slowly still will kill based on ppb level high enough to kill watermeal it will kill all vegetation. The grass carp due little good on watermeal. Tilpaia do well.

My sugestion in your case of saving the other veg is Diquat. It kills the heck outta of the watermeal, will you eradicate this year probably not. However when blown thick a mixture of water and 4-6 ozs Reward or similiar will kill the heck out of what it touches in a mist spray. Do this as needed to keep at bay. Next year hit again as it shows and combo with tilapia and might rid of.

summary- easier method pour in a few ounces of whitecap, but for your goals reward.


Great info, Greg! Thanks a ton for sharing those insights. I'm hoping the tilapia come through next year because I'd really prefer the natural approach for sure.

Let me make sure I am understanding your suggestion here. Basically, the fluoridone will kill all the other stuff but is less likely to touch the watermeal unless the chemical is in a really high concentration. Instead, Diquat is what will hit the watermeal more effectively. Is Diquat the brand name, or is that an active chemical ingredient? Someone, maybe DD1, suggested Diquat in another post, but I must have misunderstood the application was for watermeal and thought he was referencing FA instead.

As for mixing the Diquat, are you saying to do it in whatever the proper concentration is, then also add some Reward? If so, is that geared towards the watermeal, or will that also kill other vegetation?

As I mentioned, I do want to try to keep some of the vegetation in there, but I want that watermeal out in the worst way. If I have to sacrifice some other plants to achieve that goal, then so be it, but I'd love to save what I can and put some grass carp in there to work on those other things naturally.

Thanks for taking time to consider these questions, Greg. Again, I really appreciate the input.


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Greg's right on the money. First, guy wants to sell you some koi. They won't eat it, almost no carp will. Second, it ain't like duckweed, it's way harder to kill. If you go slow release fluridone it will be the last thing to die, if it does at all. I think you are better served going spray mist reward on surface emerged watermeal. Bear in mind it will comeback, but at least you might save desired vegetation. Retreat when, not if, it reemerges. Add tilipia.

Or sterilize pond with fluridone. It's slow release so odds are you are not going to crash either way.

Diquat is the active ingrediant in Reward and Weedtrine. Contact spray whatever bottle says, just on surface watermeal and sparingly. You can always hit it again. I'd hit it with a mist, not a stream. Mix in a surfactant to get it to stick to watermeal.

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Does Diquat = Reward, or are we talking about mixing the two for a synergistic effect of the best qualities of each?

Thanks, PF!


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Originally Posted By: Todd3138
Does Diquat = Reward, or are we talking about mixing the two for a synergistic effect of the best qualities of each?

Thanks, PF!


Diquat is active ingrediant in Reward and Weedtrine D. If you want fast results mix in same amount Cutrine Plus or Scythe. And make sure 1/2 or so of surfactant. This should be super fast death, then respray whatever you missed and wait.

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I think I generally understand what a surfactant does, but where does one find a surfactant?

This link appears to give a pretty good explanation of what I think you and Greg just said, PF. The only thing I'm not seeing here is mention of a surfactant. Again, how is that used in terms of ratio?

I'm also wondering this - the articles I'm reading all seem to talk about using x number of gallons of the chemicals diluted by so many gallons of water. However, that appears to be a treatment designed to treat an entire pond as opposed to spot treating as I would be doing. I only have a small sprayer at this point, 1.5 gallons, and really don't want to put the money into a big hoss sprayer right now.

So, to fill a 1.5 gallon sprayer, what sort of amounts am I looking at? As a complete math retard, I need help on figuring out how to divide all these figures into ounces and whatnot so the right ratio will fit in my puny sprayer!

Thanks for the help, guys!


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OK, right from the Reward label for you Todd. Spot treatment, 2 quarts per 100 gal. .5% Solution. So in your 1 1/2 gal sprayer it should hold almost 200 oz. Just put in 1 oz of Reward. Then same info, on Reward label, .25% wetting agent. Surfactant, Greg has them on his website for a good price plus pondboss discount. So 1/2 oz. Put both of those in your sprayer first. Then fill it up with normal tap water. Treat maybe 50% of the densest material. Comeback in two weeks and finish off the rest. If you have an adjustable nozzle, mist it or spray mist. Your object is to just get everything wet, not dripping wet, not soaking wet. Not spraying everywhere, in the air, on no weed water, in your own face. Just on the plants you want dead. If you want much faster results mix in 1 oz of Cutrine Plus or Scythe. I can't make it much simpler unless I come do it myself.

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Legal Disclaimer: The Pond Frog is not responsible for pond crashes, boat crashes, trainwrecks and party crashers. Pond owners death from incompetence, herbicide misuse, abuse or overuse. Always follow all herbicides manufacturers (Syngenta) instructions.

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PF is right. On the surfactant or adjuvant be sure it will cut the waxy coating the WM. Several kinds will.



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Originally Posted By: The Pond Frog
I can't make it much simpler unless I come do it myself.


Haven't you always wanted to come see Wild, Wonderful West Virginia? laugh

Thanks a million, PF. You made that so simple that even I can understand it!

I see that I can buy Weedtrine at the local Tractor Supply store and it appears that is also a Diquat based product. I assume it will work the same way as Reward, which is not carried at TSC.

As for the surfactant, should that be available to me somewhere locally? I'd certainly prefer to patronize Greg, but if there's any way possible, I want to get the first treatment in tomorrow as I'll be gone again for the next 3 - 4 days. Nothing would make me happier than to return home and find that the watermeal had started dying already while I was gone. I just don't know what other sort of store would carry a product like that, not necessarily the name of a store, but the type of store. Maybe a landscaping business?

In any event, if I can't find it, I shall place an order with Greg tomorrow and get started on the treatments beginning next week.

Of course, I naturally release Pond Frog from any and all liability for DO crashes, fish crashes, party crashes, vehicular crashes, hard drive crashes, and the like!

Again, thanks a bunch for the guidance here. Once I get the surfactant nailed down, this cocktail is going in the water and I will post pics along the way!


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TSC should have the surficant as well. At least the ones around here do. It's in the same area as their bulk (1 to 2.5 gallon) herbacides, and in the local store, it's up on the top shelf right next to the dye that is used to tint the herbacide to show where it was applied.

Surficant

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Originally Posted By: esshup
TSC should have the surficant as well. At least the ones around here do. It's in the same area as their bulk (1 to 2.5 gallon) herbacides, and in the local store, it's up on the top shelf right next to the dye that is used to tint the herbacide to show where it was applied.

Surficant


Sweet! Thanks, Scott! I searched the site but didn't find this product - evidently wasn't looking for the right things. Appreciate the help. Now to get this thing done tomorrow and see what awaits me Monday evening!


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man yall are quick.

