Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Changes coming to Pond Boss....

jims place, I've sent you a PM.

Since I also publish a magazine, that has a website, that also has a message board I feel Bob's pain as we are facing many of the same issues. I would say though, that compared to what I do and what I have seen, PB gives away much more than anyone else. I feel that I could pretty much manage my pond(s) just by gathering information on this forum. That statement is not to dis the magazine, but rather to compliment the board. In fact, I would almost say that I subscribe to PB more out of a sense of duty to pay for something, since I don't pay for what I learn here, than actually wanting the magazine.
Bob, no matter what you do someone will complain. Like Bruce said the info is worth thousands, but still many will cry if they have to pay one red cent, and I think that you can see that in kind of a generational thing. Many times I've had people call me requesting a complimentary issue. When I tell them that single copies are $5, they act like they can't afford it, even though they must have thousands of dollars invested in the hobby and one issue could easily save them thousands.

Wow! I have to agree with esshup! If even part of all of what we are talking about gets done it's going to take a lot of time and energy from someone??? Sounds like the PB's profit will be going to someone they will have to hire to make all these changes and keep up this site. It's easy to talk about all of this but implamenting it is a WHOLE other can of worms!!!

I subscribed to the magazine because of the forum. It took me awhile before I subscribed too. Had the forum not been free, I would have moved on to another forum that was and I wouldn't be a subscriber, nor would I have purchased a book.

There seems to be a fair amount of Pondboss Magazine and book promotion within the forum and other pond related forums I’ve come across. This time of promotion is more valuable than any that can be purchased.

I probably won't pay for a magazine unless I'm getting a hard copy. Maybe I'm old fashioned but I feel the same way about books, music, and movies. Technology is changing though and it may be a good option for those who like it and wish to save some paper. IMO, virtual material must be a substantial discount to real…roughly 75% to be considered.

I will not pay to be a forum member. I think it would be good to give limited forum access to people who are not signed in as members. If someone is already signed in, they may be more willing to contribute to the forum and this would give the magazine a database of potential subscribers.

Additions and extras to what is free now would justify a fee.

Podcasts and videos are a little different. I’m aware that shows have been broadcast featuring Bob Lusk but do not wish to subscribe to those channels monthly for only 1 airing.

Posting pictures isn’t a big deal IMO. I’ll probably continue doing it as I have been even if another option is added.

hi bob,
i couldnt be more clear in my opinion than what DD1 says above.

however i ask you, is dave's assessment that you dont get that much business from the website true? have you tried to gauge increased business activity as it directly relates to new clients exposed to you through the forum, what about otto? surely he has moved some dirt through forum exposure, and have you recently asked yer sponsers (advertisers like todd overton, sue cruz, purina fish food folks, etc....) if they've seen a marked increase in activity if not sales as a direct result of the pondboss forum? for example, i wouldnt have known about let alone bought a vertex air station, or aquamax fish food otherwise.

im guessing yer business started, grew and survives off word of mouth...i cant think of a bigger word of mouth than this forum which i wouldnt have participated in if it werent free, plus, as a business/marketing expense it is tax deductible is it not?

getting the forum (and the pond boss brand) MORE visible through internet search vehicles would be the A1 priority in my mind.

and BTW, if you do institute charges, i will still love and admire you all the way from el dorado ca

to coin a phrase.....fish on......

died

Do what you need to do. Advertizing would me my first step.
I also came to this site from Bigbullgill .con. the picture links the personal page, the group are nice. As a first time pond owner there is no other place to get the RIGHT information then here. I'm here I going to stay here and if it takes a few buck a year to keep site up and running, tell me where to send my check.

I'm as guilty as the worst of us for thread hyjacking, so I'll be sure to keep that to a minimum from now on.

Burger made the comment that this is a "pulic" forum. It is treated that way and everyone is welcome, but the fact is, this is a PRIVATELY owned forum. We all contribute freely and the owners, Bob and Mike, pay the bill.

I think posting should remain free and a "donation" tab be offered. I would personally donate generously, for many reasons and not the least of which is the abundance of timely, accurate, and free information.

