Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site Boat launch and dock construction

As we continue to develop our pondsite from scratch, I thought it might be the better decision to split out the launch and dock construction under a separate thread. This way, anyone looking for information for the specific category won't get lost in the pond construction stuff. I have transferred the beginning presentation of the subject from the Principal Spillway Logic thread to this thread and will follow it's development here.
If there is a chance that I can pay back the PB forum support crew by helping just one other brethren, then this thread will have served a good purpose.
-
-
Well, on to the next project; the concrete work for 2 docks and a boat launch.
Jeesh, another reflection on the work that concrete guys do...truly more new-found respect! We have formed up the first pour of the launch. The rebar is laid within the forms, but not yet tied and put up on the bar chairs.

We have drilled ten 12" dia holes for the concrete piers that will support the dock that borders the launch for 44 feet with a 14' x 16' covered deck at the end. We have also installed small rebar cages within the concrete pier forms for added stability.


There another 8 more of these holes at the beach area for a smaller 20' x 12' "L" shaped dock. The 20' section runs along the edge of the sand beach (recommended by Ewest), and the 12' "L" section turns away at 90 degrees into a quick drop-off that will put it into 6-7 ft of water...a great place to temporarily tie up the Liberty Ferry.
Oh yeah...we aren't hurtin' for rain, either. The banks are runnin' little erosion channels and the rye is just startin' to sprout. Nothing too severe and we really got a gully washer a couple of days ago. The 1 acre area in front of the dam has about 4-5 feet of water. We gotta hustle up this concrete work and shift to the tire pyramids and PVC tree structures. The race with Mother Nature is on.
-
-
(OK...now on to the new stuff...)

Before I continue, allow me to throw out some specifications and logistics.
The pondsite is at the end of a 2000 ft entry drive that was blazed last year. The last leg of this entry is about 200 ft, straight, and into the east end of the pond at a gradual slope. We knew right away that it would serve well as a boat launch. The launch will be 72' long, 12' wide, and about 6 - 7" thick. At the end of the launch, the normal pool water depth will be 5 feet. The launch is reinforced with #3 epoxy coated rebar (3/8" dia) set at 12" on-center, each way. They are set on bar chairs to elevate them. Rebar is too thick and heavy to reach into the concrete, during the pour, and just pull up from flat on the ground, like wire mesh. We are pouring the launch in sections, the first two will be 31' long. This was selected because we are using 16' long lumber for the forms AND the sides are really not accessible for a concrete truck so the pour must be done from the end. The chutes on the trucks only reach out about 20 feet or so. We used 2 x 6 for the forms. The form at the top of the pour (where the next pour will attach and continue) is drilled out with 2" dia holes at 12" o.c. and 3/4" x 18" epoxy coated dowels are laid in half way into the form zone. They will harden within the concrete, and the larger dia 2" holes should allow us to still remove the 2 x 6 form. These dowels will tie the next pour to the previous.
The round concrete piers are drilled with a 12" dia bit. They all average 48" long from the base of the hole to the top of the tube. The holes within the water are not as deep within the soil since frost heave should not be a problem there. They are, tho, drilled thru the topsoil and into the clay below for a firm bearing surface. Each hole is reinforced with a cage of epoxy coated rebar that is 4 verticals with 4 square ties of #3 rebar. The cages were pre-fab'd in the cool of the basement and the the vertical members were manufactured long. I trimmed these vertical members to length, on site, to be 8" longer the actual depth of each hole as we drilled them. This was done because the hole depths did vary somewhat. Then, each cage was set within the tube/hole and pounded with a 3# sledge until the entire cage was about 2" below the top of the tube. This centralized and stabilized the cage for the concrete pour.

Nice documentation.

More pictures!
More Pictures!

Ed

Brettski, I see some water there!

Has the urge to put in a few dozen fatheads overcome you yet???!!!!!!!

...Sunil identifies temptation:
...No, not yet. I have my hands full with these other priority projects....but....a couple more good rains, a few more weeks of construction progress, ....?
-
-
We elected to cut the verts on the rebar cages on-site since I was unsure as to the actual depths of each...no biggie. I went to Menards and purchased their largest bolt cutter; a unit 30" in length. I went home and did a test-run on a pc of rebar on the garage floor. Now remember, this is Grade 60 rebar; the good stuff. It also makes it harder to cut. After leaning, pumping, and re-adjusting the cut, the rebar finally yields with a high-pitched "ping" and shoots across the concrete floor like a bottle rocket. This ain't gonna git it in the dirt at the jobsite. Time for some re-engineering.
I took a piece of 2 x 8 x 16" treated pine and milled a slot for the handle grip (radial arm saw). Then I cut slots thru it for 2 larger hose clamps and cranked the whole thing together to create a stabile base. Then I added a piece of chain-link fence post pipe that I had in stock.

Huge improvement. Still a bear to crank it down and cut, but manageable. Still got the high velocity "ping" .
-
-
The rebar mat was laid out on the ground in their respective positions. I laid the long bars first, then tied the short cross pieces one at a time. I could only do one at a time because they would roll downhill on the long bars like they were rails. Next pour, we go the opposite way :rolleyes: .
I ain't no iron-worker, nor do I play one on TV, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night! We used standard issue 16 ga. annealed tie wire. I tied every junction at the perimeter to stabilize the mass. Then we hop-scotched the entire mat, adding a tie so that no tie was any further than 36" from another. Why not all of 'em?....you try it.
We then elevated the mat by placing a rebar chair at about 48" o.c. They are also standard issue 3" bar chairs; a plastic cone (like a volcano) with the sides cut out for concrete permeation and round notches at the top rim to accept the rebar.

We had areas near the edges that went pretty deep. I decided it was easier to fill the gap with concrete over terra-firma as opposed to filling the holes with loose soil and compacting. In these areas, we boosted the chairs with larger rocks. At the last minute, as we rested for a couple of minutes and waited for the concrete truck, I decided that maybe I should put a tie wire thru each of the chairs and tie it to the mat. Whew...good call, Brettski. When the force of the pour hits 'em, another 11th hour decision yields good results.
Oh yeah, the 3/4" x 18" smooth dowels....I cut 2" dia holes at 12" on center in the 2 x 6" form, then screwed on the backer blocks you see with 7/8" dia holes. This centralizes the bars within the 2" holes behind them.

When we go to strip the forms, remove the screw-on blocks and hopefully pop off the 2 x 6 form. The 2" holes in the form should allow room to slip over the dowels, since they are not absolutely square and straight.
-
-
Then, the pour. Boy am I glad that I bought (and brought) those waders! The entire slab took about 9 yards of concrete.

-
-
Donna-ski and I struck it off with a 2 x 6 x 14', using the standard sawing motion. PLEASE NOTE: Donna-ski is one tough dame. I laugh to think that she could kick most of my buddie's butts. She takes pain pills for some bad knees and still scares me.
Anyway, the beauty of finishing a boat launch is that the goal is a non-skid, non-slip surface. That, and most of it is below the water, puts the finishing portion well within our DIY grasp. After we strike it off, that's it...it ain't real pretty, but looks OK for novices. Then I put the finishing touch to it I took a garden rake and worked from each edge, dropping it in the center and drawing it back out, scraping up the top aggregate and creating the ultimate non-skid surface:

I got your broom finish right here!