Todd, 2 things I need to clarify.
1. weedtrine is not reward it is a much weaker version of diquat.
We sell reward or redwing same thing different maker- both 37.3% Diquat dibromide. This link even has app rates. http://lakework.com/cart/index.php?p=product&id=123&parent=1
wedtrine - 8.5% diquat- so youre buying water and would have to mix at much higher rate. If you get it I say add 13-26 ozs/gal (see below) to get eh same diquat concentration. I understand if you buy it local to get started no biggie but usually it ends up costing much more. Plus long shelf life and it is great to burn down most any plants around the property.
2. the rates. I use the label for overall amount of product dispersed 1-2 gals/weeded acre but what does that mean? When watermeal is finely spread over the pond it can be an acre, etc. I have used the method I describe for years and with our crew it is used pretty much daily. Just yesterday Mike treated a pond that I wished he choose flouridone but at 8 acre could not afford. Mike said before leaving the lake much of the watermeal was turning white.
The ratio in our low alkalinity water is 3-6 ozs/reward per gallon a good mist will kill anything it touches, watermeal or submersed grass below the surface is still concentrated.
At 1/2 ozs/gal you are spending less than $1 sounds great but tons of work and for resistant watermeal does not work well especially with watermeal blown and stacked up. Go with 3-6 ozs/gal still not much money and your time is worth money. I gotta talk guys down all the time from wanting to use much more than this that too is not necessary. Get my point you can spray and spray and spray at oz if you want but a god mist with 3-6 will kill more easily. Youre not going to get it all in one spray anyways. Spray again in a day or so as you see some green while other is white.

Im just saying I have eradicated watermeal many times with repeat applications but with the se methods not the lesser amount and yes PF good call a good surfactant is well worth adding to the mix at 1 ozs/gal. I cocktail copper all the time but that is to kill algae on the surface of submersed grass like sago with watermeal is does not serve a purpose.


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Great info, Greg, especially about the concentration differences. Exactly what I would expect from you! That is tremendous detail and I really appreciate you sharing with me. Your thinking makes perfect sense about multiple treatments and a slightly heavier concentration of chemicals to get the job done. I had figured that it would take an ongoing effort, into next year as well, to get rid of this crud.

Let me ask you this - I don't want to kill everything else in the pond, though wouldn't mind getting rid of some of it as I've already mentioned in earlier posts. When you are talking about 3 - 6 oz. of Reward doing just that, should I consider a smaller ratio, perhaps 2 - 4 oz. for a more limited effect? Or would doing so reduce the effectiveness on the watermeal? Again, as I've already posted, if I have to sacrifice this year's crop of plants to get rid of the watermeal, I'm in. I just want that stuff gone and I suspect the other weeds will grow back in time.

And to further clarify, would I then want to go with the low end concentration - ~13 oz. - of Weedtrine? Would that be enough to kill the watermeal but spare some of the other plants?

I am going to see if the local TSC carries the Weedtrine (the website says it's available) and surfactant. If they do, I'm going to go that route this morning just so I can get started and maybe see some progress by the time I get back to town Monday evening. What you are saying makes perfect sense about having the stronger chemicals available in the long run, and I will come to you for the purchase of those things. Might be a few weeks, but I'll be in touch.

Thanks again for all the info.


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Greg's right, Reward is a better value just because of the % active ingrediant. Weedtrine D is weak 8 1/2 vs. ov 37% Reward. You just want the Diquat, water is a filler you get from your tap. Monsanto and Roundup just torch people on that scam. If you use Weedtrine D you might want to go 4 oz. and 1/2 oz surfactant. Get about the same % active ingrediant and stickum. The reason I'd go light concentrate first spray is I would try to hit the stacked or thicker areas first. That's can't miss. There is going to be stuff under the surface you are just not going to get unless you saturate. Plus, you can tell if the lower concentrate will work for your application. I am fairly certain it will, but with watermeal, you never know. You can always double or triple up next go round. Just the Weedtrine, not the surfactant.

I am not concerned about $, it's not that much, but usually my first application is per manufacturer's guidelines so I don't go way out there saturating a body of water with too much Diquat in this case. If you can bunch up spraying and don't want to wait a couple of weeks between applications I'd blend in a Cutrine Plus or Scythe. Then you can go hit it again in less than 1 week. Without going with Fluridone you will be spraying quite a bit anyway. But may save your desired vegetation. In my experieince I would really just Fluridone the entire deal and replant whatever plants I wanted back. Just for watermeal, no matter what the cost. How much is your time worth? There is a good chance you could be spraying 6 times or more, and even a slighter chance the Diquat is not all that effective. Make sure you use stickum. Where Greg and I disagree is concentrate % of active ingrediant. .5 % vs 3%. If I wanted better coverage of death I would just spray more of light concentrate. Especially when I am not under the gun with time constraints and know most certainly I will be respraying.

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Todd, you will not kill the plants on the other side of the pond for sure, in the immediate area probably not either. Diquat is a contact herbicide so it has to be fairly concentrated to kill the plant. If the sago is directly under the watermeal might kill it but several feet away not concentrated enough with water dilution.

The higher amount is not going to kill the plants unless around, use the lowest amount I recommend and see below. Good luck my man. Watermeal is my biggest fear for clients.

PF, we disagree on app for sure. As you state what is your time worth. You are putting the same amount of actually product if you spray more of less concentrate. Im within the manufacture recommendations. Also if we are being paid quite well for application I want to make an impact and not have to come back out on their dime to treat again. I hope you see my thinking. In the case of Todd we agree diquat and multiple treatments way to go since saving plants. However he also is clear he does not live there so I want him to get more bang for his time. Still cost is minimal even if going with the high rate of application.


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Todd, just a word of warning. I sprayed Diquat in one end of the pond 2 days ago, because I saw a strand of Milfoil. I wanted to get it before it spread. The wind was blowing a bit, and I thought it wouldn't be a problem. I had the sprayer set on stream. Even so, there was enough mist blown by the wind to kill plants on shore 2 days later. I have 2 dead/dying patches that are about 10' wide by 15' long on shore.


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PF, Greg, and Scott, thanks for the clarifications here. I see where both of you pond pros are coming from in your approaches and see the value in each.

In my case, while I don't live at the farm, I am there regularly as it's pretty close to my home. I don't mind going out regularly and continuing to apply the treatments. However, I want to start making a dent in this stuff so that I can enjoy the pond again before late fall gets here!

The local stores had only Weedtrine D, so I went with that. TSC was out of its normal surfactant, but I found a product at Southern States (Adjuvant) that I picked up. I'm heading out there in just a bit and will mix up the cocktail as you guys have suggested, going with a middle ground so that I see some results by the next time I check the pond on Monday or Tuesday.

Scott, thanks for that info on overspray. I'll definitely keep that in mind!

PF, I kind of like the idea of wiping out all the plants and then replanting something I want, but I'm probably not quite ready to go that route just from a time and resource standpoint. I love the idea of some of the things I've been reading here on the forum such as the water hyacinth, lillies, and the like. It would be awesome to have attractive and desirable vegetation that didn't fall under the term "weeds" out there!

In any event, I'll document this process with pics so others can see whatever the impact ends up being.

Guys, again, thanks for all your input on this. I reiterate the phenomenal value that is represented by this forum and its members. Y'all are the best!


