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B'ski , Sunil has a point. He is just trying to save you from the anguish. Once the fish get some size and summer gets hear you will find the fish, the Liberty Ferry and beach calling you. At that point those projects will get way behind. :p ;\)
















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Brettski, you dinnerware-hoarding slacker!!!

If you would stop wasting time here on the forum, you would already be done with your project!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, ewest is right on.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

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 Quote:
Originally posted by bz:
Where do you Brettski get the time for all these projects. You must only work one day a week!
You're confused, bz, that's Bruce.

Brettski has simply utilized modern 5S, 5Y, 3P, JIT, and Lean manufacturing techniques to get 500% efficiency out of a minimally sized workforce (himself and Donna-ski).


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...Ewest; no need to try to cover for Sunil's inability to tell one beer from another because he peeled off all the labels. I know he means well. If not, I have a Nesco roaster with his name on it.
...Theo; thank you for recognizing breakthrough levels of efficiency. I'll never forget Dski in the 95 degree heat of summer while we are striking off the concrete for the boat launch. It was music to my ears as she screamed over at me "I am NEVER doing this again; this sucks worse than drywall". I gave her a raise.

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That's it! I discovered his secret. I just need to get Mrs. BZ to work like that Dski. Then my projects will get done. I must not pay enough. She's got all the credit cards and the check book. What more can I do Brettski? Maybe I'll buy her something nice, like a fish feeder. Will that work?


Gotta get back to fishin!
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 Quote:
I just need to get Mrs. BZ to work like that Dski. Then my projects will get done.
bz, man...you've done enough of these things to know that projects are never really done. The key is letting her be the boss. Ooowee, did she tear into me a few times when I would mess up the finish while striking off the pad.
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The concrete driver dumped a couple yards into the forms for us to work on. He got out of the truck, and walked over to Dski as she was bustin' hump sawing the 2 x 6 across the 12' pad (uphill, no less). He walked right up to her and said "here, let me help" as she ignored him and kept on sawing. He leaned over, hand out to grab the 2 x 6 and says "really, let me do this". Remember Gort on The Day the Earth Stood Still? She turned her head and shot 2 evil-eye laser beams straight at his face. She gritted her teeth like Dirty Harry, squinted her eyes and delivered "I can do it myself!" He stepped back and looked at me like it was MY pit-bull that got out of the cage. I just shrugged and kept my hands on the 2 x 6 as it suddenly surged into double time.
Wait 'til he looks in the mirror tomorrow morning and sees Klaatu barada nikto laser etched into his forehead.

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 Quote:
Originally posted by Brettski:
DONE DEAL

Green treated 2 x 6 x 8' and 16'. I'll plan for installation over Memorial Day...I hope. That'll give 'em some time to dry out a bit. In the meantime, they will stay packed up tight to see if that helps to alleviate twist and bow while they cure.
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Time's up! It's been about 2-1/2 months since I banded up the bunk to begin the cure experiment . I popped the bands today.