Sometime in the future, you're gonna have to let us know how much this all cost you.

I could not help myself but to swing by the local bait store and buy 3 dozen fatheads (assuming they were true fatheads) and throw them into that water.

I know Guvnor Davidson would do the same.

Be sure and do so only by PM, utilizing encryption. This is one instance where violating the DLYHKHMTPC/DLYWKHMTPC rule, in the open forum, could cost hundreds of lives.

Great pics and tutorial, Brettski.

Maybe it cost enough that he cant afford any fatheads. :p ...but, it is one helluva job. Brettski, you're my hero.

Thanks, guys...now the big faux-pah!
PFF just PM'd me and quizzed me on the drop of the grade vs the length. He noted that a 72' long launch that drops 5' would "put water into the truck doors before the boat floats". First I geeked out, then I remembered that about 20' is exposed on the shore. Without running out to the truck and measuring clearance and then running a buncha calc's, what's the consensus?
(thanx for the bump, PFF)

Whoops, I was too late to stop the pour, but if it droops 5' in 52' that is much better than 72'!

allowing 20' for boat and tongue, when the hitch is at 2ft of water, the motor will be in 4ft. I assume you want be getting a large boat, though. With the hitch at 1ft. the motor will be in 3ft.

Unless you are planning on water skiing, I would think you would find that some of the best pond boats to use are ones that one or two guys can move around or carry.

Burg, I'll front Brettski the $10 bucks to get a few dozen "verified" fatheads. Afterall, I'm anxious to get some fish onto Sunil's Mound and into Kopecky's Ditch.

Burgermeister peeks into the crystal ball...
-
-
....yeah, nothing too much...it might look outta place on a pond. I'm kinda using this as my model:

Fabulous thread.

Brettski, you're a new classification of Pondmesiter. You're more like a "Pondfreakster". You really know how to do it up!

Brettski- I don't see any help while you were pouring. Did you run the comealong and jitterbug by yourself?

I am with Bruce, you are in a class all by yourself. "Pondfreakster Boss Supreme"

Don't for get to install the "No Wake" bouys in front of the swim-up bar and position the ski jump to face into the prevailing wind.
You are truly a man with a passion.
Are you keeping a journal with all of this information and pictures? You have the makings for several articles in PB and a great reference for the rest of us.

...OK, just a little bit on the concrete piers.
We laid out the exact centers of each pier right on the ground and pounded a short pc of #3 rebar into dead-center. The real trick is to transfer this exact location vertically to the top of the poured concrete pier. Remember, the post-hole digger can have a mind of it's own, especially when it hits a substantial rock or root. Also, the hole is rarely perfectly plumb; this is usually the biggest offendor. I have used a measurement transfer method before with accurate success, but did not take pics of it's application during this project. I can expand on it and fudge in a pictorial should someone care to see it.
OK, the holes are drilled, the tubes are FIRMLY placed within the holes, and the center locations have been transferred to the tops of the tubes. Time to pour concrete, right? Almost. Cut an extra tube, or a leftover cut-off, in half length-wise. It should be a min of about 24" or so. It will save a bunch of concrete over-spill.

-
-
As noted above, some of the drilled piers holes wound up with a slant. Instead of leaving the form tubes loose in the hole and propped up perfectly vertical with stakes and supports, I make sure they are tightly jammed in, won't move, and accept the lean. I used my eye to trowel down the surface to "close to level", then used a short bubble level (right on the wet concrete) to finish it. (you will also note that the anchor bolt is off-center. Not really...it is actually dead on WRT the layout)

-
-
We used 1/2" x 12" 18-8 Stainless Steel "L" anchor bolts. I left about 1" exposed to accommodate the post base, a couple of SS washers and a nut.

The 1/4" SS post bases will come into play a couple weeks out when we start framing.

Well, another day in paradise...pass the Ibuprofen, please.
When we brought through the concrete truck with 10 yards in the barrel 3 days ago, he found one soft spot in the new driveway constructed last Fall. Today, we summonned 14 tons of "oversize" (rock/clay), quasi-tailgated, adjusted with shovels (dozer and backhoe are long gone...ugh!), and mashed in with the tri-axle running back and forth. This one took about 2 hours of chain-gang misery.
-
-
OK, now back to the subject...the launch.
The forms popped off pretty darn easy. The smooth dowels worked out great. Finally, a project phase works as planned!

-
-
As noted in a previous post, we had some areas that deepened well below the 2 x 6 forms. We used additional 2 x 4's and and, in one area, additional 2 x 6's below the primary forms. Now I know where 9 yards of concrete went.

-
-
We re-used the forms and set 'em up for the next 31' of launch to be poured. We're gonna dowel this pour, also, because there will be one more pour to create an apron to tie back into grade.

-
-
Pursuant to some hyper-tension suffered a couple of days ago at the hands of PFF, I took specific elevation readings vs. length of launch run. At normal pool, we will have 56' of the launch underwater and the end will be at 5 ft depth. This, to me, is not ideal by any means but is acceptable for the application. No doubt, any truck will be in the water during a launch, but shouldn't be gurgling . Sedans....this might be a problem.

I am glad I had a hand or hands involved in such a wonderful project. :rolleyes: :p

Those puddles are screaming "fatheads, fatheads, please!!!!" to me, and I can't get it out of my head.

...another sweaty day in paradise. Overcast and cloudy is a welcome blessing. We laid in the rebar for pour #2, tied the bars, and propped up the mat on bar chairs.

-
-
Continuous, multiple pours above grade are typically separated at the smooth-dowel seams with expansion joint. I conferred with a trusted friend and concrete contractor and he dismissed expansion joint as unnecessary for such a low-tech, underwater application. He did insist, though, on doweling the slabs together.

-
-
This is gonna be another pretty thick pour. Since I don't want to lose too much slope, as it is already lower than ideal, we are keeping the top end of the pour as high as practical. That, and the edges of this pour, like the first, drop off to create thicker edges. I'm guestimating 9 yards on this one.

On close examination, I don't see any backs on your rebar supports. They look more like bar stools than chairs.

