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#224302 06/30/10 10:23 PM
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Well, I had apparent success with the cutrine plus treatment as the visible FA is pretty much gone from the surface. Of course, the watermeal has now taken over and in a span of a week, is enough to cover the entire surface of the 1/2 acre pond when it is fully spread out. It's a thin layer and, normally, the wind has bunched it together such that at least 1/3 of the pond is clear.

I realize watermeal is a prolific grower, but suspect that with elimination of much of the FA, the excess nutrients are going to towards this nuisance.

I was planning on tilapia, but that did not work out, so now on to chemical options, much as I do not want to do so.

From my reading here, fluoridone based products may be the best/only reliable answer. I understand this to mean products such as Sonar and Whitecap, both more expensive than the tilapia were going to be.

My concern is this. I have a lot of chara, sago (I am pretty sure), and American pondweed. I don't particularly want to lose all those, but believe that Sonar or Whitecap will probably kill much of those populations as well. I don't necessarily want to kill all of the remaining vegetation, but if that is the cost to rid myself of watermeal, or at least make a serious dent in it, then I am resigned to this undesired "shock and awe" approach. I also realize that a massive DO crash could happen if this is not carefully managed.

So, my out loud musings are as follows, and I would really value any feedback the gang may have, as well as viable alternatives to chemicals.

* Could I use a minimal amount of chemical over a series of applications to gradually use a full dose to hit the stuff but avoid a DO crash?

* Am I correct in believing the two products I mentioned will likely kill every form of vegetation in the pond?

* Are there products that will work with some level of specificity for the watermeal only?

* Are there any other options short of manual removal (for which I don't realistically have the time) that I should first consider before going nuclear on this friggin' stuff?

As an aside, I am planning on adding 2 GC to the small pond this fall so they'll be in place and ready to start munching in the spring. I hope that will address some of the issues. I'm also planning to put 4 in my larger pond, which I'm not otherwise really managing right now, to work on the curly leaf pondweed that I discovered this year (it's all totally gone from sight now, by the way. Very interesting how it dies off so quickly) and any other stuff there just to keep that pond attractive even though it's only half full.

As well, I'm hoping Rex will be able to bring me tilapia next year so I can those in the mix as well. I am really sorry it didn't work this year, especially after seeing Scott's/esshup's pictures of the beautiful fish he got from Rex. I really would prefer to use natural methods to control the vegetation, while also working on eliminating or controlling the source of the excessive nutrients that are contributing to the problems.

Thanks for your thoughts!


Todd La Neve

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Just got off the phone with a local fish farm owner and he said that koi will eat watermeal and duckweed. Anyone able to confirm or refute this? I've never seen that mentioned here as far as I know and would be inclined to trust this resource and all the great folks here before others.


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Don't count on any fish other than tilapia eating the stuff.
















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Todd, flouridone will kill the sago and other plants before it kills watermeal. Apply it all apply or slowly still will kill based on ppb level high enough to kill watermeal it will kill all vegetation. The grass carp due little good on watermeal. Tilpaia do well.

My sugestion in your case of saving the other veg is Diquat. It kills the heck outta of the watermeal, will you eradicate this year probably not. However when blown thick a mixture of water and 4-6 ozs Reward or similiar will kill the heck out of what it touches in a mist spray. Do this as needed to keep at bay. Next year hit again as it shows and combo with tilapia and might rid of.

summary- easier method pour in a few ounces of whitecap, but for your goals reward.


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Originally Posted By: ewest
Don't count on any fish other than tilapia eating the stuff.


Thanks, Eric. That's what I needed to hear and it certainly supports the complete absence of folks here saying koi do the trick.


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Originally Posted By: Greg Grimes
Todd, flouridone will kill the sago and other plants before it kills watermeal. Apply it all apply or slowly still will kill based on ppb level high enough to kill watermeal it will kill all vegetation. The grass carp due little good on watermeal. Tilpaia do well.

My sugestion in your case of saving the other veg is Diquat. It kills the heck outta of the watermeal, will you eradicate this year probably not. However when blown thick a mixture of water and 4-6 ozs Reward or similiar will kill the heck out of what it touches in a mist spray. Do this as needed to keep at bay. Next year hit again as it shows and combo with tilapia and might rid of.

summary- easier method pour in a few ounces of whitecap, but for your goals reward.


Great info, Greg! Thanks a ton for sharing those insights. I'm hoping the tilapia come through next year because I'd really prefer the natural approach for sure.

Let me make sure I am understanding your suggestion here. Basically, the fluoridone will kill all the other stuff but is less likely to touch the watermeal unless the chemical is in a really high concentration. Instead, Diquat is what will hit the watermeal more effectively. Is Diquat the brand name, or is that an active chemical ingredient? Someone, maybe DD1, suggested Diquat in another post, but I must have misunderstood the application was for watermeal and thought he was referencing FA instead.

