Pond Boss Forums AQUATIC VEGETATION Balance of plants in the environment Ponds Out Of Control

Hello everyone

I am new and I am just going to lay out to the experts my most recent encounter with ponds. I have just started as an Aquatics position but I did not investigate before I took the position. I have been able to get the chems under control in our pools and spas but I am having a heck of a problem with the ponds. The biggest concerns are that this company gives me around $400/month to maintain 5 ponds that are about 100' X 50' and 15" deep. They have motors to circulate the water but no filters. When it rains, the drains are pointed into the ponds so a lot of dirt are in them. I noticed that there is a film on the bottom about 1"-3" thick and it should not be disturbed because a black cloud will form. I thought I had it figured out when I treated one of the ponds with a large amount of cal-hypo as suggested by a Leslie rep. It was cloudy brown for a few days but then it cleared up pretty good but not completely given that it was dark green to begin with. On the 7th day I added a pack of Otter Blue Shield and it gave it the sky blue color that the manager was looking for. The problem is that it only lasted about a week. Now its dark green again. Another issue is that this is an apartment complex that houses about 800-900 adults and CHILDREN which love to play and throw trash in the ponds, pool, and spas. There are also pine trees around these ponds and it seem that they let off something new every other week in to them. I will have been fighting with these ponds for 3 month next week and thought I would have figured out by now. I was wrong. Can anyone correct me?

Thanks

Welcome GP, Until the others chime in i'd like to ask if you have done any water testing to see what you have? Any testing results you have and can share will help others offer a solution.

I'm assuming that there will be no fish or plants in these pools of water, correct? And that they are lined with a rubberized liner or made from concrete?

Make a video, Ponds Gone Wild!

$400 a month after buying chemicals, dyes and other requirements you will be working for free. Nor Cal or So Cal?

PF, I was hoping you'd see this post.

Talk about underbidding, or underfunded. Plus having kids around really ties your hands. No filters, not exactly a dream job by any means. First you got to demuck them, maybe clorinate them heavy if no fish or stuff. Tough spot, I'd have come in a lot higher than that or maybe passed because of liability with kids.

The other thing to think about is that he could be employeed by the company that owns the ponds and his budget for pond supplies is $400.00/month not including his salary.

You could not pay me enough to deal with this description. Why in the world would you even have or build something like that? Then divert runoff into it, have no filtration and kids throwing whatever they feel like into it.

Even with a salary on top of the $400 budget you are talking money pit ponds and labor intensive with no end in sight because all of the problems are inherent with the design and set up. Way too large, way too shallow, you should not divert sediment runoff into any residential pond. I am suprised there is not a huge mosquito and algae problem also. If someone contacted me on this I would tell them to fill them in and make a rock garden, plant area and kid's playground out of them.

what happened to you green ponds, come on back.

i like the idea of getting a water test first.

Yes, I do testing every time I work. Usually only pH. These ponds are so unpredictable at times. A morning test will read 7.5 and 4-5 hrs later it will be 8.5. I am constantly adding muratic acid....

I heard once upon a time there fish in there ponds but I can't see how. There are plants, bush type, and pine trees and other types of trees around these ponds that are constantly dropping leaves, cones, twigs, pollen, etc. in these ponds. Your right, they are made of concrete.

Yes the $400 are for the chems only and I am in Central California.

I don't know why all this has happen to this apt complex's ponds. They have been mishandled for so long and now I get to try and revive them. The company does not have the equipment to be able to empty these ponds one at a time and thoroughly clean them. They expressed their concern of cost to refill them? I can't give them what they want (crystal blue) without a major overhaul. Yeah you don't have to be surprised, there is a ton of algae. I tried to purchase a 100 lb tub of algae killer for $350 due to extra funds that rolled over from the previous month but they did not approve the PO for it and said that cal-hypo will do the same. But the cal-hypo eliminates the dye too.

They have been mishandled because they are most assuredly poorly designed. However I applaud your efforts and perseverence. Tough spot my friend, I do this kind of thing every day and yet I can't think of any solution other than a complete overhaul and redesign. Shallow large ponds without filtration are algae nightmares. And you solve one problem but create another. Plus the obvious extremely limited budget, and cost too much too refill? I'd counter, it's going to cost way more not too drain and sanitize. You almost have to make them no life poison ponds just to get them not to crash. Your a better man than me Gunga Din.

Just thinking out loud here.

Could you rent a trash pump at a local rental place, suck out the water & junk, then pressure wash the pond & refill? Maybe do one a month?

I don't know what your water rates are, but each 100' x 50' x 15" deep pond is .14 acre foot of water, or 46,750 gallons.

It sounds like you are trying to do the work with your hands tied for you by the purse string holders.

They can either spend the $$ up front to do it right, or spend a lot of $$ and piddle away at it. It probably would be cheaper for them in the long run to do it right the first time. If you can't get them on board to roll their unused budget over from month to month, then I see an ulcer in your future! Been there, done that and still have the bumps on my forehead from banging it into the brick wall......

Can you explain to me how these ponds are poorly designed. I know I threw out there 100' X 50' X 15" but these ponds are not perfectly square. Is it because of the drains? Your right, it is one problem after another...

