Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose SMB/YP/RES/HSB/Male BG pond....

Guy's, while PS's don't average the size of RES, they can grow much bigger than those 8" pygmy PS's, also they can tolerate much colder temps. than RES.(nice to know incase global warming doesn't kick in).
From what I have read the consensus seems to be 2 to 3 thousand eggs per PS female, not nearly what BG have.

Some day I've got to get you guys some mountain PS's, up here there are no BG, too whimpy.

I think we need Dave Willis to chime in here as I'm going on his advice IIRC regarding PS as a suitable companion panfish for a pond with SMB [or other fish with limited gape like HSB or YP] as the apex predator. He discouraged adding anything but RES as PS are more fecund, like the BG option. He also noted that PS max out at 8" up North in SD. Not sure how that compares to NY, but I would have thought favorably. I have no doubts someone of your skills can grow them larger, however!
AP - I have no experience with PS and you do, so I completely acknowledge and yield to you there. However, I want to make certain Josh is aware of the potential imbalance risk that exists when selecting a panfish for a pond that lacks LMB as the top line predator. I think PS are cool looking fish and, if they don't pose an overpopulation risk, could serve as a suitable, and super cool, option. I guess what I'm asking for is clarification on this point, as I may have my information wrong, but I don't think so. Advising Josh well here is our main goal...Bill, Eric, Dave please chime in!

TJ, just kiddin around, although the PS's don't appear to propagate anything like BG.
I think like everything else selective breeding is the key and I'm working on that.

PS. Just a WAG, but could it be that PS's overpopulate and stunt in ponds just like GSF, cause they are both tolerant of poor conditions that reduce or kill other fish.

Sorry AP, hope I didn't come across aggressive...the LAST thing I want to do is to come off like some FORMER pb members who were banned bc of their adamant defense of their views.

I'm genuinely interested in knowing if PS could serve as a panfish suitable for SMB...if so, that opens up an entirely new species option for all of us who manage SMB.

Look for a RES-SMB article by Dr.Willis in the May-Jun PBoss mag.

PS do tend to stunt as will YP if there is not enough predation. The problem is SMB are not efficient at controlling both stunting populations. Here is part of what you are looking for.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=156359&fpart=2

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post181958


http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post14665

Definitely. Rex already warned me pretty good, so I think I'm ready for pretty much anything short of Armageddon.

Man, I'm really missing my computer right now. I will definitely check out Eric's links tomorrow and very much look forward to that upcoming article.

Here's what got me thinking (and this is coming from my phone's keypad so I apologize for any misspellings, etc.). From what I understand most small SMB fisheries need to contnuously replenish their forage numbers. RES are too few, BG are too many. I'm considering other fish options in the middle that may contribute to a healthy forage base.

Finding the sweet spot for SMB - I hear you.
All I know is that Dave Willis has suggested RES may hold their own with SMB and Mark Cornwall suggests GSH may also keep up with predation from SMB and establish a stable forage base season after season. You can always supplementally stock GSH from time to time.

I'm missing something, still haven't read anything explaining why PS's are suppose to be more prone to stunting and overpopulating.
Everything I've read gives a maximum of 3500 eggs for PS's, verses up to 30,000 for RES, and up to 80,000 for BG.

Someone please enlighten me.

I definitely agree with the value of GSH.

AP

Based on that information you shouldn't have pulled any punches and simply called me loco! We obviously have completely conflicting info, that's for sure! I'm in need of some guidance here like you. IMO I think your RES numbers are way high and PS way low and BG a little high, but BG can
vary from 2500 to significantly higher 60,000.

Wonder how far off I am?

AP

Looked at some google stuff:

PS 4,000-7,000
BG 1,000-60,000
Nothing on RES yet

TJ, here's two of the sites I saw on RES.
http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/datastore/datastoreview/showpage.cfm?usernumber=74&surveynumber=241
http://www.angelfire.com/ia3/fishing/redearsunfish.htm

Bluegill
http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/species/bluegillsunfish.htm

9,000 - 80,000? Well, that's leaving little room for error! I'm confused, on the surface according to the info you provided and I found it sounds as if PS would be a better companion sunfish than RES topping out at 80,000 eggs? I have to be missing something.

I agree TJ, I'm waiting for the experts to enlighten us.

cheep cheep cheep

Think of all the things that effect a population. Survival , food , reproductive success , predation etc. My guess is RES have the ability to spawn at the numbers below but may have a different population survival mechanism. The biologic goal of a species is survival to an age which allows them to reproduce the next generation (species fitness - Biologists define fitness as the genetic contribution of an individual to future generations, and it is typically measured as the number of offspring that reach reproductive age and condition). Different species achieve this through different means. Some have lots of babies (not just capacity but actual) while others have only a few but with high survival rates. The question I have is why are RES among all the lepomis the one with the different method. It could be that they slow/stop reproduction based on food availability.


From efish - http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/redearsun.html

Reproductive Habits:
• Mature at age 1 or 2
• Spawning occurs spring to mid-summer
• Nest in colonies near vegetation in shallow water
• Fecundity is 15,001-30,144 eggs per female per year
• Hybridizes with other sunfish

There are other sources that put the #s a little lower around 7500.

The key is with all the data on BG and PS and GSF that establish their propensity to stunt there is no such indication of that in RES. No studies that I have seen and no anecdotal evidence through observation - which we can find yet.

Thanks Eric - appreciate the enlightenment and I understand your take on this. Looking at fecundity alone does not provide enough information to determine role that fish will play in the ecosystem of the pond. That's what was tripping us up.

FYI AP - the source Eric provides says:

BG: 80k annual [could be over a few spawns?]
RES: See Eric above - 15-30k
PS: 1-2k

My summary -
1. Estimating fecundity isn't easy and "depends" on many different factors [density of population, available forage, water quality, etc.] as I've seen these numbers swing significantly in both directions for each species.
2. Criteria for choosing a suitable companion sunfish for SMB or other limited gape predators [YP, HSB] should be based on more than fecundity.
3. Of the sunfish species considered pond worthy [attain harvestable size, provide angling opportunities, etc.] it seems only the RES has never reportedly overpopulated and experienced stunting which makes them a suitable choice in certain situations - such as BOWs where predators have a limited gape.

What do you think?

Thanks for the info Eric, It seems the more info we get the more questions I have, maybe using some brain cells will help off set getting Alzheimer's.

TJ, "IT ALL DEPENDS", probably the best phrase ever uttered on this site and seems to apply to this topic.
My uneducated opinion is that PS's being more tolerant of temp. extremes, especially up north, combined with withstanding wide PH fluctuations, and possibly lower O2 requirements allow them to survive where RES & BG are marginal allowing them to keep multiplying.
There's probably lots of holes in that statement and I would like to hear them.