As for mixing the Diquat, are you saying to do it in whatever the proper concentration is, then also add some Reward? If so, is that geared towards the watermeal, or will that also kill other vegetation?

As I mentioned, I do want to try to keep some of the vegetation in there, but I want that watermeal out in the worst way. If I have to sacrifice some other plants to achieve that goal, then so be it, but I'd love to save what I can and put some grass carp in there to work on those other things naturally.

Thanks for taking time to consider these questions, Greg. Again, I really appreciate the input.


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Greg's right on the money. First, guy wants to sell you some koi. They won't eat it, almost no carp will. Second, it ain't like duckweed, it's way harder to kill. If you go slow release fluridone it will be the last thing to die, if it does at all. I think you are better served going spray mist reward on surface emerged watermeal. Bear in mind it will comeback, but at least you might save desired vegetation. Retreat when, not if, it reemerges. Add tilipia.

Or sterilize pond with fluridone. It's slow release so odds are you are not going to crash either way.

Diquat is the active ingrediant in Reward and Weedtrine. Contact spray whatever bottle says, just on surface watermeal and sparingly. You can always hit it again. I'd hit it with a mist, not a stream. Mix in a surfactant to get it to stick to watermeal.

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Does Diquat = Reward, or are we talking about mixing the two for a synergistic effect of the best qualities of each?

Thanks, PF!


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Originally Posted By: Todd3138
Does Diquat = Reward, or are we talking about mixing the two for a synergistic effect of the best qualities of each?

Thanks, PF!


Diquat is active ingrediant in Reward and Weedtrine D. If you want fast results mix in same amount Cutrine Plus or Scythe. And make sure 1/2 or so of surfactant. This should be super fast death, then respray whatever you missed and wait.

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I think I generally understand what a surfactant does, but where does one find a surfactant?

This link appears to give a pretty good explanation of what I think you and Greg just said, PF. The only thing I'm not seeing here is mention of a surfactant. Again, how is that used in terms of ratio?

I'm also wondering this - the articles I'm reading all seem to talk about using x number of gallons of the chemicals diluted by so many gallons of water. However, that appears to be a treatment designed to treat an entire pond as opposed to spot treating as I would be doing. I only have a small sprayer at this point, 1.5 gallons, and really don't want to put the money into a big hoss sprayer right now.

So, to fill a 1.5 gallon sprayer, what sort of amounts am I looking at? As a complete math retard, I need help on figuring out how to divide all these figures into ounces and whatnot so the right ratio will fit in my puny sprayer!

Thanks for the help, guys!


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OK, right from the Reward label for you Todd. Spot treatment, 2 quarts per 100 gal. .5% Solution. So in your 1 1/2 gal sprayer it should hold almost 200 oz. Just put in 1 oz of Reward. Then same info, on Reward label, .25% wetting agent. Surfactant, Greg has them on his website for a good price plus pondboss discount. So 1/2 oz. Put both of those in your sprayer first. Then fill it up with normal tap water. Treat maybe 50% of the densest material. Comeback in two weeks and finish off the rest. If you have an adjustable nozzle, mist it or spray mist. Your object is to just get everything wet, not dripping wet, not soaking wet. Not spraying everywhere, in the air, on no weed water, in your own face. Just on the plants you want dead. If you want much faster results mix in 1 oz of Cutrine Plus or Scythe. I can't make it much simpler unless I come do it myself.

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Legal Disclaimer: The Pond Frog is not responsible for pond crashes, boat crashes, trainwrecks and party crashers. Pond owners death from incompetence, herbicide misuse, abuse or overuse. Always follow all herbicides manufacturers (Syngenta) instructions.

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PF is right. On the surfactant or adjuvant be sure it will cut the waxy coating the WM. Several kinds will.



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Originally Posted By: The Pond Frog
I can't make it much simpler unless I come do it myself.


Haven't you always wanted to come see Wild, Wonderful West Virginia? laugh

Thanks a million, PF. You made that so simple that even I can understand it!

I see that I can buy Weedtrine at the local Tractor Supply store and it appears that is also a Diquat based product. I assume it will work the same way as Reward, which is not carried at TSC.

As for the surfactant, should that be available to me somewhere locally? I'd certainly prefer to patronize Greg, but if there's any way possible, I want to get the first treatment in tomorrow as I'll be gone again for the next 3 - 4 days. Nothing would make me happier than to return home and find that the watermeal had started dying already while I was gone. I just don't know what other sort of store would carry a product like that, not necessarily the name of a store, but the type of store. Maybe a landscaping business?

In any event, if I can't find it, I shall place an order with Greg tomorrow and get started on the treatments beginning next week.

Of course, I naturally release Pond Frog from any and all liability for DO crashes, fish crashes, party crashes, vehicular crashes, hard drive crashes, and the like!