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good luck Todd. Yes scott good advice overspray can kill other terrestrial plants. Like I said we have quite a few clients use the diquat on their land as well.


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Well, the initial spraying was done several hours ago and I'm now out of town till Monday evening when I'll check back in on it. I was only able to reach out about 10 - 12 feet with my sprayer and had to use it in stream fashion due to the breeze that was present. Misting just would not have worked. The good thing about the breeze was that it bunched up the watermeal a bit so I was able to reach perhaps 20 - 25% of it. There is just so much that I could access all of it without getting out in my canoe, which I will probably do the next time I dose it. I did use the full gallon+ on it, though, and went over the entire treated area twice, so I'm hoping to see some results. There will probably be some dead terrestrial plants as there was still some "blowback" even with the sprayer on a stream setting. No biggie, though.

I used a mix of 1 gallon water, 10 oz. Weedtrine D, 1 oz. Cutrine D, and roughly 1/2 oz. of Adjuvant. We'll see how it works and I'll post before and after pics if there's anything worth sharing.

Thanks again, guys! I appreciate the help and advice!


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Todd, Koi will only eat WM if there is nothing else there.....plus the Koi will pose a big problem later on when they spawn!



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Todd so you sprayed 12 gallons of mix? Man see that to me seems like way too much even with weedtrine. I thought with your size pond and coverage a 3 gallon mix should be plenty. I must spray faster. I hope with that much money spent you see major difference.


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No, only one gallon of total mix, Greg. Not sure if I typed something incorrectly or not, but just used the gallon of water and 10 oz. of the Weedtrine, kind of a compromise between what you and Pond Frog were suggesting. I'll adjust as needed when I see what effect this treatment has. Yeah, 12 gallons of Weedtrine in a small pond would sure be a bunch, huh?!


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Thanks, Rex. Makes sense. I guess if I didn't have anything else to eat, I'd probably eat watermeal at some point, too! And I've already demonstrated the hazards of reproducing with my own kids!


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The wind may have helped you in some ways, and hurt you in others. It's good to get it stacked, but since you are using contact herbicide you may have missed a lot under the surface. I would not have sprayed twice in the same day. But the good part is probably most of the herbicide will end up where it is supposed to, on a lot of mealweed. There are two things I try to put off in the wind, burning and spraying.

Greg, I know whatyou are saying, and I have gone above manufacturers specs when I am under the gun to get something done. But when you have a DIY like Todd on his own pond taking his time I think it is best to start off light. Otherwise you will never know how effective the lower concentrate is. In most applications I tend to overkill, but when I know I am repsraying, I start off light just to see what the minimum I can get away with. Why spray away with a 3-4% when .5 might do just about the same? Especially with a contact herbicide. It is kind of like the no pond is the same deal. No herbicide application is the same. If you start off heavy, you may just be wasting product and money without even knowing it. Takes the same amount of time to spray either way. The kicker is the excess active ingrediant in the water. Diquat is not exactly a selective herbicide, as has been mentioned here. Collateral damage is not a good thing here.

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Todd ok I read it to read you used the entire gallon of weedtrine thus my confusion. Whew I thought I created a monster.

PF not wanting to argue we are just discussing and we both know that. However I do not feel Im going any higher than label directions for active ingredient- just mixing differently. The amount of active ingredient of diquat is not even close to max dose with the amount he is applying. I look at overall active ingredient in the water and based on watermeal experiecne using 1/2 oz of reward per gallon wil result in pretty much nada. so...higher mixing rate but overall less than 2 gallons per weeded acre. I hear you though about starting slow.


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So I got back to town today and went to the farm. No change in the watermeal was evident, though I would guess some of it was impacted by the mix I used.

This time I mixed a gallon of water with 20 oz. Weedtrine D, 1 oz. Adjuvant, and 3 oz. Cutrine D. I got the canoe out and, as the watermeal was pretty much spread all over and not too windblown, I paddled across the entire pond and misted the mixture onto as much of the growth as I could.

By the time I finished a couple of hours of mowing, all of the American Pondweed, which I had sprayed pretty heavily, was brown or going that direction. I did not see any change in the watermeal, but am hoping that within a couple of days I'll see that it was also affected. I'm going to take out a dirt rake in the next few days and rake out as much of the rooted vegetation as I can. I'll get some more pics that, with a little luck, will be good "after" pics.


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I hope it works out for you Todd.

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Thanks, Travis. So do I. It's really frustrating having the pond in its current condition because it's ugly and pretty well unusable unless there's a good wind blowing that bunches all the WM up on one side or the other. I'll end up out there again tomorrow to see if there's any change.


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If no change Todd you are spining your wheels. I really would not waste my time when it is spread thin, tough for coverage. Also more likely to kill your plants you like if sprayign all over. Man i hope it starts working for you.


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Thanks, Greg. I'm hoping it starts working as well. I'm going to try to get out there this afternoon and see if anything is different. As I mentioned last night, it did seem to kill the American PW almost immediately, where it did not have any effect on it before. So, I'm hoping the higher concentration of chemicals is going to be effective this time. I'm resigned to the reality that it may require me killing the plants I'm not necessarily targeting in order to kill the WM, and if that's what it takes, then I'm okay with it. I just need to get the WM under control so I get to the point that I can just spot treat.

I've actually warmed a lot to the idea of gradually killing off all the growth in there right now and then planting desirable plants that will help use up nutrients. I'm intrigued by the water hyacinth that I've read about in some other posts, as well as lillies. I just want to make sure that if I go this route, I get some good plants are are early emergers so they start using up nutrients before the FA can really try to take off.

My suspicion is that a lot of my nutrient load comes from the numerous Canada Geese that call this pond home at least part of the time. A few times since last August I've seen a flock of probably close to 200 swimming in my little 1/2 acre pond and when I think of as much as 4 pounds of poop from each one of them per day mixing into my water, my blood boils. So far, shooting the water near them has made the place seem pretty inhospitable, and I intend to continue being a jerk towards them!


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When does goose season open?


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Originally Posted By: esshup
When does goose season open?


The moment I see one of those dirty bastiches on my farm! What happens in the country stays in the country! grin


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I like the pondweed and i think if sprayed on the surface to kill WM you will not kill any pondweed that is a ways away.


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I don't mind the pondweed either, but it had WM all through it so it got sprayed directly. Like I said, at this point I'll sacrifice whatever is needed to get rid of the WM. Didn't make it out today and now it's pouring rain, so maybe on Sunday. Hoping for some good plant death!


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Greg, you once told me that reproduction rate on DW and WM. Can you give it again?

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Originally Posted By: Todd3138
Originally Posted By: esshup
When does goose season open?


The moment I see one of those dirty bastiches on my farm! What happens in the country stays in the country! grin


Todd -- I didn't realize you had a goose problem too.

Maybe we can sneak a bunch of them from your place to my place. We'll drag them onto my next door neighbor's property in Virginia, where I think there is an unlimited bag limit.