In lieu of a fully free forum, perhaps a full featured trial membership for those seeking help for a short period, sat 30 days. After the 30 days, the new members can choose to pay a nominal subscription fee of from $5-$20 annually with each $5 step adding more e-services, such as a current "Feature Article" from the current mag. Another step could include up to 2 back issue e-copies of the magazine, another step could include the pod cast, another could even include personal question answering and a subscription. That would be far more than the $20 stated earlier, but you get the idea.

Bottom line is that this site is so unique because of the willingness of all involved from top to bottom. It has grown because it is the best site, has great, stuff, and it's all free. A small cost in the beginning may lead to a huge price being paid in the end.

I'll pay and participate no matter what!

My $12.10 (adjusted for inflation)

I say you setup the donation tab first and or maybe a address where someone could send you money for a donation. Then make changes as you can with the extra money. I read earlier that we have about 5000 or so memebers of which about 1000 are active more or less. Well if you have 1000 of your 5000 members donate just 10 bucks that's 10 grand. You could start doing some real good stuff to the site and more with 10 grand. And if you actually got 2000 or so members to donate over a years time your looking at a nice profit for the PB mag and forum and you could do a lot of things to both with that kind of money. I can't speak for everyone but I think most of us could eventually through out the year afford to donate 10 bucks maybe even more. The key is numbers. The more people who donate the less you have to give.

I have been reading all the posts on this thread, and will state several opinions and observations as follows:
1: Got my A** chewed and handed to me on a platter on my 1st post,
but since that time have come to appreciate the comradie and banter
between the frequent posters as friends.
2. Realy liked the idea that I was able to lurk, read and learn, prior to joining and subscribing to mag(as much out of guilt for info I was recieving as anything-Subscrition and back issues which I have enjoyed)
3. Those of you based in Texas will never benefit monetarily from any direct connection with me and my lake in Georgia except through this forum and the PB mag.
4. Through this forum I have been in contact with Greg Grimes in my area and has helped me immensibly, and have supported him in products I needed and a beneficial consultation, would this be possible if it were a pay site for ads and posts????
5, Have been to # of sites online where they say X # of experts online to answer your questions, and once you go through all the info required they want a credit card to converse with me som I just log off and never go back.
6. Once you get to "pay for everything", do you get to if X get paid to answer A question, why don't I as Y get paid to answer Question B ????
7. Free enterprise system run on supply and demand, therefore cash flow and profit is the basis for driving that, so i agree some changes need to be made. Do the Resource Links get enough business off this forum/site that they would be willing to pay a small fee, would those of us that enjoy and learn prefer to donate, annual membership, or pay as you go.
8. For me, if I had found when 1st finding this site that I had to pay, don't know if I would have continued, probably not. But after discovering what was available more than happy to participate financially. What would work best for me would be donation even on trial basis, then if that didn't work go to annual paid membership with free read only. I'm fortunate enough that $50-$75 annually to do something I want is not going to interfere with my life, health or living, but realize there a lots of good people that that's not the case. But for me I'll try to do my part and help any way I can.

I have a question for you guys.

Let's assume the Forum remains free (as is) and with some of the improved functionality noted above (better search , different headings and ease of operation and pics). Further assume that if Bob adds pod casts , mag data base , or other out of Forum extras it will be optional and for a cost (on demand for a fee).

Then what are your ideas on how we grow this Forum and make it contribute to and along with the other PB business? I know Bob would be interested in any thoughts or ideas.

For this reason i don't think a trial membership then force to pay is the way to go. Most people will want to lurk for a while. a long while in some cases. I still say that if restrictions have to be put into place, the "premium forum" idea is the best. Let the amateurs like me banter and bicker all they want, it doesn't hurt anything, and in my case and lamar's, it convinces us to sign up. another good point, those of you on the site who stand to profit from people coming on and posting, will lose this if there is a reason to discourage people coming and posting. Now, this doesn't solve the problem for Bob et al, I understand, but it is a reason for pond consultants like G. Grimes to continue to support the forum, and a reason for more pond consultants to join. Also, this reinforces the need for the "geographic referral" page, which only presents itself as another source of income for Bob et al. People like G. Grimes (i'm not trying to pick on you in particular, just the above example) could pay a small fee for the ad, or commission to pondboss for business that came from the site.