In the future we will all try and call them "bar stools", so we can satisfy your aesthetic values! :rolleyes:

Brettski,

I like your style! Great work and thanks for the photos.

gator

Really nice work and very detailed. Thanks for sharing your project with us Brettski. I love to watch somebody that enjoys what they're doing.
CR

We have elected to put the second slab pour on hold. Not only are we waiting for a series of rain-free days, but we need to re-charge the checking account. My in-house bookkeeper has been VERY cooperative in juggling the books to meet my all-consuming pondmeister's disease, but my suggestion to forego eating has been trumped. Somewhat distrought, I immediately hooked up the trailer and initiated a 2 hour therapy session at Menards. There's something magical about quality time spent selecting, pumping, and bench pressing a bunk of green treat lumber. More importantly, my green-treat health plan has been pre-approved and funded .
-
The docks have been engineered to consider the lateral force of shifting ice as our strongest foe at the foundation. This is the reason rebar cages were embedded within the concrete piers. The stainless steel post bases (pic in prev post) should provide a stout transition from the concrete pier tops to the 6 x 6 green treat timber vertical supports. 2 x stock will be the connecting structurals. All this will be tied together with stainless steel hardware.
After the concrete piers cured, and during our last visit to tie the rebar mat for the upcoming 2nd concrete launch pour, we shot the top elevations of each pier. This allowed me to run the calc's and pre-cut the cumbersome 6 x 6 verticals at home. The 2 x stock is much easier to handle and will be cut to size at the jobsite.
The tops of the SS anchor bolts protrude about 1". I want the timbers to bear directly down and upon the supporting post base, so an accommodation hole must be bored. This was done with a 1.750" dia forstner bit on site. 1.750" dia was selected to elimate bearing restriction by the 1.500" dia double washers under the nut on the post base bracket. The accommodation hole was bored on site because it's location varied from pier-to-pier based on fine-tuning the post base bracket location within the overall layout. I had the brackets fabricated with a 2.5" long slot for just this very reason.
After the hole is bored, we soaked the entire end of the timber and hole with preservative.

-
-
The vertical was dropped into the bracket and plumbed for level. 2 pc of 1/2" x 4" stainless lags are then cranked in, one from each side, to complete the vertical support. EDITOR'S NOTE: If you have ever done this kinda stuff and remember the time and effort expended spinning and cranking on a ratchet and socket to drive lag screws, there's a new sheriff in town. He's riding a compressor and slingin' an impact driver. Absolutely, positively, this is the only way to drive those beasts, hands down! (another editor's note: it just hit me like a ton'a'brix...DOH! I have a brand new Bosch hammer drill that I bought 2 years ago, sitting in a box in the basement. Betcha that would'a blown the bolt holes thru the timbers alot easier than the standard 1/2" drill I used. Like I said...DOH!)
OK, I'm a little better now...let's continue.
2 x 8's were used as ledger boards. They are attached to the verts with 1/2" x 10" stainless carriage bolts (these are the holes that I was talkin' about during my above "hammer drill" epiphany).
This foundation technique is typical and repeated for all the dock supports.

-
-
The dock at the this launch area has a 14' x 16' covered deck planned. This will be a construction headache unto itself and will be saved for another (soon to come) day. As a result, we are done for today on this dock after we install the 2 x 8 deck stringers. These outside stringer members are lagged into the verts with 5/16" x 4" stainless lags. The center stringer is toe-nailed into the ledgers with #10 x 3" stainless screws. 2 x 8 cross-blocking is planned between the stringers to minimize twist and rack; soon come. The resulting mass is strong.
Donna-ski applies liberal coats of preservative to the tops of the verts as I chug Gatorade and take a few file pics.

-
-
We pack up the truck and head on over to the beach area (man, I can't wait for the day when that means a picnic and a dip in the water). Not today, lifeguard boy. Strap on your toolbelt, we got's mo' woik to du.
We followed the exact same process at the beach dock, except this project is a somewhat simpler since there is no covered deck planned. The first section of dock is 20 feet long, parallel to the sand beach. The second "L" section is another 12', the last 2 feet cantilevered.
We selected this spot to create the beach area because of it's southern exposure, topography, and great view. As planned, there is virtually no shade on the entire knoll. Enter another good decision; the 10' square collapseable shelter.

-
-
The "L" section was attached to the main dock section with stainless steel joist hangers. Instead of using nails, we opted for #10 x 3" screws to increase grip.

-
-
...and then, the final product. This structure will also receive 2 x 8 cross blocks to resist twist and rack, but that will be the final touch before applying decking.

-

Good looking work, Brettski. I see the water's creeping a little closer to shore.

what kind of thought have you given deck material? since money is no object :rolleyes: i would recommend something requiring no maintenance other than sweeping, (i dont think you want to be re-applying stain or sealants in a couple years, over or near the water).

awesome project thread Brettski, you are truly making me dribble.....where's my bib?

Ol' Dave is on the right track...
The plan is definitely low/no maintenance. That, and a non-skid type surface. I haven't selected the decking yet, but the final choice must meet the aforementioned criteria. The plan here is to complete the framing for both docks, then "hit the hooks" to allow moving back to structure placement and other various periphery projects that I wanna address BW (before water). This way, I can keep my radar scanning for a good deal on decking. There is a popular auction held in the midwest for construction materials. One of my pals has attended and says that overruns and excess decking is a hi volume item...I gotta try to check out their Fall event.
-
-
We shifted back to the launch zone and focused on the main deck at the end of the dock. This was the one I somewhat feared. You see, we buy pretty much all our lumber at Menards; good price, great selection and stock. I believe they own the pressure treating facility...? Anyway, they move so much of this stuff that the stock is always fresh outta the pressure treating vessel. I mean it weighs tons! The main supports for this 14' x 16' deck is 4 pc of 6 x 6 timbers that vary in length between 10 and 12'. When we "selected" these weighty beasts from the rack at Menards, I knew a special "installation experience" was in my future. I brought ropes, straps, cleats, pusher boards, and about 5 engineering plans for not only elevating them onto the concrete piers, but holding them there while the connecting structures could be applied to keep them vertical. In the end, it was good old fashioned backbone and sinew that got them up there and couple of stakes with wood batter piles that held them plumb. WHEW, what a relief!


-
-
The main deck supports are 2 x 12 x 16', doubled up (one each side of the 6 x 6 vert) and thru-bolted with 3 pc 1/2" x 10" Stainless carriage bolts.

-
-
The floor joists are 2 x 10 x 14'. We flipped 'em up onto the deck supports to use as a temporary work deck. Next step, install the roof support members. A 2 x 10 cross member was installed to minimize racking and to tie the top of the verts. It also provides a shelf to set the main roof supports on for fastening to the verts (critical engineering foresight for a top-heavy and dangerously awkward construction segment). Identical to the deck support framing, 2 x 12 x 16' roof framing supports are installed.

-
-
After the opposing, second set of 2 x 12 roof framing supports are installed, that's it for the roof for this year. The Spring 2007 plan is to set pre-fab roof trusses at 24" OC attached with hurricane clips. 1 x battens and painted metal roofing will complete the roof structure (inspired by the Jeff Gaines project...thanks, Jeff. A note of thanks also goes out to Ahvatsa who spun off the Gaines design to another great dock/deck project)

Brettski, I have the reputation on both sides of the family for overbuilding projects. "Hell for stout," my late father-in-law often said.

Sir, that dock post-and-frame looks as well built as anything I have put together. My hat is tipped in recognition of your planning, execution, and documentary footage.

Forget going back to college. I hereby grant you an Honorary Doctorate from the Hardly Able School of Construction Engineering.

Brettski,
It is interesting to watch your progress - great pictures!
Make sure that you install some diagonal bracing to keep the structure square. My metal roof was a bit heavy and shaky until I added diagonals.
I am pleased to report that my dock has handled some intense storms. We got hit hard a month ago and I lost dozens of large oaks, hickory and ash, but the dock stood firm with no damage.

It is quite impressive.

By the way, Brettski,....don't be too surprised if you see swarms of fathead minnows in those mini-ponds. I was there last weekend.