At work they are a real nuisance and hazard. We have two buildings that are across the street from each other. We are right near the Deer Slayer Mark Brown's office -- where wildlife rules within a major urban area.

We have a Fairfax County pond between our two buildings. We have to have the carpets cleaned regularly at work because of all the geese that pollute our sidewalks and parking lots -- and our shoes. They constantly try to intimidate us as we go from building to building. I just hope that one of Travis's co-worker's (they have a precinct office across the road from us) doesn't have to detain me some morning when I get caught kicking one of those miserable hissing feathered critters in the head as I try to get into the door at work.

In any case, I've got some good recipes. grin


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Most of the time, watermeal is the last weed standing. And things that kill duckweed might have no effect on watermeal. Nuke the entire pond with Fluridone and start over. Put some new plants in to prevent nutrients from starting the entire process over. I don't think bumping up the concentration of active ingrediant is going to get done what you want. In fact, you may actually end up helping the watermeal by killing off everything it competes with.

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Originally Posted By: catmandoo
They constantly try to intimidate us as we go from building to building. I just hope that one of Travis's co-worker's (they have a precinct office across the road from us) doesn't have to detain me some morning when I get caught kicking one of those miserable hissing feathered critters in the head as I try to get into the door at work.

In any case, I've got some good recipes. grin


I think self-defense would be a justifiable reason to carry a golf club to work. No need to let them get within kicking distance. FORE!!! Hang them for a bit, neck down, then get to cleaning.


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Originally Posted By: The Pond Frog
Most of the time, watermeal is the last weed standing. And things that kill duckweed might have no effect on watermeal. Nuke the entire pond with Fluridone and start over. Put some new plants in to prevent nutrients from starting the entire process over. I don't think bumping up the concentration of active ingrediant is going to get done what you want. In fact, you may actually end up helping the watermeal by killing off everything it competes with.


PF, I hope that's not what I find when I get out there on Sunday. But, if need be, I'll go nuclear and wipe it all out. I've been giving a lot of thought to going the desirable plant route and will likely do that. I just want to see what happens here first, though.

If I escalate the fight, what sort of fluoridone product do you suggest I use for the kill off?


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Originally Posted By: catmandoo
In any case, I've got some good recipes. grin


I am not surprised!

They have been a little less present lately, maybe because I shoot around them. But having been out of town a bunch the past couple of weeks has emboldened them. There is crap and feathers everywhere right now, but another series of lead projectiles recently reminded them that they are not welcome. It's going to get ugly when I break out the AR-15 and see how many rounds I can connect with. Then I'll be driving over to your place, so make sure you have plenty of beer batter ready to roll! Or whatever it is that we'll do to cook up the evidence!


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Whitecap is the most effective for the price. Sonar and Avast are overpriced same deal. Where Diquat based stuff will normally wipe duckweed out, that damn watermeal just sits there and absorbs it. Ot maybe does not absorb it, that could be why contact herbicides have less than desirable results on watermeal. Of course, I hope whatever you try works out for you. Just in my experience watermeal is one tough hombre to knockdown. And duckweed is is close, but just not the same. I'd Judgement Day the watermeal.

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Thanks. My neighbor uses Whitecap and has no vegetation at all in his pond. He doses it annually, then uses it to touch up now and again. He said he recently wiped out some WM that had started to appear. It was evidently gone the next day and hasn't showed up again since. I'll find out what my situation is on Sunday.


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If you go back to the start of this thread you will see why Todd decided to go the diquat route. Based on cost and possibly saving some plants. There was lots of debate here. If me I would go with flouridone- it is not me so I gave advice. Todd call me for our best whitecap cost if you wish but no way I would do that cost in middle of summer I would wait until spring. I have many clients use floridone at the the 90 ppb level and not rid of watermeal either- mad as heck at money spent. Protocol for this is early spring and lowering your pond to buy you residual time.

fyi- we treat about 200 ponds a year times many years. I tried to give my advice on how to acheive watermeal control with diquat with rates and frequency based on severla past experiences. It is not easy but very doable. Also being that it is a contact herbicide other plants lived through it because putting a more concentrated mix right on problem watermeal not all aroudn the pond. Overalll diquat concentration in the pond minimal and overall cost minimal. After the intitial knockdown of water meal it usually takes very few gallons of mix.

So do with this info as you may I try to not get in arguements but I do not give advice based on my one pond or hypothetical situation it is real world. I take time when I see where I think I can help with free advice and hope it helps.

Todd keep it up but ironic after being clear your goals it is swithcing back to I would use Flouridone already. It is a process that takes mutiple treatments and no idea on using a lower concentration diquat at less rates how manyt treatmetns it will take. My mindset woudl be at least I keep it form taking over and killing my fish with oxygen cras. Tough in this heat for sure, good luck.



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Awesome post Greg, could not have said it better. In my opinion Todd had a goal that was unattainable. Watermeal is barely treatable with anything but Fluridone. And it is almost impossible to spot treat and save other plants, it is the strongest of all of them.

Summer is possibly too late after heavy infestation. Best to tackle it with Fluridone first emergence in Spring. I was under the impression it was not a very large pond, but even at that, high costs and retreatment this time of year are almost inevitable. Me, personally, would nuke the pond with Fluridone, kill them all and retreat if I had to, in the Spring. I'd manually skim it for now to avoid the crash.

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Greg and PF, thanks for the follow up thoughts. I finally made it out to the pond yesterday after doing my second treatment (which I suspect was much more effective and broad than the first) and noticed what I believe may be a reduction of 1/2 to 1/3 of the watermeal. I don't think it was just an illusion with wind bunching, but rather was real progress. I didn't have the opportunity to re-treat yesterday, but will likely do so again this week or the coming weekend. I will probably use about the same mix of chemicals as this last treatment, though I may get bold and go a little heavier on the diquat.

As far as the timing factor goes for optimal treatment, I agree with you guys completely that early in the season is by far the best time. Circumstances discouraged me from using chemicals early this year and now I'm paying for it, but it looks like I made progress so I'll keep working at it and see if I can keep a semi-usable pond for the remainder of the warm season. Next year, it will be hit from the outset in early spring to hopefully knock out the possibility of the WM emerging in force again. And I will probably want to try the Whitecap/fluoridone route and will pick that up through you, Greg.

In the meantime, my goals do seem to have changed since my first post as I have become very enamored of the idea of doing some plantings of desirable plant species. I hadn't really given that much thought previously and, frankly, have always sort of overlooked those threads or magazine articles as they just weren't of interest. Now, however, the idea of using some good species that will help use up nutrients early to combat the undesirable things is actually really interesting. To that end, I may well just blast the whole pond (PF, it's only a 1/2 acre pond at best), kill what's there, and then start with lillies and stuff like that.

Again, guys, I really appreciate all the help you've both offered in this thread and I will continue to post any progress here.


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I've been watching this thread with interest. One thing I can definitely agree with, Watermeal is one tough hombre. I really hope the money you spent on Diquat was not wasted. If your spray treatments have indeed reduced the Watermeal, that is good news. Nothing has ever worked on Watermeal for me except Fluridone. Yes, it is expensive but it does work.