Again, thanks a bunch for the guidance here. Once I get the surfactant nailed down, this cocktail is going in the water and I will post pics along the way!


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TSC should have the surficant as well. At least the ones around here do. It's in the same area as their bulk (1 to 2.5 gallon) herbacides, and in the local store, it's up on the top shelf right next to the dye that is used to tint the herbacide to show where it was applied.

Surficant

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Originally Posted By: esshup
TSC should have the surficant as well. At least the ones around here do. It's in the same area as their bulk (1 to 2.5 gallon) herbacides, and in the local store, it's up on the top shelf right next to the dye that is used to tint the herbacide to show where it was applied.

Surficant


Sweet! Thanks, Scott! I searched the site but didn't find this product - evidently wasn't looking for the right things. Appreciate the help. Now to get this thing done tomorrow and see what awaits me Monday evening!


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man yall are quick.

Todd, 2 things I need to clarify.
1. weedtrine is not reward it is a much weaker version of diquat.
We sell reward or redwing same thing different maker- both 37.3% Diquat dibromide. This link even has app rates. http://lakework.com/cart/index.php?p=product&id=123&parent=1
wedtrine - 8.5% diquat- so youre buying water and would have to mix at much higher rate. If you get it I say add 13-26 ozs/gal (see below) to get eh same diquat concentration. I understand if you buy it local to get started no biggie but usually it ends up costing much more. Plus long shelf life and it is great to burn down most any plants around the property.
2. the rates. I use the label for overall amount of product dispersed 1-2 gals/weeded acre but what does that mean? When watermeal is finely spread over the pond it can be an acre, etc. I have used the method I describe for years and with our crew it is used pretty much daily. Just yesterday Mike treated a pond that I wished he choose flouridone but at 8 acre could not afford. Mike said before leaving the lake much of the watermeal was turning white.
The ratio in our low alkalinity water is 3-6 ozs/reward per gallon a good mist will kill anything it touches, watermeal or submersed grass below the surface is still concentrated.
At 1/2 ozs/gal you are spending less than $1 sounds great but tons of work and for resistant watermeal does not work well especially with watermeal blown and stacked up. Go with 3-6 ozs/gal still not much money and your time is worth money. I gotta talk guys down all the time from wanting to use much more than this that too is not necessary. Get my point you can spray and spray and spray at oz if you want but a god mist with 3-6 will kill more easily. Youre not going to get it all in one spray anyways. Spray again in a day or so as you see some green while other is white.

Im just saying I have eradicated watermeal many times with repeat applications but with the se methods not the lesser amount and yes PF good call a good surfactant is well worth adding to the mix at 1 ozs/gal. I cocktail copper all the time but that is to kill algae on the surface of submersed grass like sago with watermeal is does not serve a purpose.


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Great info, Greg, especially about the concentration differences. Exactly what I would expect from you! That is tremendous detail and I really appreciate you sharing with me. Your thinking makes perfect sense about multiple treatments and a slightly heavier concentration of chemicals to get the job done. I had figured that it would take an ongoing effort, into next year as well, to get rid of this crud.

Let me ask you this - I don't want to kill everything else in the pond, though wouldn't mind getting rid of some of it as I've already mentioned in earlier posts. When you are talking about 3 - 6 oz. of Reward doing just that, should I consider a smaller ratio, perhaps 2 - 4 oz. for a more limited effect? Or would doing so reduce the effectiveness on the watermeal? Again, as I've already posted, if I have to sacrifice this year's crop of plants to get rid of the watermeal, I'm in. I just want that stuff gone and I suspect the other weeds will grow back in time.

And to further clarify, would I then want to go with the low end concentration - ~13 oz. - of Weedtrine? Would that be enough to kill the watermeal but spare some of the other plants?

I am going to see if the local TSC carries the Weedtrine (the website says it's available) and surfactant. If they do, I'm going to go that route this morning just so I can get started and maybe see some progress by the time I get back to town Monday evening. What you are saying makes perfect sense about having the stronger chemicals available in the long run, and I will come to you for the purchase of those things. Might be a few weeks, but I'll be in touch.

Thanks again for all the info.


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Greg's right, Reward is a better value just because of the % active ingrediant. Weedtrine D is weak 8 1/2 vs. ov 37% Reward. You just want the Diquat, water is a filler you get from your tap. Monsanto and Roundup just torch people on that scam. If you use Weedtrine D you might want to go 4 oz. and 1/2 oz surfactant. Get about the same % active ingrediant and stickum. The reason I'd go light concentrate first spray is I would try to hit the stacked or thicker areas first. That's can't miss. There is going to be stuff under the surface you are just not going to get unless you saturate. Plus, you can tell if the lower concentrate will work for your application. I am fairly certain it will, but with watermeal, you never know. You can always double or triple up next go round. Just the Weedtrine, not the surfactant.