On a less desireable side note, 'Ole Mudcat Joe was there too, although he'll testify that he didn't stock any bullies.

Brettski,

Holey Moley!!! You've done it again. You started another must read thread that I'll have to come back to several times a day to see if you've updated it.

Your dock sounds like it will be large enough to be very roomy and allow you to spend allot of time there with lots and lots of friends. In my next life, that's just what I want to do.

Thanks for sharing the pics and keeping us updated.

Eddie

Professor Gallus delivers a coveted award for achievement:
...this should help offset my high school graduating class vote of "most likely to party".
-
-
Jeff, my trusted PB dock motivational speaker, offers sound engineering advice...
I am glad that you mentioned this, Jeff. It was already on the drawing board, but I needed to hear it from "the man who owns one". You see, about 6 years ago I built an octagonal gazebo off our back deck, using very similar construction technique except the verts are 4 x 4. After attaching the roof, it was shaky and spindly...like a big, drunk spider in the wind. I added 4 x 4 diagonals, mitred and thru-bolted into an "X", between each vert. The spider sobered up, stout and tight as a drum, and went on to become the model for the War of the Worlds. :rolleyes:
If you go back to my last post, where I describe attaching the double 2 x 12 x 16' support members to the tops of the verts, you will remember and see the 2 x 10 cross member that I installed just below them to tie the verts together and minimize some of the rack. The plan would be to add another 2 x 10 just the other side of the existing and thru-bolt the entire mass...just like the perpendicular 2 x 12's they support. Then, I can cut 6 x 6 diagonals about 3 or 4 feet long, mitre the ends at 45 degrees (like one section of a picture frame). They can be thru-bolted, sandwiched between the 2 x stock running horizontal, and the other end can be either lagged or thru-bolted to the 6 x 6 vert. It will be OTT for structural integrity, but look very cool. The drawback will be the head-room obstruction potential. I s'pose if one kept them closer to 3 ft long overall, the chance of head bumps is minimized.
I truly mourn the loss of your beautiful trees. They are not so easily replaced...
-
-
...Sunil is relentless (and appreciated):
How and where do I find "certified" fathead minnows? I have read enough on this forum to fear introduction of unwanted guests. (oh yeah, and for the record, Norm's Ditch has about 3-4" of water and Sunil's Mound stands another 2 feet higher, surrounded by water ).
-
-
Mr Walker chimes in support:
...Eddie, with your boundless DIY talent, I foresee you cutting down a redwood and carving the same deck, as one piece, with a stone sharpened grouser bar as a blade. Don't forget to wrap one end with a roll of ductape...I think that's how Henckels does it...? Oh yeah...and remember...all your hobbies have to wait 'til AFTER the dishes are cleaned and dried. No lip, Mister, or it's straight to the dozer without diesel!
-
-
(thanks, guys....your support means alot)

Brettski remember those house plans I sent you, in rereference you stated you were wanting to build a small retreat cabin. Looks to me like you are already well on your way with that monster dock, just add a few more piers and some walls and wa-la a cabin on the water. Then you can quite worring about the slopes to the house pad etc and you'll save a bundle too. Looks great like all the rest or your work thus far.

Eddie he's correct you'll have to schedule dozer time now.

...it seems the inventor in Rockytopper never takes a day off:
C'mon RockyT...I promised the boss we would take a break after we finished framing it out. Besides, I'm thinkin a small houseboat might look nice tied up to it AND meet all the immediate camping requirements...once we see a bunch more water .
-
-
Well, 9 more yards of concrete and pad number 2 is poured and completed. This gives us 12' x 62' of launch. I figger the apron at the top will come in around 8 more ft of length.


We stole a couple of 5 gal buckets-worth of concrete out of the end of the pour to set the strainer support rod on the intake end of the dry hydrant line. I'll post pics on that with the balance of the dry hydrant installation pics. Oh yeah, and talk about a close guesstimate of required concrete. I wrestled with ordering what calc'd out to exactly 9 yards, or order 10 and not sweat it. Well, I went with 9 :rolleyes: . We had about 4 more feet of the pour to go to get to the top and the driver gets out and climbs up to look into the barrel...this can't be good. He shakes his head and says it's gonna be close. Well, we finish the slab pour (barely) and he swings the chute over to my 2 five gal buckets staged off to the side. We got exactly both of them filled by me using the shovel to scrape out the chute. Not another pebble more. Poifect...I used the buckets to fill the hole for the dry hydrant support rod; end of story!
-
-
A little lunch break, and back to the green treat. We put up the last 2 pc of 2 x 12 x 16' for the roof supports. Then we set the 2 x 10 x 14' floor joists by toe-nailing them into the 2 x 12 x 16' supports with #10 x 3" stainless screws. Then, we set blocks between the floor joists and screwed them thru the joists with the same screws. The resulting floor framework is solid.

-
-
OK, time to go back to the dock and tie the whole shootin' match together. We laid in the last 2 x 8 x 10' stringers. They span from the 3rd concrete dock support to the deck we just completed framing. The attachment to the deck is with the same size/type stainless steel joist hangers we used on the beach pier with the same type #10 x 3" stainless screws for fasteners. There will be a small step up from the dock to the deck...it was an engineering issue I had to accept...not a real biggie. Anyway, it came together well.

-
-
We'll see how the boss feels about spending her last day of vacation. She's probably thinking R & R and maybe dinner or lunch at a nice restaurant. I'm thinkin' "stackin' tire pyramids and settin' PVC trees". There must be a reasonable compromise....?
-
(edit; a day later, the reasonable compromise was a nice picnic at the pondsite AFTER wrestling with old truck/tractor tires and assembling PVC trees. I gotta think I got the better end of the deal :rolleyes: . For details, spin off to the PVC trees thread and head to the bottom of the page for installation.)

OK Jeff...done. I picked up 4 pc of green treat 6 x 6 x 8ft and pre-fab'd 'em at home. I cut each 8 footer dead center with a 45 degree cut. Then, I pre-drilled the 1/2" hole for the mounting bolt at each 45, adding a 1.500" dia countersunk hole to accept and recess the washer and nut. The other end of ea timber brace, the square end, is the easy one and will be drilled on site during installation. I picked up 16 more 1/2" x 10" SS carriage bolts and matching washers and nuts. Load up the generator and we're back off to the project. It took a couple of hours but turned out great.

-
-
Before we installed the diagonal timbers, I had to add one more 2 x 10 ledger opposite the existing ledger....cake. Then the top end of each diagonal (the square end)is sandwiched between the 2 x stock and thru-bolted with the 1/2" SS carriage bolts. The 45 degree cuts mated with the verts absolutely dead on and bolted on like they belonged there all along.

-
-
Now I have to keep my eyes and ears open to find a good deal on manufactured decking. After that, load up the trailer with pre-fab roof trusses and metal roofing.
-
QUESTION: I have very little exposure to metal roofing installation. I know that on a house a plywood or OSB roof deck should be installed. Should I do the same here or just use firring strips perpendicular to the trusses? I sure like the simplicity of firring strips AND the weight reduction.

Good work, Grasshopper.