Out of 70 pc of 2 x 6 x 8', I rejected 19. Out of 35 pc of 2 x 6 x 16', I rejected 9. Here's how it shakes out.
The 8 footers are all cut in half at 48" long for the piers (a little long for the application; will be trimmed to length after installation). I sighted each of the 8' and tossed bad stuff to the side, cut the keepers in half, and loaded them onto the trailer. It seemed that the top row had the most rejects. I worked with boards that show reasonable bow (rainbow when they are flat), but rejected twist or excessive camber (banana). Total reject for 8' stock is 27%. (about 5 were unbelieveable!)
The 16 footers are used full length. I am a bit more tolerant of twist and camber because there is enough mass for me to "push it around". An unusual flaw that was prominent with 16' was an up/down waviness of the flatness over the length. This can also be tolerated a little since I can "bull" them a little, but there were a couple that looked like a kiddie roller coaster. Total reject for 16' stock is 26%.
I have enough short pc to complete the launch dock and do about 1/2 the beach dock. I am 3 pc short of the 16' stock required to do the deck at the end of the launch dock; will try to work with 3 of the best rejects to finish. Bottom line: I am confident of completing the launch dock and deck and putting a dent in the beach dock. The launch dock/deck is far more important at this point of development.
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Before I summarize my experiment, I should explain my motives. I plan to use hidden decking fasteners to hold the decking down. I want to avoid surface fasteners like screws and nails. I am using Tiger Claw TC2 stainless steel fasteners . I wanted to not only allow the wet PT lumber to shrink before installation, but also identify "twisters and benders" BEFORE I install them. I don't hold alot of hope that these fasteners will hold back a twisting 2 x 6. So, for those of you DIY deck builders, here is my opinion of anal retentive air cure preparation of P-T lumber before installation.
Would I do it that way again? Yes, but I believe that laying them out on a flat surface to cure would likely do as well. Holding them in a tight bundle does not, IMHO, affect them if they are planning to move. In essence, my cure experiment worked in that it allowed them to dry out some, but had little effect of "forcing" them to remain straight. I would not just pack them up in a tight bundle without spacers and expect decent, consistent drying. The reject rate is about 25%. If you need 75 arrows, buy 100 and save the receipt.

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That's a horrible yield, Brettski. Package all those rejects up and ship them to me. :rolleyes: I will dispose of them for you at no charge, since you're a friend and all.

Looking at that "after" pile picture - that looks real good. I would be extremely happy with that amount and level of curvature.


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Sounds like pretty normal results. I have a client that I'm building a house for with almost half the PT 2x's warping beyond usability. We have a stack that's building to return, and I have them keeping me in supply with enough to move forward. We only pick out a few at a time and look for the lightest/dryest ones in the stack.

Once installed, they hold there shape pretty good, but I'm not doing any of those hidden fasteners. I like to use 3 inch screws right thought the boards. The screw countersinks itself and are rock solid.

Eddie


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Alright, round 1 of the Tiger Claw hidden decking fasteners challenge is in the history books. Great results, lotsa extra labor.
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We hoofed our bunk of 2x6 lumber to the project and started with 30' of dock at the launch. It came together very well, but took about 3 times as long as if we had just buzzed the screws in from the top. Granted, a good portion of this additional time is me doing my standard overkill of trying to make it perfect, but the Tiger Claw installation is pretty labor intensive. Nothing really muscle-challenging...just alot of steps to get a bond.
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The Tiger Claw clips seem whimpy to hold one in your hand. They're 16 Ga stamped stainless steel. I have never used these types of fasteners before, so I didn't know what to expect.

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They come with a plastic installation block. The prongs on one side of the clip slips inside slots in the face of the block. The opposing prongs are now set at the correct height and ready to be rapped into the leading edge of the last deck board fastened.

I had real reservations on this plastic setting block. It performed flawlessly, taking every hammer blow, both square and glancing. In fact, each 100 pc box of the fasteners has one of these blocks in with it, so D-ski kept 2 of them active, rotating with a fresh clip charge.
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A #8 x 2" stainless steel screw is then buzzed in at an approx 45 degree angle.

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We have 3 stringers running the length of this dock section, so one clip per stringer.