I am not concerned about $, it's not that much, but usually my first application is per manufacturer's guidelines so I don't go way out there saturating a body of water with too much Diquat in this case. If you can bunch up spraying and don't want to wait a couple of weeks between applications I'd blend in a Cutrine Plus or Scythe. Then you can go hit it again in less than 1 week. Without going with Fluridone you will be spraying quite a bit anyway. But may save your desired vegetation. In my experieince I would really just Fluridone the entire deal and replant whatever plants I wanted back. Just for watermeal, no matter what the cost. How much is your time worth? There is a good chance you could be spraying 6 times or more, and even a slighter chance the Diquat is not all that effective. Make sure you use stickum. Where Greg and I disagree is concentrate % of active ingrediant. .5 % vs 3%. If I wanted better coverage of death I would just spray more of light concentrate. Especially when I am not under the gun with time constraints and know most certainly I will be respraying.

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Todd, you will not kill the plants on the other side of the pond for sure, in the immediate area probably not either. Diquat is a contact herbicide so it has to be fairly concentrated to kill the plant. If the sago is directly under the watermeal might kill it but several feet away not concentrated enough with water dilution.

The higher amount is not going to kill the plants unless around, use the lowest amount I recommend and see below. Good luck my man. Watermeal is my biggest fear for clients.

PF, we disagree on app for sure. As you state what is your time worth. You are putting the same amount of actually product if you spray more of less concentrate. Im within the manufacture recommendations. Also if we are being paid quite well for application I want to make an impact and not have to come back out on their dime to treat again. I hope you see my thinking. In the case of Todd we agree diquat and multiple treatments way to go since saving plants. However he also is clear he does not live there so I want him to get more bang for his time. Still cost is minimal even if going with the high rate of application.


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Todd, just a word of warning. I sprayed Diquat in one end of the pond 2 days ago, because I saw a strand of Milfoil. I wanted to get it before it spread. The wind was blowing a bit, and I thought it wouldn't be a problem. I had the sprayer set on stream. Even so, there was enough mist blown by the wind to kill plants on shore 2 days later. I have 2 dead/dying patches that are about 10' wide by 15' long on shore.


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PF, Greg, and Scott, thanks for the clarifications here. I see where both of you pond pros are coming from in your approaches and see the value in each.

In my case, while I don't live at the farm, I am there regularly as it's pretty close to my home. I don't mind going out regularly and continuing to apply the treatments. However, I want to start making a dent in this stuff so that I can enjoy the pond again before late fall gets here!

The local stores had only Weedtrine D, so I went with that. TSC was out of its normal surfactant, but I found a product at Southern States (Adjuvant) that I picked up. I'm heading out there in just a bit and will mix up the cocktail as you guys have suggested, going with a middle ground so that I see some results by the next time I check the pond on Monday or Tuesday.

Scott, thanks for that info on overspray. I'll definitely keep that in mind!

PF, I kind of like the idea of wiping out all the plants and then replanting something I want, but I'm probably not quite ready to go that route just from a time and resource standpoint. I love the idea of some of the things I've been reading here on the forum such as the water hyacinth, lillies, and the like. It would be awesome to have attractive and desirable vegetation that didn't fall under the term "weeds" out there!

In any event, I'll document this process with pics so others can see whatever the impact ends up being.

Guys, again, thanks for all your input on this. I reiterate the phenomenal value that is represented by this forum and its members. Y'all are the best!


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good luck Todd. Yes scott good advice overspray can kill other terrestrial plants. Like I said we have quite a few clients use the diquat on their land as well.


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Well, the initial spraying was done several hours ago and I'm now out of town till Monday evening when I'll check back in on it. I was only able to reach out about 10 - 12 feet with my sprayer and had to use it in stream fashion due to the breeze that was present. Misting just would not have worked. The good thing about the breeze was that it bunched up the watermeal a bit so I was able to reach perhaps 20 - 25% of it. There is just so much that I could access all of it without getting out in my canoe, which I will probably do the next time I dose it. I did use the full gallon+ on it, though, and went over the entire treated area twice, so I'm hoping to see some results. There will probably be some dead terrestrial plants as there was still some "blowback" even with the sprayer on a stream setting. No biggie, though.

I used a mix of 1 gallon water, 10 oz. Weedtrine D, 1 oz. Cutrine D, and roughly 1/2 oz. of Adjuvant. We'll see how it works and I'll post before and after pics if there's anything worth sharing.

Thanks again, guys! I appreciate the help and advice!


Todd La Neve

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1.5 & .5 ac ponds - LMB, BG, RES, YP, GC, HSB
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Todd, Koi will only eat WM if there is nothing else there.....plus the Koi will pose a big problem later on when they spawn!



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