On metal roofing: Normal protocol is to use 2"x4"s (called purlins, today's $2 word that I didn't learn until my 4th barn), going perpendicularly across the trusses/rafter boards, to hold up the metal roofing, which itself is perpendicular to the purlins. Typical purlins spacing would be 2' apart, perhaps wider in areas with a lower expected snow load or for steeper roofs. The 2"x4"s are of course stronger in this role if oriented vertically (the 4" going up and down, the 2" contacting the rafters and the roofing). Concerned amateurs nail or screw the roofing through the raised ridges onto the purlins, barn #4's "professionals" ( :rolleyes: ) screwed it through the flats (we were a little unhappy about that - it may be OK since it's screwed, if nailed it would be a nightmare).

Here's the best digital picture I could find of installed purlins and roofing (a ltttle blurry because the building was not the main subject). You can see the siding on the wall better and it is put on completely analogously to the roofing, other than the orientation of the 2"x4"s. I hop this helps.

I want to go with 4/12 prefab roof trusses, 24" o/c. I have to imagine that 2 x 4 purlins at 24" o/c should be plenty stout. A 4/12 pitched metal roof should shed snow fairly well...? This being true, laying them flat should be reasonable practice...? Besides, what type/length of fastener would be used to go thru 3.5" of inverted 2 x 4, plus seat/bond with the support member?

Brettski,

I have some experience with metal roofs on wooden buildings. The attached picture is of my wife as we put the roof on our home.

The metal is attached to the purlins. It's always screwed on. NEVER nailed. The screws have rubber gaskets on them that you tighten until it starts to bulge. Too tight and you will break the seal. The screws go through the low part of the metal directly into the purlins. You NEVER attach a metal roof through the ridges.

Metal comes in three foot widths, but it's easy to overlap sections in one foot widths. Your supplier will pre-cut it to you in any length you want.

Spacing of your truss's can vary from four feet to 16 feet or more. I like 4 foot centers on my truss's. Your purlins need to span the width of each truss. I like 12 foot pulins and I stagger there ends. Each one up starts on a different truss to tie everything together.

My purlins are on 4 foot centers. Without snow, you can put them further, but snow load and pitch need to be engineered if you do that. I wouldn't. You can put them closer if you like, it's just extra lumber.

With your truss's on 4 ft centers, you can use 2x4's on there flat sides. Further spacing of the trusses will require 2x4's on there edges. It's real easy to attach them on there flats, so that's the way I do it. This also gives you a large surface to attach your metal panels.

I buy my stuff at www.muellerinc.com here in Texas. I know they are not in your area, but they have a good website with prices that should give you some ideas. Home Depot and Lowes don't sell good metal. If you want to do it once, buy from a metal building supply house.

The main failure point on metal roofs is the screws. Mostly it's from overtightenign them, but cheap screws will fail. They either have inferior rubber gaskets or the metal is crap. Buy quality screws!!!

To keep it simple, build a gable roof. A hip roof might look nicer, but it's more work and the framining is allot more involved.

Have fun,
Eddie

If the 2"x4"s are attached upright, you put two nails in at an angle from opposite sides. They only go through the bottom 1/2 to 1/3 of the purlin.

The barn pictured above has purlins every (IIRC) 28" or so, with a 5 foot span between the trusses (center section) or rafters (side sections). Given your purlins will only have to span 2' between trusses, laying them flat should be no problem at all.

I think 4/12 pitch trusses should be fine for your snow load, even if you're in the Lake Michigan snow belt, unless you're putting on gutters. A steel roof sheds snow a lot easier than shingles. 4/12 is not too bad to work on after it ages; roof sheets IME are shipped dripping with a silicon spray-like preservative that is really slippery until it drips/weathers off (it tastes lousy, too). Even if there's no preservative to speak of, they roughen up a little after the galvanized starts to oxidize. The roof above I worked from a roofing ladder suspending by rope from the opposite side of the barn, passed over the crown. But it has a lot bigger span and a lot higher drop (20+' for the center section) than your dock.

Use screws to hold the sheeting down. I used to make good money renailing steel roofs on pole barns after they'd aged a few years.

Are you going to seal off the under side of the trusses with sheeting like the classier dock roofs we've seen pictured here? It'd be nice to have it bird-, bug-, and varmint-proofed. Although the challenge of shooting a raccoon out of ones trusses without holing the roof can be fun.

Just to clarify what Eddie stated qoute " You NEVER attach a metal roof through the ridges."

His statements are true, however they do make lap joint screws that are designed to be screwed thru the ridges to connect each sheet to each other. They also make a seal tape that is applied between the sheets under this ridge joint. For steeper roofs like 6-12 pitch the seal is not really necessary but it is recomended for flatter slopes like 2-12.

Rockytopper,

Thanks. There are two different types of screws. One that will drill through the metal and fasten to wood and anthere that is for metal to metal.

Eddie

...Theo means well, but somehow it turns into more work and expense:
I considered it, but nothing more than a passing thought. Give me some ideas on SOP.

Be sure to look into the quality of the screws and rubber gaskets. One of my partners has a country house about 8 years old with a metal roof (life time guaranty on the roof but not the screws). The roof is in great shape but he found a leak. When he got it checked he found out that the gaskets have all deteriorated and every one must be replaced.

I haven't done it myself, Bski, but I believe there have been 2 or 3 nice docks pictured here with the bottom of the trusses covered. The walkway from the house to the garage/apartment at Lusk Lodge II is done this way - pics in one of the last 2 issues of PB Mag.

Brettski it is also a good idea to pre drill the sheets with a hole bigger than the screw dia but still small enough to be sealed by the washer. The reason is to allow the sheets room to expand and contract with temperature changes.