Again, this is the general attitude of people on the web. They see these "pay to play" sites and think they are all generally scams, whether it is an honest venture or not. I can think of a few forums I signed up for hoping to get the answer to a question, then got jerked around and cancelled my subscription. After this experience, I doubt i would ever bother to find out if it was legitimate or not. most people will feel this way
I am one of these people, and came to this forum because i needed to know how to help a lake on a strict budget. I think alienating people in similar situations would be a detriment to all involved.

Ok, I think i have probably blathered on about my point enough.
like i said, longwinded, sorry.
-skinny

A) What are your opinions of paying a nominal annual fee to be a member of the forum?

I am not a fan of mandatory fee sites. Over the years I have belonged to a multitude of forums. From professional CPA type forums to car club forums. Some of them were smaller forums, some of them were huge forums. None of them required a mandatory fee. Several of them had a suggested donation. I completely understand the need to reduce forum costs and the desire to convert forum users to magazine subscribers and customers of supporting vendors – that makes good business sense. But IMHO if you require people to pay to view a forum you will drive away existing members and you will discourage new members.

One of the forums I use to belong to is a huge car club forum (I don’t belong anymore because I sold the car). This forum started out as a moderate sized forum and has grown to enormous proportions (over 100,000 members, over 9 million posts, averaging 25,000 posts per week). I started with the forum just at the time the site started growing exponentially (merely co-incidental, I had nothing to do with this growth). The “owners” of the forum could not keep up the cost of forum software and hardware upgrades – the forum slowed way down and began to frequently crash – the forum reached a crisis point. Several members, myself included, suggested a voluntary contribution system. Members were free to donate any amount over $10 that they wanted to. If you donated $10 or more per year the message “bronze supporter” appeared below your name. If you contributed $50 or more per year you were designated “silver supporter” and finally for $75 or more per year the designation was “gold supporter.” This system worked extremely well. The site received so much support that they were able to completely upgrade both the forum hardware and software. It became a sense of pride to become a supporting member. Much like the “I subscribe” message that appear here in signature lines.

It is my opinion, and of course this is just an opinion, if you require people to pay to belong to a site, you will significantly reduce the traffic to this site. If you ask for a voluntary donation to pay for the site I think you would be pleasantly surprised at how many of us would step forward and offer a donation.

B) Would you rather have a copy of the magazine in the mail, or an e-magazine?

I subscribe to both e-publications and to print publications. Personally I really like the magazine. I can read it when not in front of my computer. I work on my computer all day long. At the end of the day I don’t want to stare at the monitor(s) any longer. I’ve had enough of computer monitors for one day. A magazine I can read anywhere, anytime.

C) If you got the e-magazine, would you stop subscribing to the printed copy?

No.

D) How to you feel about having a free membership that has limited access to content? This may be a "read only" version of the forum. It may mean being able to access some articles, podcasts, videos, but having to pay for selected e-information.

IMHO limited access will mean limited forum growth. If you require people to pay to post then it is my opinion that many potential members will simply choose not to post. IMHO you will lose the potential member before you even know they are there.

E) Then, a "small" membership fee that has access to all the content, some of which is 'pay as you go', such as some of the e-information? This includes all privileges of the forum, including posting.
EE)Or, a "gold" membership, where you can have access to all the website, along with a "members only" forum where you get specific advice to specific problems from the top pros in the industry? This membership also includes a subscription to the magazine.
F) Finally, how much is this stuff worth? What should someone pay for a "medium" membership and what would you expect to receive. And, same question for the "gold" membership.

These last three (E, EE and F) are all related. Everyone’s idea of what a “small fee” is will probably vary, possibly even significantly. It is my opinion that if you require potential members to pay a fee prior to posting then you will significantly reduce the number of new members this site receives.

As far as a “gold membership” my answer is “it all depends.” How much would it cost and what benefits would be received.