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There is some bull work required, and it is another one of the major time consumers. The next board is set by slamming it onto the prongs by use of an 8 lb sledge hammer. A shorter section of sacrificial 2-by stock is used to buffer the blows without damage to the deck board. Naturally, it is very important to have the bonding edge of this next board tight to the stringers as the prongs enter, so standing on this next deck board as the sledge swings helps to mitigate small amounts of bow and twist.-
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Overall opinion
I have built a fair amount of PT decks in my time. All have been screwed from the top with SS screws. They have all fared well, but the riddled surface detracts a point or two from the overall appearance. These clips leave no trace...nada. They take alot of extra time to install; this is the price you pay. Past that, though, when those prongs are set, it is one study little pc of hardware. The screw really does tighten it up like a banjo string. At the end of the installation, it looks fantastic. All the bonds between the deck boards and the stringers is tight and the seams are tight. I was worried that the protruding screw head might hinder a tight seam between deck boards. Enter Mr 8# sledge; good night. Oh yeah, I bought that Bo-Wrench gadget. Dang, it works good. I was a great help in squeezing out a little bit of the camber (the banana) I did have to deal with. Granted, it's next to impossible to remove camber on a 2 x 6 that's only 4' long, but it made that little bit of difference a perfectionist seeks. Yep, and the subsequent installation of the Tiger Claw clip and screw cranked it down and held it back.
The real test will be down the road as the summer sun further dries the deck boards. I expect the width to shrink; this is normal. Based on what I saw of the strength of these clips, I don't expect any problems with the installation as the cracks between the boards widen. The real question will be if the thickness shrinks (and I expect it probably will to some degree). How much of that tight, square bond will yield? If it does and the boards twist...hmmm. TBD.
Finally, another helpful tip for those considering use of these fasteners. I purchased them at Menards for $25 per 100 pc. They did not come with screws. The manufacturer does offer kits that come complete with all the screws. Home Depot lists it, but had make a special order in my area. I priced the complete kit out and found savings by buying the generic SS screws in 5# boxes from Menards, once again on sale. My generic screws worked just fine, but I noted that the heads protruded when seated. I wonder is the Tiger Claw screws have a slightly different head that would seat a little deeper within the clip hole...? Also, the Tiger Claw screw heads are finished in black oxide, as are the clips, to further hide them.

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Brettski,

Do the deck boards end up with absolutely no gap between them? Conventional wisdom (Which I usually ignore!) is that you need a space between the deck boards. This is to prevent buckling when the boards get wet and expand.

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Although I seasoned the wood in my aerated bundle, it still has a good amount of moisture and cure remaining. I learned a number of decks ago that when working with PT decking that is fairly fresh, install the boards as tight together as possible. When they cure and dry out, the gap will be perfect. I remember one of my rookie decks where I used the standard 10d - 16d nail spacing technique. By the end of the summer, the gap was too wide by 1 nail's width.
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The Tiger claw clip does provide for a very small gap since the body of the clip is 1/16" thick. This, and some of the boards were not perfectly straight, thus inducing some gaps.
I pushed these suckers as close together as I could. This is one of the very few blessings of working with PT wood; no time spent trying to create a perfect spacing.

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Brettski,

Thanks for all the information on the install of your decking. I've never used hidden fasteners, so it was very interesting to read your comments on them. I look forward to hearing how well they hold up over time.

Don't forget to give us more pictures of the deck!!!!

Eddie


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 Quote:
Originally posted by eddie_walker:

...Don't forget to give us more pictures of the deck!!!!

Eddie
...like I might forget. Here ya go, Mr Walker.
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Please forgive the stupid blue tarp roof. The sun protection during construction far out-weighs the dorky appearance.

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The hardest working woman in pond business...

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Wow, it was a was a real cage match getting everything tight and flat, but the results are rewarding. It tears me up to think that this is probably the best it will ever look.

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I have an opportunity to put a good finish on this thing before it fades to gray. What are the recommendations and durability experiences? In my mind, I'm thinking cleaning it up with a brightener and laying down a good, transparent stain. If I do use the brightener, it's gonna wash into the pond. I gotta think that stuff is eco-friendly....right?
What's the finish buzz?
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(ps; next time I pick up the hammer, it's trusses and metal roofing)

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 Quote:
Originally posted by Brettski:
Please forgive the stupid blue tarp roof.]
Sorry Brettski, but that blue tarp is unforgivable.

All seriousness aside, that's just lovely! I like the heavy beam look. Can't wait to see the finished product!

Thompson't Water Seal will keep the deck looking new for a while, but needs re-doing every year or 2.

The only finish I know that would withstand the UV is spar varnish. The down side to varnish is, moisture can get trapped under it.

