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You guys should look up the articles "Junk Science".
















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I am a scientist and familiar with "Junk Science". As a scientist, I don't consider much of his science (junk or otherwise). No data or experiments - no kinowledge of objective interpretation. There are lots and lot of scientific journals and even some of these occasionally let a clearly biased paper through. The rest of this stuff is like the news - no accountability for false reporting. Just throw rocks and move on quickly to the next victim. It is a good business - just make something up and sell it to a public looking for something to blaim. Ever see the saleries of the top dogs at these organizations? See how much they pay "victims" of the "villians" to go on tour? Talk about mercenaries...

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I don't think it is supposed to be science - but a critique by a scientist of the junk science that is being produced for political purposes. I see tons of junk science all the time in multiple disciplines. The AFS (American Fisheries Society) recently cautioned about the lack of proper peer review and politics creeping into science.
















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It's the same as a court cases' expert witnesses. You pay enough you get what you want to hear. Both the extremists and the corporations fnd thier paid spokesman, I mean scientists. Even if they have to blatantly lie and falsify results. I think junk science is being kind. Where is the actual truth? Most of the time somewhere in the middle. Sometimes, rarely the product is so bad even the most corrupt are afraid to say it's OK. DDT, dioxin laden herbicides come to mind. But they never made it public, they just quietly told the government, er uh, you might want to discontinue using this product. But we bought so much of this toxic crap, now what? Hey use it in the local government and public sector, they don't know any better. That is not propaganda, that is actual history.

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Funny that you mention DDT. Please do some research and see if you can estimate how many human lives DDT has saved and continues to save in 3rd-world countries (malaria). Given the choice, my guess is that you might put up with the environmental risks if your life was in the balance. (2004 scientific paper on DDT: http://www.jpshouse.com/DDT.pdf)

By the way, "consensus science" is not science, even if it is a consensus among scientists. Science is based on evidence. There was a time when most scientists believed that the sun rotated around the earth, and that maggots spontaneously generated from dead animals. The folks that found that mad cow disease is caused by a prion (misfolded protein) were also ridiculed for a while. One scientist can overturn the consensus with a single well constructed experiment if it can be repeated in other labs. There are dishonest people in any field, but if you rely on replicated scientific data, its hard to get fooled. The rest is faith. Faith is just fine. We all have faith in something (I hope); just don't call it science.

With regards to organic food, I prefer to have mine grown as far from animal waste as possible to avoid pathogens. I have no problem with others making a different choice, but notice that there are no health claims on organic food. This is because the USDA has the responsibility to enforce truth in labeling. This is why they came up with a set of rules for organic production. Prior to these rules, the consumer could not tell what they were getting when they purchased food labeled as organic (it is also funny that organic producers use mostly inorganic pesticides like copper compounds that never dissapate in the soil). Organic food, like kosher food, ensures that the food was produced in a certain manner, but does not provide any provable health benefit. Lots of folks keep trying to show these benefits, but so far, they have not had any luck.

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Fire ants are toxic. I bet Rachel Carson was never attacked by a swarm of them.


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Yes, good ol DDT, we should bring that back. The stuff it did not kill it was absorbed into and killed whatever ate it. Very similar to gly, the most widespread herbicide, DDT was the most widespread pesticide. People even had DDT shampoos for lice. But like anything else that kills organisms, the killer potential remained hidden, but deadly. And no, this is not propaganda, but proven science from world expert chemists. Duke has had extensive studies on DDT and it's destructive abilities. It kills everything, and then some more. Does not take much either. Did DDT save lives? Or did it kills millions? Could or is something safer being used? Please don't try to defend DDT, you lose credibility.

Why do you make the assumption all organic produce is contamniated? It's not animal waste that gets in it, it is gly, and many other everywhere pesticides and herbicides, that are now just about in everything. And yes, organic produce contains less than nonorganic. I have manures in my raspberry patch only. Everything else is compost only. Earthworms, red worms and nitecrawlers. I trust my home grown produce to feed my family because I know what happens with it. I hand pick off insects. I don't use fertilizers, or herbicides either. I even have a french drain to seperate my yard's water from neighbor's.

Let's all sing the praises of DDT! We want to bring it back! DDT for all!

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PF you should check on DDT first RAH is correct. Check the science not the politics.
















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Originally Posted By: The Pond Frog
Let's all sing the praises of DDT! We want to bring it back! DDT for all!