So, I’m in the midst of planning completion of the launch dock/deck and the dock at the beach area. The launch dock/deck will require decking, roof trusses with purlins, and the metal roofing. The beach dock is considerably simpler, requiring only decking. The next step for both is obvious; installing the decking.
I have installed numerous square feet of decks in my lifetime. All of it has been treated lumber, both the frame and the decking. Whenever I completed a deck, I would always admire its beauty. About 2 or 3 years later, I would swear that next deck would be a composite type decking to eliminate maintenance and prolong aesthetic appeal. I haven’t forgotten this self-imposed promise for these upcoming projects. I still firmly believe in treated lumber for the framing, but I have strongly voiced my belief to spend the money for a better decking product. Well, here I am….it’s time to pull the trigger.
I have been doing my due diligence on decking material and, as usual, now know enough to be dangerous. The way I see it, there are three basic material compositions to consider. A) Treated lumber B) composite decking C) Hi density polyethylene (HDPE). The treated lumber is easy to understand since it is the most commonly used product for these type structures. The composite decking is a bit more complicated because it is a blend of plastics and wood fibre. There are different blends and percentages of content. They do eventually break down, mostly because of the wood fibre content. The warranties vary, mostly from 10 – 25 years. The price corresponds. Then I researched HDPE. I was sure I found my new hero. It is a 100% solid plastic product, UV protected, and the warranties are in the 50-year range. They mold the stuff with the color throughout the plastic, so any scratches or gouges reveal the exact same color. Also, the finish is molded with faux wood grains for “looks” and traction. I will admit that, based on on-line product pics, the close-up aesthetic appeal is, well, plasticky. But this is a boat dock. Sure, I want it to look good, but more importantly I want it to wear and last forever….zip maintenance. I think this stuff gets me there.
No matter what product I select, I definitely plan to use hidden fasteners. I did a very small stair-step project last year and tried the under deck galvanized rails. These are the 4‘ long continuous strips that you screw to the top edge of the framing joists. They have pre-punched holes every 1” that will accommodate a deck screw that is run upward and into the bottom of the decking board above it, drawing it down to the galvanized strip and (theoretically) snug against the framing joist. It is awkward work and I was not impressed with the results. I am sold (until further notice) on the Eb Ty hidden fastener system. This is the plan for fastening whatever I finally do select.
So, I am now searching and hoping to find an HDPE product that I can afford. This is my first forbidding barrier. All the name brands that are true HDPE are mega-expensive. The only one I found locally to inspect was an extruded product that looked really great on a display at one of the local lumberyards. It’s called Eco. A piece that is 5.5” wide x 16’ long costs $41. Yikes! Then I found what I hoped to be my answer to the HDPE affordability equation. A factory that actually makes the stuff and will sell retail direct. EPS Plastic Lumber . They have a plant in the Chicago area…perfect! This stuff is absolutely killer. A true 2 x 6 (1.5” x 5.5”) dimensional lumber…err…plastic. They have some closeout product that will work perfectly for my launch dock/deck; the 16’ pc is $38 each. And this is a good deal…?
Here’s how I calculate this. I am going to focus only on the launch dock/deck for completion (the beach dock is far away from the living zone of the pondsite, so it is not as important for looks….the launch area is). Anyway, to deck the entire launch dock/deck with this HDPE deal that I found, it will cost $2200 in materials and hidden fasteners. I think Curly Howard said it best: Nyaah, aah, aah! Now, for the flip side, to do the same area in 2 x 6 treated lumber for the decking, including Eb Ty hidden fasteners, the total cost would be $700. Another factor: the plastic lumber will weigh 1100# for just the 14’ x 16’ deck. That’s a lot of weight, ain’t it? Oh yeah, and get this. Dski is with me and has approved funding of the big bux product if I am 100% sure of the quality and longevity. I really only have one big problem: I can’t do it. I can’t bring myself to spend that kind of dough for this project. So, I analyze it the best I can and this is where I wind up. If I use the Eb Ty hidden fasteners and do a nice job of securing the treated 2 x 6 decking, it will last forever (or at least my lifetime). Accept the fact that it will weather and turn a dull gray and many of the boards with split and crack here and there. At least there won’t be that snappy look of a gazillion screw-head craters. With the money left over (2200 – 700 = $1500), buy the roof materials and finish it off for the same amount of dough as just the plastic magic-deck. Heck, if I do the beach dock with treated, I might be able to use the savings to buy a power washer for lazy cleaning maintenance and a couple gallons of good transparent stain to fake myself out.
….or, do you pull the trigger and buy the killer plastic lumber?
-
-
(a nice product summary by This Old House)

Of all your living areas how much time will you spend at the dock/deck?
Where will be the first place you take guests?
We don't live on our pond, the dock is crude, yet it is the center of action in the summer. And after we build a house I would guess the dock will still be the center of a lot of action.
Of course when the treated lumber decking fades, if it doesn't bother you, I would bet it wouldn't bother anyone else.
Faded wood might even be a good look around the pond.

I've had just a little bit of exposure to the new decking materials and haven't seen one yet that I like over PT Wood. In addition to there upfront price, you really need to have your joists on 12 inch centers. Even then, some will begin to sag over the years.

I screw down the decking on my projects. I like to snap a chalk line to get them all lined up too. Then I screw them down until the heads disapear into the wood. Two screws per joist for the length of the board.

If you do go with PT wood decking, buy it a month or two before you install it. The shrinkage in that first few weeks will be severe. Then it will stabalize and you can get your spacings pretty accurate.

Don't spread them out, just stack them outside so they will keep from warping while drying out. Home Depot and Lowes will take warped ones back, so don't mess around with any of them. No point in it. I ususally buy a dozen extra with the plans to return what's not used.

I like the look of weathered wood, but Thompsons has there water seals in colors now. You just spray it on every year and it looks great.

Eddie

...ever use this thing? If you're unsure, read the reviews on Amazon. I just ordered my Bowrench .

Brettski,
If you hadn't signed your post, I would have thought I wrote it myself. I was not even going to consider PT wood for my dock, until I saw the price. It's 4X the price! So I am going to use PT as well. There is a wood protection product sold at Sherwin Williams called Deckscapes. It has been highly recommended to me by several painters. It is water based, and it's not cheap, but the money saved not buying plastic justifies the cost, especially if it is as good as I have heard. Look HERE

After 17 years, we are finally figuring on putting the deck on the back of our house this year. Currently we are contemplating using TimberTech , which is a wood-fiber-and-plastic composite. IIRC SOP is to install this material as decking over a regular treated lumber frame. One of their alleged benefits we are after is the ability to water-proof (and bug-proof) the top deck of a two-story structure.

The owner of the local lumber yard carrying the stuff is one of the neighbors that we actually get along with (lumber yard owners seem less upset by logging) and we will have to go next door and check out the Timber Tech deck on his house - it's been up a few years now.

Their "Docksider" planks are designed for 24" center-to-center supports.

"The owner of the local lumber yard carrying the stuff is one of the neighbors that we actually get along with (lumber yard owners seem less upset by logging)"

Theo,
Do your other neighbors use plastic toilet paper?

I personally support sound logging practices of a renewable and sustainable resource.

Ed

They probably use a bidet. ("It's for washing off your backside!")

Ed, we had a couple of them complain that when they bought their property, there were woods next door, and then we had them logged.

We replied that when we bought our place, there was another farm next door, then they put in a subdivision. :p

DONE DEAL

Green treated 2 x 6 x 8' and 16'. I'll plan for installation over Memorial Day...I hope. That'll give 'em some time to dry out a bit. In the meantime, they will stay packed up tight to see if that helps to alleviate twist and bow while they cure.

Memorial Day??? That's like over two months away.

Brettski, please try and bear down to get your project done. No need to idle around wasting time.

Classic Sunil, just classic.

At first glance, I thought the stack of wood had been delivered by a fork lift as it came off the truck. Then I noticed that you have it stacked with spacers between the boards to allow air circulation. Very nicely done!!!

I bet you got yourself a nice workout moving all the lumber around!!! And in a few months you get to load it up and move it again!!!!!

Keep us updated as I'm really interested in the results of your air drying/stacking method.

Thanks,
Eddie

Nothing says Love like Lumber. Keeping it strapped together should help cut down on warping.

I thought it was "as delivered" too, Eddie - I had to go back to see the shipping bands had been replaced with nylon strapping.

Theo:

I installed TimberTech (tongue and groove version) on our front porch 5 years. It was WAY expensive and terribly heavy...however, it was one of the best decisions I made in our remodel project. I'm kind of a slob and tend to track lots of "stuff" around. Spring and fall...2 gallons of bleach in a hand sprayer, soak it well, wait 20 minutes or so and hose it off. VOILA...brand new looking, all over again. It's also absolutely arrow straight, and stays that way.