My hope is that they would be willing to listen to change and for the better. Its all about the bottom line with this company. This is what makes it such even more. I tried to get blue prints on these ponds from the manager so that I would have a accurate numbers but they don't have them. They have another property and the manager over there told my manager that ours are roughly 350,000-400,000 gallons of water. I don't believe it and since there are so many curve to these ponds I am just going to have to break each one into pieces to get the best calculation. Depth is another thing. Some areas are so polluted on the bottom that it is uncertain what is the actual depth. I get reading from 12" - 16" throughout. I am living a nightmare.

GP, I would presume the comment of a poorly designed pond was the lack of forthought as to runoff and no catch filters, but i could be wrong. Am i righ that you say these average 12-15 foot in depth or is it 12-15 inches? I am going to presume you are talking inches. That being so, i wonder what the average temps are? Could there be any algae eating fish (or other animals) capable of surviving the heat from such shallow water in california's heat along with the toxic runoff? Another thought is if you were able to drain and spray them clean, where would the stuff go? Is there a low area safe for it to go to? Would you have to have it shipped off to some decon site and scrubbed clean before you could legally dump it? This is afterall california along with its over the top regulations.

What is the purpose of these ponds?

Green Ponds, can you find your ponds on google planimeter ? If so, follow the directions to get an area. To go around curves, you can make many small straight lines.

Design flaws are all interlocked, and also make each other worse.

Flaw #1. No filtration. On a body of water that size filtration is almost a requirement. And in your setting, strainers and filters. Even a skimmer.

Flaw #2. Drainage aimed at pond. Without filtration you can't have junk and sediment flowing in. Now you have a sediment catchment, with no filtration, and no way to remove the sediment and other nasties that come along with runoff, mainly fertilizer leftovers.

Flaw #3. Too shallow. Without filtration, and with drainage aimed at pond there is no room for lack of depth. The sediment displaces a large percentage of open water. Chemicals coming in feed algae, again, unable to be filtered. And the lack of depth has a propensity to overheat and kill anything good, like fish, and just make it a sediment laden algae pond.
Also shallow ponds are known as evaporation ponds, because the water gets so hot, it enhances evaporation.

Then you have so many constraints, especially financially, you cannot overcome all of the flaws. They are similar to French reflection ponds. Concrete lined and shallow, formal. But they have turned into water treatment sludge ponds.

What I would do, one pond at a time, is introduce Water Hyacinth. You don't have any outflow to any public waters. They will address three issues, filtration, algae and sludge. They will even reduce evaporation and water temp. Pretty green foilage and lavender flowers. But under them the water is getting crystal clear, the black bottom is getting used up, and algae is getting blocked and drawn into the roots. Then throw in some Gambusia. Maybe 100. Try this with one pond. It would almost be free. Before Winter hits pull out all of the plants and toss them into a compost pile. Labor intensive but with the money saved you could afford the labor. You should have no algae, little or no muck and very clear water. Tint it hard, a little tint goes a long way in a shallow pond. That is what I would do.

rcn11thacr

Now I understand and agree with you. I heard yesterday from the landscaper that the reason for the runoff were because of cost to have them directed toward the roadway. I spoke with the maintenance manager on bringing the motor from out of their well's and adding filter but he said because of the area that it would not be wise. People, children and adults, just do not know how to respect the property. As far as depth, your correct, it is in inches. I also was told that they pulled out a ton of gunk some time ago when the odor became unbearable in one of the ponds and they decided to drain it. I didn't ask how they disposed of it, I'll find out tomorrow. Oh yeah the maintenance sup. said before they drained it that they first dumped 150,000 lbs of calcium hypochlorite in it. I do not believe this though...

I suppose to beatify the scenery.

esshup

Thanks I will check this out.

It sounds like they were trying to manage the ponds like a swimming pool without the pool filter or skimmer.......

4 semi-truck loads of the stuff? Where the heck in their $400/month budget did they find the $$ to do that?? I'd like to hear from the Maintenance Supervisor how much they spent on that!

The Pond Frog

I am going to speak with my manager and see what I may do about diverting these drains. As far as a filter, I already know that this will not happen. I did some research on the plant Water Hyacinth and I like what I see. How will these plants handle me adding chems: muratic acid, cal-hypo, otter shield dye, etc. or will I need these chems anymore?

esshup

I am going on my 3rd month of employment with this company. The first month the ponds were budgeted for around $700 with a rollover from the previous month. April budget was for $350 and May budget will $500. As the summer approaches the budget will increase but I feel that will be due to the increase of chems needed. I will ask the sup on the cost of the removal. I believe that they may have used Capital monies or some other account $ to do this job...

GP, I like the out of the box thinking of pond frog, and he is certainly more knowledgeable than I. I would not have known to suggest what he did, however it seems to make sense. I'd give one pond a try like he suggested. It will be almost free due to the fact that you can probably find the plants and gambusa in the same local BOW. Use the money saved from that pond to do something totally different in the others. Whatever you decide to do...i'd recomend you keep extensive notes. Notate what day you did something, how much of what you used, what the effect was, etc. Sooner or later you are bound to figure out something that works. Your notes will help you retrace the steps and reproduce it. As well as be able to tell us what you did that screwed it up and made it worse!