Weathered wood has a charm of its own. If no moisture stands, that treated wood should out last you.

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I say go natural. Grey is beautiful - with treated lumber as well as with hair.


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Very nice. What are the dimensions of the main dock? The ramp?

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Thank ya, RobA. We been bustin' hump.
The approach dock is 4' x 30'. The deck is 16' x 14'. It will be under a 20' x 18' roof (2' overhang all the way around). The roof begins after we re-generate a little bit more hump to bust.
(there's also 4' x 32' more dock across the pond at a sand beach area; hopin' for more hump by this fall)

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Brettski, I love that headless deck look, I am thinking about using the Tigerclaw on my upcomming deck/pier project ...could you tell me how you had to attach the first and last boards???

Thanks
Kevin

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Shep,
You betcha.
It's alot of extra work, but I think it's pretty cool looking; nice and clean.
Per the Tiger Claw instructions (and practical thinking), the first board is attached on the outside edge with SS screws. I used #10 x 3". Then, the inside edge of this same first board is attached with the Claws. The last board is just the reverse. The ends of each of the boards can be handled in couple different ways. If there is an overhang of the deck board at the outside joist of at least 3/4", the Claws will work just fine screwed dead center into this last joist. In my case, the framing was laid out with the joist framework at 16' out-to-out and I used 16' long decking. Hence, the deck boards (which are usually about 1/2" - 3/4" long from the mill) were pretty close to flush with the outside of the joist framing. Instead of using screws along the edge at the ends of these deck boards, I shifted the Claw to be off-center of the joist below; shifted toward the center of the deck but leaving the screw hole about 1/4" short of missing the joist below completely. This tucked the clip in so the outside edge of it was just about even with the outside edge of joist framework. Then, I secured the clip by running the screw in a little tilted to grab the meat of the joist below. It worked good.
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footnote; I mis-applied a couple of these end clips, installing them with a little more hanging over the outside of the frame than I thought. When it came time to trim the board ends to even 'em up, I knicked a couple of the Claws with the circular saw blade. Good thing it was a cheapie blade cuz it's junk now.

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Thanks for your help. How far apart are your floor joist?
I am still trying to figure out how my joist will all come together and be attached to my pipe. My pond filled in a weekend while I was out of town so I was unable to do the set in concrete thing. I now have 3" sch 40 galvanized pipe 10' long with 3" augers attached. I have four installed with five remaining. It is truly a family affair to screw a 10' pipe into clay standing in 4' of water

Thanks
Kevin

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I put our joists at 24" o.c. This kind of mandates use of full 2-by stock for the decking, so we used 2 x 6 instead of 5/4 decking stock. Besides, the actual $ upcharge for going to the full 2-by stock was negligiable. For installation details, check out this link .
I mentioned it before, but I will say it again...that Bo-Wrench makes a difference. It cost about $45 deld from Amazon.com and I don't regret one penney of it. The thing works. The last thing that I did not have in my tool arsenal, and it would have helped some, is a board tweaker. A breaker bar with "U" shaped grip at the business end to slip over a twisted board and allow flattening it out to remove the propeller twist. This is kinda important if there is any twist in a board as it enters the prongs of a Tiger Claw clip. Why? Because the height at which the clip tip enters the board is the height at which that board will remain for good. If the board is twisted and elevated off of the supporting joist below...well, you know.

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Great information, thanks again, and thanks for taking the time to post all the photos and your project step by step for the rest of us!!

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Nice job B-ski! As for a deck coating, Dwight mentions Durabak in this thread;

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=004359;p=1

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Thanks, Russ. You oughta know me by now...A-R to the n'th degree....yessirree.
I did see that thread that Dwight is growing. I appreciate the suggestion, but don't see that stuff maintaining the wood ambiance that we seek. Now, if after a few years the entire deck turns to a dingy, twisted, mildewed pile of sticks, I will consider the Durabak to spruce it up. (no offense, Dwight ;\) ).

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