Other issues:

Posting photos:
I have hosted a car website in the past. I paid for it personally. I did not have a forum attached so I cannot discuss any forum related issues – I simply do not have first hand experience or knowledge in this area. On my site I hosted all of the photos of cars, people, events, etc. Hosting photos is very expensive and editing photos is very time consuming. Digital cameras these days take photos that are massive in file size. In order to reduce the cost of storage, I had a submission requirement as to photo dimensions and file size. About half of the photo submissions complied with the requirement, the other half did not and I personally had to edit the photos. This took a ton of time and effort. With the growth of the site’s popularity I received more and more photos. I kept having to purchase more and more file storage. It got costly in a hurry.
I recommend against this site hosting photos. I will get expensive – fast. IMHO posting photos to this site is not that difficult. Like anything else it is a process to be learned but once learned it is fairly easy. Photobucket (the service I use) is free, so are several others. The archives describe in detail how to post a photo but if any member has a problem please feel free to ask again.

Searching:
I don’t use the forum's search button any more. To me is was frustrating and once I was taught the google site search function I began to exclusively use that. I don’t remember who taught me that tip but it was a member here and I find it an invaluable tool.

Thread hijacking:
Guilty as charged. I’m probably one of the largest culprits of this. I apologize if I have offended or angered anyone by hijacking their thread. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – If I ever make a post to your thread that you want removed please PM me. I will delete it. I won’t haggle with you, I won’t argue with you, I’ll delete it plain and simple.

I have heard over and over again that one of the primary reasons that people like this forum is the family atmosphere. A sense of belonging. IMHO part of that environment is humor. If this forum becomes a purely technical forum (you should read some of my tax forums, they make even me want to poke my eyes out) then, I believe, you will lose many people here. Members here post about births and deaths in their family, illnesses, good times and bad times. Could the forum survive without these posts? Of course it could. Would the forum retain a family feeling? I think not. People here care about other members and have come to know other members on a personal level – this doesn’t happen much with other forums or at least in other forums that I have belonged to.

I don’t have the education or experience to post much of anything meaningful to this forum. Several years ago I took it upon myself to be a member of the welcoming committee. I didn’t see that happening much. Someone would post a question and the question would be answered. On only very rare occasions would someone actually receive a welcome to the forum greeting. It felt too impersonal to me. So myself and several others began welcoming new members to the site. Sort of way of extending a friendly handshake and saying “Hi, I’m glad you’re here.”

Welcoming new members and providing some comic relief is all I have to offer to this forum. I humbly apologize to anyone that I have offended via a thread hijack.

In conclusion (good lord will this post ever end?):
Personally I believe that there are much better ways to make this site more profitable to the owners and vendors than to require potential members to pay prior to posting. I can honestly state that if I had been required to pay prior to a first post then I would never have posted. However if after posting I found I liked the site then I would make a voluntary contribution – I have done exactly that in other forums in the past.

As far as how to make the forum usage convert to profitable venture, I am certainly not an expert in these matters and so I shall defer to others in the mechanics of how that should occur to someone that is such an expert.

One suggestion that I have to offer is to put together packages of articles on a given subject matter and to sell these packages in a digital format. For example perhaps a package of 10 Pond Boss magazine articles on how to raise bluegill would sell for $10 and would be available in the “Pond Boss Store” tab.

I personally do not take any offense to a supporting vendor that uses this site to sell goods or services. To me this makes perfect sense. Us pond owners have a need, we post a question, a vendor provides a solution. Everyone wins. I certainly am not offended by any such interaction.

It has been my distinct honor to be a member of this forum. I consider many of you a personal friend. I have been supported by this forum’s membership in times of family tragedy and in times of joy. This has never happened to me in any other forum to which I have belonged. Regardless of what changes are made to this forum I sincerely hope that we are able to preserve the family environment that has been created here.

Search engines. broken record anyone? sorry, i really hope i am not making everyone hate the sight of my posts....
using a broad match to the queries that brought me to this site through google, google reports that there are 1590 searches monthly related to small largemouth, overpopulated largemouth, small largemouth bass and other key search terms.
Once you get those people to the site, then you can measure your traffic in google analytics and sell bigger, better ad space to the interested parties.