It does fade, to a very light gray/brown color, but it works incredibly for us. ABSOLUTELY no sag, give or anything on 16" treated 2x8 joists. I also considered it on my floating dock, but the price and weight were a bit much.

BTW..for anyone considering using EBTys on treated 2x6 decking, better reconsider. Without a fastener in the middle, the boards will tend to warp upwards (cup) in the middle. I'd at least use one (SS) screw in the middle of each board at each joist. Been doing construction long enough to know that this will be necessary.

What color did you install?

Theo...5 years ago, it was only available in 1 color, a light brown/tan. Maybe it's in more colors now, but as it's plastic, it WILL fade, regardles of what they tell you. Eventually, most any color (other than pure white, as titanium dioxide negates nearly all UV light fading) will end up it's natural shade of light gray, nearly white.

I can take some photos if you'd like to see what it looks like now, 5 (hard) years down the road...

IIRC it comes in red, brown or grey now. I'm hoping for low maintenance, as I hate fixing anything except dinner for fish and fish for dinner.

4-07 Update
We are well into spring and the pond is quickly creeping up the shoreline as it stretches for the spillway pipe. My laundry list of improvements for the project is still long and alot of the jobs need to be completed before the water arrives. This includes the last pour of the launch. We are thankful that this one is small compared to the other two 31' long pours. This slab is only 8 ft long x the 12 ft width.

-
-
We just unloaded the fish delivery and moved right into tying rebar.

This last pour will require barely 2 yards. The concrete company del's 3 yards min for no dely charge. Less than that, add $75 dely. Heck, a yard costs 80 some odd bux. I gotta come up with another use for another yard of concrete....or more. Is it time to start the 16' x 24' shed???

Yeak Brettski, you gotta find someplace to pour that last yard...can't pay something for nothing. I've even laid out ladder-type forms and just poured blocks to toss in the pond for structure...but a yard would make a helluva lot of them...

Any place you might want to set a bench or something out there, in the future?

You could always put in a sidewalk to where the dock begins.

Right now, I'm considering putting a "sidewalk" sort of pad down near the bridge. Got several older folks that love to fish, but can't stand for long. Even though the slope seems relative minor to me (maybe 5:1) it's hard for Al to sit in a lawn chair there...42"x10 foot pad would be ideal for him and wifey's gramma...we drive right to it, anyway, and it's be nice for them.

Just another thougt...

A good thought, Matt. Flat, no erosion spots for lawn chairs can seem like a God send.

It never really crossed my mind until this past Saturday...older folks deserve the absolute best. Al and Geneva have earned it, along with others who may show up over time.

I like Theos idea. Old folks really don't like muddy walkways to the dock.

Brettski,

Anything new with the boathouse? I remember you bought a load of lumber, and I'm trying to be patient, but it must be nice weather there now!!!

Eddie

Ed-man...so glad ya asked.
The plan was to get into decking the piers and deck over Memorial day. So far, this remains the plan. I have been monitoring the "air-dry bunk". The top pieces have shown some twist and camber, but I expected that since they have minimal top support to hold 'em back. I had hoped the bands would loosen some as the lumber shrunk. I have had to tighten the bands a little, but it wasn't like losing 15# and having to pull your belt over 1 more notch. The balance of the bunk still looks good. I wonder what's gonna happen when I pop 'er open. Might be time to open that Alpine ski shop.
I wrestled and researched the markets for the method I want to employ for securing them to the joists. The goal continues to be invisible fasteners. I thought I was sold on the Eb-Ty fasteners, then I found Lumber loc . They were cheaper and appear to be similar in composition and application. In fact, I called the home office and they sent me a couple of samples. I just can't see a plastic composition fastener as long term and secure for treated lumber. So, just as I was about to start preparing for some commitment, Menards sends me a big ol' sales flyer with a decking section. Whoa...there it is! Tiger Claw, type TC2 . I did some quick due diligence, price shopping, and Tiger Claw from Menards wins. Oh yeah, and they have all their SS fasteners on sale, too. Bingo; 700 pc of TC2 fasteners + screws, ready for installation. Oooo boy.

Where do you Brettski get the time for all these projects. You must only work one day a week! That pond is shaping up pretty good. Great to see it filled and taking shape.

...bz, would you please talk to Sunil for me? Thanks in advance.
-
ps; I should warn you that he can bench press some unGodly amount of beer, or something like that. Also, he has a big, mean friend name Fatay.

B'ski , Sunil has a point. He is just trying to save you from the anguish. Once the fish get some size and summer gets hear you will find the fish, the Liberty Ferry and beach calling you. At that point those projects will get way behind. :p

Brettski, you dinnerware-hoarding slacker!!!

If you would stop wasting time here on the forum, you would already be done with your project!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, ewest is right on.

You're confused, bz, that's Bruce.

Brettski has simply utilized modern 5S, 5Y, 3P, JIT, and Lean manufacturing techniques to get 500% efficiency out of a minimally sized workforce (himself and Donna-ski).

...Ewest; no need to try to cover for Sunil's inability to tell one beer from another because he peeled off all the labels. I know he means well. If not, I have a Nesco roaster with his name on it.
...Theo; thank you for recognizing breakthrough levels of efficiency. I'll never forget Dski in the 95 degree heat of summer while we are striking off the concrete for the boat launch. It was music to my ears as she screamed over at me "I am NEVER doing this again; this sucks worse than drywall". I gave her a raise.

That's it! I discovered his secret. I just need to get Mrs. BZ to work like that Dski. Then my projects will get done. I must not pay enough. She's got all the credit cards and the check book. What more can I do Brettski? Maybe I'll buy her something nice, like a fish feeder. Will that work?

bz, man...you've done enough of these things to know that projects are never really done. The key is letting her be the boss. Ooowee, did she tear into me a few times when I would mess up the finish while striking off the pad.
-
The concrete driver dumped a couple yards into the forms for us to work on. He got out of the truck, and walked over to Dski as she was bustin' hump sawing the 2 x 6 across the 12' pad (uphill, no less). He walked right up to her and said "here, let me help" as she ignored him and kept on sawing. He leaned over, hand out to grab the 2 x 6 and says "really, let me do this". Remember Gort on The Day the Earth Stood Still? She turned her head and shot 2 evil-eye laser beams straight at his face. She gritted her teeth like Dirty Harry, squinted her eyes and delivered "I can do it myself!" He stepped back and looked at me like it was MY pit-bull that got out of the cage. I just shrugged and kept my hands on the 2 x 6 as it suddenly surged into double time.
Wait 'til he looks in the mirror tomorrow morning and sees Klaatu barada nikto laser etched into his forehead.

-
-
Time's up! It's been about 2-1/2 months since I banded up the bunk to begin the cure experiment . I popped the bands today.