I have a 3/4 acre pond that was completely covered with Watermeal. One quart of Whitecap applied in early May last year killed all the Watermeal and most of the other vegetation. It is over one year later and no signs of Watermeal but the submerged and emergent plants have come back. I'm expecting the Watermeal to return but I have another quart of Whitecap on hand to stop it in its tracks! If your pond is smaller than 1/2 acre and the infestion is not severe, I suspect that 1 quart of Whitecap may be enough for 2 treatments but I will defer to Greg and the other experts on that.

Best of luck to you!

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Thanks, travism. My neighbor did/does the same thing in his 1/2 acre pond and had results similar to what you described, though as mentioned in an earlier post, he does it every year so not only does he not have WM, he pretty much has nothing else at all. I definitely want some vegetation, but am thinking more and more that it could be worthwhile to go the fluoridone route and then plant some good plants. Given what I've learned about WM, though, I'd probably need to kill it early next spring, then be ready to hit some of stubborn seeds that hang on to the next season as soon as they begin to emerge. I would think that would mean at least two seasons of not planting anything new because the re-treatment may well wipe it out, too.

Given that I've seen some success with diquat at this point - at a pretty reasonable cost (~ $60 for a gallon of Weedtrine D), I'm willing to keep working with this until the chemical is gone and/or the WM is gone. Then we'll re-evaluate and see what comes next.

Thanks again for the input!


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Interesting thing. I went out to catch a few fish for dinner last night and the WM looks to have reduced even a little bit more. Probably half of the pond was completely clear of it. There was certainly a little bit of bunching, but we didn't really have any breeze to speak of yesterday, so I'm hoping it wasn't just an illusion. I'll probably try another treatment this coming weekend and see if there appears to be any progress.


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Are you still considering the tilipia? They might eat that up and keep eating it up if it reemerges. Tough to tell progress on watermeal. So fine it can stack and look reduced. I have to beleive it is the hardest aquatic plant to eradicate.

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Tilapia are out of the mix this year it appears, so we'll try again next year and hopefully get them in by late April/first week of May at the latest. I definitely want to use them as part of my ongoing management of the pond so I can minimize chemical use. I agree that it's tough to tell if there were additional gains beyond what I got from this last treatment because the stuff does seem to stack up so easily, but the pond surface was as nice as it has looked since before the emergence of the WM. Or at least 1/2 of it was that nice!


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So after a little less than a week since the last treatment, I did another treatment at a higher mixture of the Weedtrine D - 24 oz. in 1 gallon of water with 1 oz. of Adjuvant. I concentrated the entire mixture in an area along roughly 50 - 75 feet of shoreline and as far out as the mist would go. This was about 4 days ago. We went out tonight and, while there was a nice breeze, it wasn't too heavy and I have clearly made progress on the watermeal. I have to say that we are at least 1/2 of what it used to be, and possibly 1/3 of what it used to be. With a little luck, tomorrow I'll go out in the canoe and spray again, hitting as much of it as I can effectively spray. After the initial failure at a low concentration, I was kind of discouraged, but realized that Greg and Pond Frog had been saying it would take consistent application to see any possible progress this year with the plant so far emerged. Sticking with it has proven to get us real results and, I've gotta say, it's pretty darn exciting to see it working! Back at it tomorrow if we can and hit it with another treatment.


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Thanks for update Todd- glad others can learn from your expreience. As mentioend first with our success on diquat and WM it took spraying it almost daily at times followed byt when we saw it. For whitecap option we wdoul need to know average depth and surface acres to see how much you need.


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This pond is about a 1/2 acre and has an average depth of probably no more than 3 feet.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm really psyched to see the progress.


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I always like to hear feedback on herbicide application, actually anything that might improve my game. If I may ask a couple of questions, how are you judging your progress? Are you seeing dead watermeal, or just less covering the surface? In your opinion, would you say the higher concentration of active ingrediant or the multiple applications had more effect, maybe a combination of both? Are you able to spot treat with any effect, and save adjacent plants? Your sprayer nozzle is set to mist? Thank you very much for reporting back. I am always happy for a pond owner that makes progress and begins to win thier pond back. It is a morale builder.

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That's great Todd!


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Originally Posted By: The Pond Frog
I always like to hear feedback on herbicide application, actually anything that might improve my game. If I may ask a couple of questions, how are you judging your progress? Are you seeing dead watermeal, or just less covering the surface? In your opinion, would you say the higher concentration of active ingrediant or the multiple applications had more effect, maybe a combination of both? Are you able to spot treat with any effect, and save adjacent plants? Your sprayer nozzle is set to mist? Thank you very much for reporting back. I am always happy for a pond owner that makes progress and begins to win thier pond back. It is a morale builder.


Let's see if I can hit all your questions, PF.

I believe I have achieved an actual reduction because there appears to be substantially less WM now than when I began. Even though it's been stacked up the past couple of times out, it covers a much smaller area than it did previously and the layer is visually not as thick all over as it used to be when it stacked.

I have seen dead/dying watermeal the day after treatment (the last time with the heavier concentration was the first time I've been able to go back the very next day). It was turning various shades of brown and yellow.

My suspicion is that the higher concentration is what is really doing it as that was the first noticeable impact, but I think it would be crazy not to believe that there is some good cumulative effect happening here from what is now 3 treatments.

Spot treatment has not really been used at this point, so it's hard to say. Based on some observations of the last treatment, I'd guess it may work at high concentrations.

The nozzle is on mist and, as a result, I've definitely had some shoreline vegetation casualties, but I'm not too worried about that right now. I've been trying generally to be pretty careful with overspray going to undesirable places, but it can't be helped sometimes when misting. I have to say that the greatest single impact seems to have occurred when misting versus using a stream.

I'm looking forward now to perhaps getting another treatment in tomorrow as today just isn't going to work. I'll keep posting. And you are spot on, PF, that this is a morale builder for sure. It's been great to actually be able to go out and enjoy the look of the pond again and it encourages me to keep on it until the stuff disappears either from treatment or from cold, then to get an early start next year with chemicals and tilapia as early as I possibly can.


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Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
That's great Todd!


Thanks, Jeff. It's been really encouraging to see what I believe is a change in the right direction.


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Thanks for the feedback Todd, that is what makes this forum great!!!

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Glad to contribute in a little way, PF.

As an addendum to my earlier post, I had to stop out at the farm today briefly to grab a few things and when I pulled up, I was utterly shocked to see that the WM present yesterday - already a smaller amount - had easily been cut in half yet again! It was amazing, but it was easily a 1/3 to 1/2 further reduction. All I can attribute it to is the cumulative effect of the Weedtrine/Diquat in the water and that it is now really catching up with the WM. At this rate, I'm going to check it again tomorrow as we're probably going to spend a few hours there tomorrow evening and, depending on what I see, may or may not apply another dose.