TPF, you need some? I just happen to have about a 5# bag in the barn. Or is it a 10# bag? grin


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Unfortunately we'll never be able to separate politics and science, look at the global warming debate, it always comes down to money.
I don't know the all the facts about DDT but too many times something is pushed because of the large profits to be made instead of restrained use were it is the only answer to save human lives.
Human nature is never gonna change, be ready for the coming crisis.



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Someone has been sipping the organic C2H5OH...

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I'm not a big fan of Ethanol, just another subsidized gimmic.



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Not refering to you

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DDT has been proven deadly, not by junk science but by world renowned chemists and biologists both. One of the major problems is it really is not water soluble. In fact, and again, this is fact it is water insoluble. But the real killer is it is fat soluble. And it destroys at a cellular level. It attacks the plasma membrane of a cell, and causes it to go haywire. Even better with the properties, it is subject to biomagnification. It sticks around in everything that it comes in contact with, and then get passed along when the higher organisms eat it. The higher up the food chain, the more you get. And fish, who are loaded with fat cells just soak it up. So do people. It collects in real neat places, like adrenal glands, testicles, liver, kidneys and woman's breast, and human breast milk. Again, not scare tactics but proven university findings. And if you want a historical context, DDT is what started all of the overreaction to everything else. Sorry guys but anything that causes cellular leakage can also lead to cells going haywire. There could even be a link to breast cancer. DDT is one of the worst chemical concoctions ever foisted on the unknowing public. But at a time it was also thought to be a wonder pesticide. Kind of like gly today.

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Saying it over and over again doesn't make it true. However, banning DDT was a great boon for multinational pesticide companies because its patent had run out and was dirt cheap. The same thing is true for glyphosate. It is no longer patented and its price is falling like a rock. If it gets banned, companies can sell patented materials for much higher prices to fill the gap. However, the regulatory agencies learned from their huge mistake in banning DDT, so it is unlikely that glyphosate will get banned.

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Thank you RAH. If only someone could have spoken for the many millions dead from malaria.
















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What is true is that is cirriculum at every university here in the US. Ivy League schools, Duke, Ohio State. Not exactly junk science. Is it true, it is fact. DDT is a maligant pesticide that can stick around in water for decades. Any pond person with any kind of conscience would know this.

Americans were ingesting this daily. Residue from produce, contaminated water supplies, meat and fish. If anyone disputes this ask any Freshman taking chemistry or biology, or ask the local university. And yes, it did accumulate until saturation. Undisputed fact by world experts.

I heard the malaria comment how many times now? It was the wrong or is the wrong chemical to use because of it's staying power and environmentally destructive abilities. How many Americans are dying from Malaria today with DDT banned? It was scientic ignorance that put the poison out there and then the same old we have to make a buck, screw the environment and people's health for now. Cigarette companies made trillions and still are dealing death. Used to be chic to smoke. All the movie stars did, tv commericials were about as misleading as you can get to bring in new addiction victims. Cancer sticks, laden with toxics and addictive chemicals. But hey, they have to make a buck. Luckily for Americans all these buck makers are taking thier act to third world countries. Have some DDT, then smoke a few packs, Maybe that 2 year old chain smoker got a double dose from Mom's breast milk and that three pack a day habit. My grandma was a 4 pack a day Pall Mall smoker. She paid the ultimate price for someone has to make a buck. Now the worm has turned, commercials show the grim reaper giving out free samples. And the corporations keep making those bucks.

Anyone want to make a friendly wager what I say about DDT is fact? I'm up for that.

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DDT is persistent but not as persistent as copper fungicides commonly used on "organic" farms, nor as stable as table salt. Malaria was excluded from th US by wiping out mosquitoes and draing swamps and wetlands. Destroying any animal's habitat is a very effective way to devastate a population. Scientific evidence is data, not rhetoric. Read our history books and those of England and see how they agree (or not) considering the revolutionary war. I sat in these ecology courses and heard how wolves controlled rabbit populations and created the cycling of both populations. Then I read the scientific papers showing that wolves have vitually no impact on rabbit populations. Diseases cycle through the rabbit populations when densities are great enough which affects wolf populations. There are lots of popular myths taught in our schools including our universities. This is not science. Science is data, not opinion. But heck, neopaganism is a popular faith, so enjoy. You have lots of company!

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After all my years in the industry, I can actually say that this DDT rant is maybe right up there at the very top for its incorrect information presented in such a well thought out manner. One joy of the internet is bad information can be published and rapidly spread.

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