Out of 70 pc of 2 x 6 x 8', I rejected 19. Out of 35 pc of 2 x 6 x 16', I rejected 9. Here's how it shakes out.
The 8 footers are all cut in half at 48" long for the piers (a little long for the application; will be trimmed to length after installation). I sighted each of the 8' and tossed bad stuff to the side, cut the keepers in half, and loaded them onto the trailer. It seemed that the top row had the most rejects. I worked with boards that show reasonable bow (rainbow when they are flat), but rejected twist or excessive camber (banana). Total reject for 8' stock is 27%. (about 5 were unbelieveable!)
The 16 footers are used full length. I am a bit more tolerant of twist and camber because there is enough mass for me to "push it around". An unusual flaw that was prominent with 16' was an up/down waviness of the flatness over the length. This can also be tolerated a little since I can "bull" them a little, but there were a couple that looked like a kiddie roller coaster. Total reject for 16' stock is 26%.
I have enough short pc to complete the launch dock and do about 1/2 the beach dock. I am 3 pc short of the 16' stock required to do the deck at the end of the launch dock; will try to work with 3 of the best rejects to finish. Bottom line: I am confident of completing the launch dock and deck and putting a dent in the beach dock. The launch dock/deck is far more important at this point of development.
-
-
Before I summarize my experiment, I should explain my motives. I plan to use hidden decking fasteners to hold the decking down. I want to avoid surface fasteners like screws and nails. I am using Tiger Claw TC2 stainless steel fasteners . I wanted to not only allow the wet PT lumber to shrink before installation, but also identify "twisters and benders" BEFORE I install them. I don't hold alot of hope that these fasteners will hold back a twisting 2 x 6. So, for those of you DIY deck builders, here is my opinion of anal retentive air cure preparation of P-T lumber before installation.
Would I do it that way again? Yes, but I believe that laying them out on a flat surface to cure would likely do as well. Holding them in a tight bundle does not, IMHO, affect them if they are planning to move. In essence, my cure experiment worked in that it allowed them to dry out some, but had little effect of "forcing" them to remain straight. I would not just pack them up in a tight bundle without spacers and expect decent, consistent drying. The reject rate is about 25%. If you need 75 arrows, buy 100 and save the receipt.

That's a horrible yield, Brettski. Package all those rejects up and ship them to me. :rolleyes: I will dispose of them for you at no charge, since you're a friend and all.

Looking at that "after" pile picture - that looks real good. I would be extremely happy with that amount and level of curvature.

Sounds like pretty normal results. I have a client that I'm building a house for with almost half the PT 2x's warping beyond usability. We have a stack that's building to return, and I have them keeping me in supply with enough to move forward. We only pick out a few at a time and look for the lightest/dryest ones in the stack.

Once installed, they hold there shape pretty good, but I'm not doing any of those hidden fasteners. I like to use 3 inch screws right thought the boards. The screw countersinks itself and are rock solid.

Eddie

Alright, round 1 of the Tiger Claw hidden decking fasteners challenge is in the history books. Great results, lotsa extra labor.
-
-
We hoofed our bunk of 2x6 lumber to the project and started with 30' of dock at the launch. It came together very well, but took about 3 times as long as if we had just buzzed the screws in from the top. Granted, a good portion of this additional time is me doing my standard overkill of trying to make it perfect, but the Tiger Claw installation is pretty labor intensive. Nothing really muscle-challenging...just alot of steps to get a bond.
-
-
The Tiger Claw clips seem whimpy to hold one in your hand. They're 16 Ga stamped stainless steel. I have never used these types of fasteners before, so I didn't know what to expect.

-
-
They come with a plastic installation block. The prongs on one side of the clip slips inside slots in the face of the block. The opposing prongs are now set at the correct height and ready to be rapped into the leading edge of the last deck board fastened.

I had real reservations on this plastic setting block. It performed flawlessly, taking every hammer blow, both square and glancing. In fact, each 100 pc box of the fasteners has one of these blocks in with it, so D-ski kept 2 of them active, rotating with a fresh clip charge.
-
-
A #8 x 2" stainless steel screw is then buzzed in at an approx 45 degree angle.

-
-

-
-
We have 3 stringers running the length of this dock section, so one clip per stringer.

-
-
There is some bull work required, and it is another one of the major time consumers. The next board is set by slamming it onto the prongs by use of an 8 lb sledge hammer. A shorter section of sacrificial 2-by stock is used to buffer the blows without damage to the deck board. Naturally, it is very important to have the bonding edge of this next board tight to the stringers as the prongs enter, so standing on this next deck board as the sledge swings helps to mitigate small amounts of bow and twist.-
-
Overall opinion
I have built a fair amount of PT decks in my time. All have been screwed from the top with SS screws. They have all fared well, but the riddled surface detracts a point or two from the overall appearance. These clips leave no trace...nada. They take alot of extra time to install; this is the price you pay. Past that, though, when those prongs are set, it is one study little pc of hardware. The screw really does tighten it up like a banjo string. At the end of the installation, it looks fantastic. All the bonds between the deck boards and the stringers is tight and the seams are tight. I was worried that the protruding screw head might hinder a tight seam between deck boards. Enter Mr 8# sledge; good night. Oh yeah, I bought that Bo-Wrench gadget. Dang, it works good. I was a great help in squeezing out a little bit of the camber (the banana) I did have to deal with. Granted, it's next to impossible to remove camber on a 2 x 6 that's only 4' long, but it made that little bit of difference a perfectionist seeks. Yep, and the subsequent installation of the Tiger Claw clip and screw cranked it down and held it back.
The real test will be down the road as the summer sun further dries the deck boards. I expect the width to shrink; this is normal. Based on what I saw of the strength of these clips, I don't expect any problems with the installation as the cracks between the boards widen. The real question will be if the thickness shrinks (and I expect it probably will to some degree). How much of that tight, square bond will yield? If it does and the boards twist...hmmm. TBD.
Finally, another helpful tip for those considering use of these fasteners. I purchased them at Menards for $25 per 100 pc. They did not come with screws. The manufacturer does offer kits that come complete with all the screws. Home Depot lists it, but had make a special order in my area. I priced the complete kit out and found savings by buying the generic SS screws in 5# boxes from Menards, once again on sale. My generic screws worked just fine, but I noted that the heads protruded when seated. I wonder is the Tiger Claw screws have a slightly different head that would seat a little deeper within the clip hole...? Also, the Tiger Claw screw heads are finished in black oxide, as are the clips, to further hide them.

Brettski,

Do the deck boards end up with absolutely no gap between them? Conventional wisdom (Which I usually ignore!) is that you need a space between the deck boards. This is to prevent buckling when the boards get wet and expand.

Although I seasoned the wood in my aerated bundle, it still has a good amount of moisture and cure remaining. I learned a number of decks ago that when working with PT decking that is fairly fresh, install the boards as tight together as possible. When they cure and dry out, the gap will be perfect. I remember one of my rookie decks where I used the standard 10d - 16d nail spacing technique. By the end of the summer, the gap was too wide by 1 nail's width.
-
The Tiger claw clip does provide for a very small gap since the body of the clip is 1/16" thick. This, and some of the boards were not perfectly straight, thus inducing some gaps.
I pushed these suckers as close together as I could. This is one of the very few blessings of working with PT wood; no time spent trying to create a perfect spacing.

Brettski,

Thanks for all the information on the install of your decking. I've never used hidden fasteners, so it was very interesting to read your comments on them. I look forward to hearing how well they hold up over time.

Don't forget to give us more pictures of the deck!!!!

Eddie