The breeze again today had stacked it up, but it now occupies a "corner" of the pond no more than probably 75 - 100 feet of shoreline, if that, and extends out from being flush with the banks at each end of the mass to perhaps a max of 20 feet out in the rough center. Yesterday, it was along that same shoreline, but for easily double or more of that distance. It didn't extend any further than where it is today, but just took up a lot more shoreline distance.

Just amazing to me and absolutely exciting to see that we appear to be making headway. As long as I can stay on it this season, my hope is that next spring it will be much easier to reign in via hopefully a lighter use of chemicals and tilapia. When I have a few minutes, I'll post a series of pics showing it from start to where it is as of the time I do that post.

Thanks again to everybody for your input along the way with this effort.


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Todd, if you have a chance tomorrow, I'd hit it again. You've got it reeling towards the ropes, don't let it get back on it's feet.


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Todd great news. The diquat does nto have a cumulative effect. It is a contact herbicide. So if you have less watermeal it is from past efforts not just diquat in the water. Keep in mind with WM you have some in different stages of development and in the watercolumn as well. This is the tough part of killing with diquat.

Do you still have the other submersed grasses? Hopefully so since you wanted to save. If not yes fyi one 8 ozs whitecap will do- $140 for PB members.

I hope your efforts prove two things it can be done with diquat and also the effort required for diquat control vs. flouridone.

Scott is right on with his comment, Like I said we hit it back to back days mutiple times in our eradication efforts.


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So I stopped by the farm on my way home from work today (yep, half day today! Woohoo!) and saw that the WM was more prevalent than I thought. I suspect some of it may have been knocked down temporarily from the heavy isolated rains we've had the last few days, but it's definitely still less than it was before. I will be applying another dose late afternoon today and will go with the heavier concentration I used last time.

Greg, thanks for clarifying that diquat is contact only and isn't likely to have a cumulative effect. Didn't realize that. I'll probably be picking up some Whitecap from you as I'm still not ruling out that path. At this point I don't care about the submerged stuff so much as I did when I first began this - my goal is purely to eliminate the WM at just about whatever cost, so if I lose other plants, so be it. I'll probably hold off till spring for that.

In any event, I have made progress for sure and will keep after it.


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Well, I didn't keep after it as I should have, but work kind of got in the way. As a result, the WM is back strong and so I'm going the Whitecap route. Got it in today from Greg. Purchased Monday and arrived today. Outstanding discount on an 8 oz. bottle and absolutely prompt service. I truly appreciate having the resources like Greg and others that we're fortunate to have here. I'm heading out tonight to apply the Whitecap and will keep you posted on how this works compared to the 3 applications of Weedtrine. FWIW, I think the Weedtrine might have been more effective, as has been suggested, on the early emergent WM as opposed to trying to nail it after it had reached full growth and strength. It definitely did make a dent, but my inability to stay on it day after day cost me in the long run here.


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We got the Whitecap applied tonight. Mixed it into 5 gallons of water in a bucket, and, since the label said it can achieve greater results when mixed with other herbicides, I added in some Cutrine and Weedtrine along with a few ounces of adjuvant/wetting agent. We then hopped in the canoe and my wife paddled while I poured the mixture in spots all around the pond. I'd pour and she'd stir it up pretty good with the paddle as she got to it. After we had emptied the bucket, we both paddled around the pond 5 or 6 times, trying to really stir things up and get some water movement going just to help it along a bit more on its spread throughout the whole pond. Now we just sit back and wait, I guess. I'm hoping that we can see some results with this treatment even though all the advice seems to say it's tough, perhaps even with fluoridone, to kill the WM at this time of year. Everyone think good thoughts! Well, actually, think bad thoughts for the WM and hope that it dies a fast, yet painful, death! grin


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Todd,

It's been two month now. Any signs of progress in your war?



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Hey, Blaine, yeah, I've seen a substantial reduction - a real one this time around - after that Whitecap treatment (did I mention that Greg Grimes gave me a sweatheart of a deal on it just for being a PB member? laugh ).

There is still enough there that on a totally calm day, it will spread a very, very thin layer over perhaps a quarter of the pond, but it's thin enough that it's not too visually troubling. With just a little breeze, it tends to all stack up on a shoreline into a nice, tight little area where I'm sometimes able to scoop a little bit out just to take a small manual removal stab at it.

We're getting into some pretty chilly nights coming up here and I am hoping that this will be enough to finish it off earlier than it was last year.

An interesting observation has also been that the Whitecap (did I mention the great deal from Greg Grimes? grin ), of course, knocked out pretty much everything else in the pond, but the chara has just started coming back in the past few weeks, to the point now that in many areas it's a few inches tall/deep. I've noticed a lot of small fish hanging around in it where it's close to shore, so it may be a great addition for the winter by providing a place for the YOY fish to hide out, at least for awhile.

Thanks for asking, Blaine.


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GREAT information here. I will be starting my battle with duckweed and watermeal in the spring. Looks like i'll go straight to Whitecap in March or April and nip it in the bud.

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Bizz, just make sure that you keep the recommended ppm concentration for the recommended length of time or you're just wasting $$.


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Hey, Buzz, esshup's advice is dead on - that concentration is the key to success. Are you aware that Greg Grimes (www.lakework.com) has a phenomenal deal for PB subscribers? grin In case you're looking, he'd be a great resource!

I wish you the best of luck - in my short pond ownership time, I can tell you that watermeal is the single worst thing I have experienced, and that includes a dam in another pond that was screwed up by muskrats. I'd take that over watermeal any day. At least I can shoot the muskrats and get a little satisfaction!


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Todd thanks for update and I need to get you on commission. smile Just glad things worked for the expensive but neccesary herbicide.


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Originally Posted By: Greg Grimes
Todd thanks for update and I need to get you on commission. smile Just glad things worked for the expensive but neccesary herbicide.


GREG GRIMES, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! THERE HE IS - GREG GRIMES! NEED A GREAT DEAL ON WHITECAP? SEE THIS MAN! grin

I was really happy with the results, too, Greg. It took awhile, but I suspected that could be the issue heading into it given that it had taken over so heavily by the time I hit it with the good stuff. It's been great for the past several weeks seeing more water than watermeal! And with out colder night time temps coming, I'm hoping to see the very last of it before too much longer. Then, another dose this coming spring (save me a bottle, please!) and maybe we can keep it from gaining much, if any, ground next year, especially if we can get some tilapia in there early season.

Thanks again for all the help in getting this one under control.


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Thanks Todd....and Greg, I will be in touch with spring being the target date.

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Hi everyone, I have been reading this post, what a great conversation thread. I have about a 3/4 acre pond with a watermeal problem. Usually complete coverage from march through november.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/K5FsUQviPSAUBRnrN5srVA?feat=directlink

(sorry about the duck in the middle.. long story...)

The tank is clear now, due to it being winter.. there is a little watermeal left right along the bankline.

However, come March, it will come back.. I don't want it to. I want to get fish in the tank again (it's been years due to oxygen depletion).

Any thoughts? Nuke it with whitecap upon the first sign of it coming back and then stock with talapia? Can I nuke it now or is that a waste?