These ponds were designed as mirrors for reflections of their building designs I gathered. Some fangled idea from an architect.

Obviously they collect the rain water, the runoffs and erosion,they are too shallow to be natural ponds, nature is claiming them. So I suggest they should add 6-8 inches of top soil, plant them permanently with wetland plants, hire a landscape architect that knows aquatic and wetland plants to draw a plan that emulates a natural wetland.

No more chemicals, no more spending of budget in a chemical soup trying to make nature's wet bowl look like a mirror.

Instead, water purified as it runs away from human's presence. A mini wildlife refuge (kids wont wade in the swamp much!) The sediments are going to keep feeding the beautiful indigenous plant species, newts and frogs will appear, then a reclaimed habitat, a chance to start new and fresh!

Long term investment instead of short term spending... my two cents!

Yes, that is about all they can be, reflection ponds. I still would go with one low budget water hyacinth. Unless the water is way, way out there like a toxic, or acidic soup they will work and probably thrive. Multiply like crazy and should be free. They are used industial for water treatment and sludge ponds for water purification. They are natures filters, and I use them here and there with success. Plus they are free and look pretty cool when they form dense mats and bloom.

Also I think converting another p nd into a bog or water aquatic plant area is a great idea. The water hyacinth pond is going to need a place to put whatever dead material is left on the bottom before the rainy season. Get soem shallow lilies, for the deeper parts, some nice marginals and a bunch of callas, canna and flowering lilies and irises for little islands you could make everywhere from the excessive runoff sediment. This is actually sounding like a fun project, but still, not enough funds. I think you have to go way out of the box here with low budget fixes and trial and error. You could end up with 5 real nice but unique ponds. The reflective pond concept is just not going to work the way it is set up.

They all are merely sediment traps and algae farms now as it stands.

There should be no need for chemicals, as they will eventually cover most if not all of the surface. That will prevent algae and at the same time the roots purify the water underneath and eat up the sludge on the bottom. When the rainy seasons are approaching you may want to remove them, or may not. They do die back ugly in cold weather. I would get them all out clean out the muck on the bottom to be used as compost. That would be an annual event. Let them collect rainwater and runoff and start again early next Spring. Could be an annual cycle. Just one pond though, see how it works. Should be a real cost saver and something nice for the rresidents to look at when they bloom.

Any new updates?

Pond Frog

I had a tuff time finding the water hyacinths but I did. An apartment complex in the area has them and gave me a few. I grabbed 4 of them and they are about the size of a cantaloupe. For the first 3 weeks or so they seemed to be okay. During the past week I have been concentrating on getting our pools (3) and spas (2) ready for the Health Inspector. Anyhow, they now look dead? They turned brown with no color left in them. Should I try a larger quantity of them. These ponds are approximately 16-18" deep. I have some wire baskets that are typically used for tomato plants that I want to trim down in order to isolate the water hyacinths together and far out of reach of humans (somewhere) in the middle of the pond. What do you think or recommend? And thanks again.

That is unreal. Too bad you are a ways from me I know places that are completely overrun with them, take all you want for free. And they are so congested the plants fight for sunlight and get almost 2 feet tall. I would not worry about caging them up, you should not have to.

I would be way more worried about what killed them off. You must have some nasties in that water to do that. To be honest, I have never seen water bad enough to kill them. Never. You either are going to have to get that water back to neutral or get the Washington Monument or the Taj Mahal behind the ponds.

Cold water temp will knock them back, but not kill them. What's your surface temp and what is in your pond water as far as treatment chemicals?

I did find a place but it took some time and they are willing to allow me to have as much as I want. The reason behind caging them up is to prevent the residents and their children from removing them from the pond. This particular pond has given me some trouble lately. I usually use cal-hypo (around 2lbs bi-weekly)to lighten it up when it becomes very dark green. I balance the sky rocking pH continuously with muratic acid and keep it between 7.2 - 7.6. Footage-wise this same pond is about 40' X 60' and around 16" - 18" in depth. What in the world makes the pH in these ponds go up anyhow? The reason that I say that I have been having trouble with this particular pond is because it is the only one that has not lighted up? After I pulled out the dead water hyacinths I pour 3lbs of cal-hypo into it and still no lighter shade, I'm boggled. I'll try and get the temp out of it tomorrow when I return to work. Thanks again.

That Cal Hypo or shock just about kills everything. That and muriatic acid I doubt any plant could survive. If you want hyacinths to survive I would think you are going to have to refrain from that stuff and hopefully let it dissipate away.
I see your point on the cages I would hope kids and people would just leave them alone. Probably wishful thinking on my part. I would think some kind of fertilizer runoff is knocking your PH out but could be many things, even organic. Do you have sediment on the bottom of this pond?

Help with coontail.

Coontail. What chemical to use, how to do it, is it too late if water temps are in the 80's, etc. Any ideas?

I replied to Coontail in that specific thread.