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Thanks,

Jaymz

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Jaymz, welcome to PB! I'm not an expert on plant control so don't take what I have to say as gospel. I think you have to wait until the WM is growing, and then you have to keep the concentration of floridone in the correct range for a certain length of time for it to work.

Ain't that duck trying to swim upside down?? wink


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Watermeal and duckweed are mean critters. I would spray with flouridone and keep spraying until it is ALL gone. Then, and only then, would I add 30 or 40 pounds of tilapia. Tilapia can be helpful but not until the stuff is really under control. I wouldn't add anything that eats tilapia until the infestation is history.

The WM will re-propogate from the stuff you are now seeing. I think I would hit it now and keep hitting it as it tries to get another yearly start.

Disclaimer: I'm also not a pro. Like Esshup, just another pond junkie.


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Hey, Jaymz, welcome to the forum! Really sorry to see that you're faced with this incredibly frustrating issue, too. I feel your pain.

I waited till pretty late in the season to Whitecap my pond, as you probably know from reading this thread. It did work, though, and by late summer, the water was generally pretty clear. My plan is to hit it again in early spring at the time most plants are starting to emerge and try to nail it before it comes out. It's most susceptible to chemical intervention when it's in the growth stage, so hitting it early is better than waiting till later like I did. I don't regret having tried the other products first, but am convinced that the fluoridone is the best way to eradicate this stuff. I am guessing it may take a couple of seasons of chemical treatment to get ahead of it, but we'll just have to see. I am also hopeful that I can get some tilapia into the pond this year at the earliest possible date (hint, hint, hint, Rainman!) just in case they can help, too. In all likelihood, that's going to be at least 30 days apart.

An interesting thing I noted in this pond was that the Whitecap did wipe out all the other vegetation, too, till very late summer/early fall when I noticed some chara starting to grow back. Of course, fluoridone is going to have that effect and what made me notice it was that the YOY BG were getting hammered while we were at the farm as we would see LMB right up on the banks nailing little schools of them. I don't have much other cover in this pond at all and so the YOY fish had nowhere to hide, a situation I intend to remedy this year with at least one area of brush piles near the primary bedding sites. That's a point you may want to consider if you go the Whitecap route.

So, my recommendation, having gone through this now, is Whitecap as early as your growth season allows. Youse guys down in TX obviously have a different growing season than we do, so definitely hit that stuff before it has a chance to really emerge and grab hold again for this year.

Good luck with it and keep us posted on what you do. I, for one, will be very interested to see how it works out for you and may learn something from your experiences that will help me keep ahead on my own place this year.

PS - with that duck out there, you sure that isn't "duck"weed? grin


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Thanks everyone. I guess I will try the flouridone route, i'll have to price it out.. those list prices seem quite expensive!

I will certainly keep everyone updated. The duck is a long story, basically was out with shotgun one morning several years ago during the last weekend of duck season and shot it.. then realized I didn't have my dog with me. What ensues next is a coin flip between me and a buddy of who is going to swim in the 35 degree water filled with watermeal. If you really want to see the result, search youtube for "duck hunting without a dog". (Warning, there's some minor bad language as one would expect when swimming in really cold water.)

Anyhow....

The only thing I am still a little confused is how to apply. Considering the watermeal is at it's lowest right now (almost non existent) should I wait till it starts to come back and hit it topically or just go ahead and disperse it across the entire pond (which is only 1/2 acre or so anyhow)?

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Brrr!!

Here I thought I was going to see you swim back with it in your teeth! grin Where's the fishing rod when you need it?

I think the Fluridone needs to stay at a certain concentration in the pond (ppm) for a certain length of time for it to be effective. I don't know if spot treating would work.


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Wait until May, preferably after spring rains have subsided (for these two species). You'll probably have mature DW ad WM still/already on the surface, and newly germinating plants popping every day; which sets the stage for treatment-timing. Ideally, treat before the plants begin to produce more seeds.
I didn't read this thread's history; but, if this is your first season to treat, plan to treat again next season (same time) to catch any latent seeds that failed to germinate this season. Breaking the seed-production cycle is critical for long-term (multi-year) results. But, with transient waterfowl and turtles comes the possibility of new plant/seed introductions from adjacent bodies of water. So, no "permanent guarantees" even if you do everything perfectly from a treatment standpoint.

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Jaymz, Kelly is one of the forum's very experienced folks when it comes to aquatic vegetation, so take his advice as gospel!

As for how to apply the Whitecap, I just mixed mine according to the directions in a big bucket and then my wife and I went out in the canoe and she paddled as I spot poured. As we would move forward, she'd make sure to sweep the paddle right through the spot where I poured and create some mixing action. We took about 30 minutes to do this, using small spot pours literally all over the pond. When the bucket was empty, we both paddled and tried to get a lot of wave action going to help it spread. Obviously not the most efficient way to do it, but for what we had to work with, I feel like we got it pretty well mixed.


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Awesome. Thanks! We'll give it a go.

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As for applying fluridone: spot-treatments for small ponds and most lakes are a futile endeavor. No different than attempting to dye only a small area of a pond and expecting the dye to remain isolated in that spot for 4 to 6+ weeks. It won't!
The main objective with fluridone treatments is to get the product sub-surface, even if you're targeting floating weeds. Fluridone degrades rapidly if exposed to direct sunlight. So, definitely DON'T apply it in a topical manner (a la Roundup) to floating weeds.
Also, if you go to the extreme effort that Todd reported above, be careful where you lay that paddle for next several weeks - and DON'T lay it directly on your lawn. Also, if you step on any fluridone that inadvertently drips in your boat, be sure to thoroughly clean your shoes before walking across a lawn. Oh, and definitely don't drain your trailered-boat in a driveway that borders your lawn. And, if your lab loves to swim in the treated pond, be sure to keep him/her out until the product has thoroughly dispersed; or otherwise make sure said lab doesn't shake, lay or roll on your lawn. Did I mention that my lawn frequently has white spots and dead grass in unusual patterns (some even resemble footprints)? My wife still thinks our lawn is simply disease-prone. Isn't practical experience wonderful!


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IIRC 50F + water is suggested. I once put out some systemic and pulled up the john boat on land when finished , No grass for 2 years. Also you can use a hand sprayer (mix with water at suggested rate) and spray it under water as the boat moves along using the trolling motor to further mix it.

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My lab is a obsessive compulsive tank swimmer, so I will keep that in mind.

It's sad that I am going to have buy an old used canoe and spend some dough on whitecap just to get rid of a bloom smaller than a frog nipple.

Any suggestions on how much fluridone to purchase? Tank is probably 2/3 acre with average depth of 5-7 ft.

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1) Don't buy a canoe just for this purpose, unless you might have other uses for it down the road (such as collecting downed-ducks).
2) There are countless methods for effectively applying fluridone; some of which are rather unorthodox.
Gotta run to a scout meeting now, but I'll email you later...

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jay, 8 ounces should work for you since having less than 4 acft.
Follow rec. given when you start to see it actively growing this spring. I suggest actually lowering your pond level prior to treatments. Thanks http://lakework.com/cart/index.php?p=product&id=135&parent=1, $10 off for PB members.



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And Jaymz, consider buying your Whitecap from Greg - great pricing and quick delivery!


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Hypothetically: If one lowers a pond's water level prior to a fluridone treatment and the pond level fails to adequately rise to normal pool-level during the product's post-treatment period-of-activity (say, 60 to 90 days); OR, the pond rises abruptly and discharges a large % of treated water several weeks after the treatment, what happens to any existing DW & WM seeds that were produced the prior season, but were stranded above the water-line during the post-treatment window of fluridone's activity?
I'm stating some potential concerns as a question...

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Good thought Kelly but with spring treatment in the SE never been left high and dry. Just a method of buying some capacity of the pond to add water but the flouridoen not leave the pond the first rain you get.


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Oh, I generally agree with the concept of lowering the water level to allow more in-flow capacity, especially where spring-rains are relatively guaranteed. The same approach is often used over here. But, we'll occasionally run out of fluridone-activity before the pond-level rises sufficiently to inundate all seed-laden areas; prompting a resurgance of either pest when it eventually does so.
I just thought it appropriate to make folks aware of all possibilities.
Bottom line: there's risk to either approach, but generally less risk with the pre-treat level-drop. A reduced fluridone concentration in confined water is always preferable to a higher concentration in discharging treated water (yikes).
If dropping the pond's level prior to the treatment isn't an option, using a split-treatment technique (Two 1/2-doses @ 3 week intervals) might provide added insurance against an untimely flow-through event.

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BTW - there is a newly registered herbicide that shows promise on watermeal (and possibly duckweed) without the long contact-time required by fluridone; with little - if any irrigation restriction.
The downside (always a downside) is that the new product is short-lived once applied. So, unlike fluridone's lengthy period of activity (which continues to control weeds from newly germinating seeds for several weeks or months), this new herbicide might require more than one treatment per season. BUT, spot-treatments might be possible. Still much to learn..... More details to follow later this spring.

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Thanks everyone. I've ordered the whitecap and will start the process when everything comes to bloom. I'll start a new thread and update everyone on the progress. I've bordering on inadverdently hijacking this one smile

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Thanks for the order I saw it go out today.


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So I know this is an old thread, but i'm saving the whitecap for emergencies and going to stock tilapia this weekend (assuming the weather cooperates with me) first. Small tank, but we shall see how it goes.

As a fun side project I'm going to chronicle this watermeal removal adventure here: http://www.texas-hunting.org/community/blog/an-exercise-in-fixing-a-farm-tank-part-i.html

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No watermeal so far this year, but we have a load of FA and curly leaf pondweed. I know the curly leaf dies off fairly quickly, but there is a ton of it this year. We also have some American Pond Weed, which I like, but it's going to be sacrificed as I'm doing Whitecap today in order to get ahead of any watermeal this year. I would prefer a more natural option, but the reality seems to be that this pond is so old and in a state of eutrophication that I just don't have many other options beyond draining and dredging. So, Whitecap it is and with luck, we'll avoid watermeal this year. Thanks again, Greg, for the sale.


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Well, here we are a year later and man.. have I made some mistakes.

Last year I bought about 80 bucks worth of tilapia which ended up being about 6 lbs worth... little to my knowledge at the time, that also turned out to be about 6 large tilapia.. not sure why I didn't get fingerlings but it was too late to go back (fishery is couple hours away).

Naturally that wasn't enough tilapia to make a dent in the watermeal so this year i tried something different.. in March I stocked 4 grass carp.. this was based on bad advice.. which I am only now finding out.

Thinking (in March) i was going to be OK I also actually stocked the tank with bluegill/redear fingerlings, minnows and catfish in hopes I would not have watermeal and be able to fish the tank next year.

about 4 weeks ago I noticed the watermeal coming back so I went to plan b and applied 8 oz of whitecap via sprayer wand throughout the pond. I may have waited too long to apply it because this is what it looks like 3 weeks later.



Maybe the whitecap needs more time?

Is it too late to try Tilapia again?

I fear my fish are dead... I see very few signs of life.

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How big is the pond and what is the average depth?

Fluridone takes some time to kick in, but if you are at the right PPB, you should start to see the watermeal leaves turning white. My experience with it is, you see whitening about 4 days into it and substantial whitening by 2 weeks. At this point it stops spreading. By 1 month it is pretty much pure white and by 2 months dies off.

With an infestation as bad as yours... You really need to watch for a fish kill not caused by the complete coverage but once the watermeal dies, all of it rotting in the pond will take up large amounts of DO.

Is there any way you can aerate the pond?

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its probably just over 1/2 acre with an average depth 3ft (8ft near the center and damn).

There is no electricity anywhere near the tank, unfortunately.

I should not have put fish in it without making sure the watermeal wasn't going to return.. i had it in my mind that the grass carp would control the watermeal... was told by someone that they were the ticket.

it's been about 3 weeks since we applied the fluridone, the watermeal looks a little yellowish, but thats about it.

I may just have waited too long.

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Hey, if it doesn't die off completely, would you be willing to skim some off and ship it to me? I'd of course pay for shipping & supplies. I have a fish feeding project I'm working on, and I give you my word that I won't let the little nuisance spread into any waterways.

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Got it! Finally won (I think). It took about a month, but my tank has little no watermeal finally.. Thanks so much for the help, the Whitecap did the trick. Now if I can just get my fish problem figured out.

Before:



After:


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Congrats, Jaymz! That is just outstanding! I fully appreciate the sense of hope and satisfaction that comes with knowing you got one up on such an invasive plant, at least for this season. My best recommendation is that you tackle it proactively next year - hit the pond with another dose of fluoridone before anything starts growing. In my case, late application like yours in the first year followed by early application the next (last year) led to absolutely none showing up this year even though I didn't use fluoridone this year. Best of luck keeping ahead of it - that was one mutha of an infestation you had, bud!


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Just curious, Did you lose any of your fish?

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Thanks! Yeah, I think I lost my fish. I'm gonna give it another go here soon. I want to monitor to make sure it doesn't come back. I will apply a second dose earlier next year!

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Jaymz - don't apply too early, or too late next season. If you apply too early, and heavy spring rains cause your pond to "flush", you'll need to redose it all over again. If applied too late, any mature seed-production the exists prior to the application will present another generation to battle the following season.

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Originally Posted By: hang_loose
Just curious, Did you lose any of your fish?


HL, if you were asking that of Jaymz, then you've seen his response. If you were asking me, no, I did not lose any fish that I could tell as a result of the watermeal die off. I think it happened slowly enough the first year that the O2 was able to keep pace. Last year, I hit the water after the other plants had emerged and a little before the time the watermeal had emerged the previous year. Again, because there wasn't a lot of established plant growth by that point, I think I was able to avoid a big O2 crash and, again, no apparent fish loss.


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