Second, you can sell solutions to these common problems (hence the last thread i started) via e-articles, e-books, print books etc. Not to mention selling other products like purina products, designs for making homemade fish habitats etc.

-skinny

DIED, probably shouldn't have said that because it is Mikes and Bobs business, not mine.

However, the reality is that the Forum members are about 99% do-it-your selfers.

Jeff beat me to it. That's what i meant to say.
Thanks
-skinny

You guys type and post too fast. with all these opinions being posted why not do an online survey incorporating these suggestion for a general consensus to guide the owners in the decisions they need and want to make. For me, agree with everything JHAP just posted.

Wow! What a flurry!
Let me offer more clarity from home base. First, I'm hearing everything you guys are saying.
I have no intention of making the forum a "pay" site. I like that old cliche' "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The forum is where we'll put the "donate" tab and people can pay what they wish. We'll leave the forum as is...maybe add a few topics to help bring Brettski's wishes true.
We have several motives...
1) Increase our paid subscriber numbers.
2) Maximize search engine optimation by adding more content and learning how to better play that game. (skinnybass, let's talk).
3) We've not added content to the website. We offered a few books, videos, etc. and depended on the forum for content.
4) Fore newbies and lurkers, it's hard to find information...that's why I made the comment about hijackers. Personally, I think the hijackings are a big reason people actually read many threads. It's funny, entertaining stuff. By adding content, in the form of e-books, articles, podcasts, etc., we offer specific information. I think some of these topics should be free, but some of them should be sold.
5) It's the content that I'm trying to figure out how to market.
6) Advertising...I totally agree. This site is "mined" by several folks, several of which don't advertise...some do. I've heard some of the stories about the marketing of goods and services via pm's from this site. I like it, but I also think those sellers should make the situation mutually beneficial for those who facilitate the sale.
7) I also have an idealistic side. I truly believe it is our mission to spread the word to teach people how to be better stewards of our land and water resources. To that end, we need a bigger audience, and since we are in the information business, I think it's fair to benefit from this opportunity...at least a little bit.

Keep those thoughts coming.

Understand this:

We don't intend to make the current for a "pay" gig.
We do intend to increase paid subscriber numbers.
We do intend to add lots of content to the site, independent of the forum. Some of this will be free, some won't.

Thanks for the valuable input. We are definitely listening.

I like the ideas of polls, possibly for this thread itself, but for others as well. Other forums which have a similar lay out as this one have a poll option. This forum doesn't. The ability to post a poll where people can vote would be a nice addition.

i dont know dave, i thought yer comments were absolutely perfect, and it made me think about how does bob or anybody else gauge the amount of business they get from internet exposure ....which is the crux of this to my mind, i also had the same thought that most here are DIYs and use this forum to help, its an incredible resource.

i dont know, i may be way off base but my mind quickly condensed this to
a) is the real issue gaining another avenue of profit while hosting the best pond forum possible (which is admirable and i personally would support donation based changes), or
b) offsetting losses due to hosting the website assuming "pond boss" has not measurably grown enough as a result of the forum to absorb continued hosting a free forum (as a business/marketing expense)?

i have no ulterior motives, just a curious dumb geologist trying to understand better, and am honored to be here carrying a deep respect for bob and all he's done.

great post BTW jhap.

I'm picking up what you are throwing down, CJ. I like polls too.

Also the brag board could be expanded beyond the one thread for fishing 2010. There have to be tons of different fishermen here, saltwater, big bluegill, GSF, etc. There could be multiple threads for multiple breeds.

-skinny

Whew busy catching up from being out of town but read most of the post. I echo most thoughts. Bob know this but I want him to succeed not just do this out of the goodness of his heart. I just spoke with advertising editor of a big forum here in Georgia. He echoes Bob’s thoughts. It is even worse for him. He has guys come on the free forum and slam an advertiser of the magazine and recommend a non advertising competitor of a certain product or service. The advertiser then pulls his ad in the magazine. Sometimes he wonders why they run this forum. Bob sound familiar at all? He gave me many recommendations and Bob call me if you want his number, very knowledgeable.

Does the forum make money? So why does Bob spent money on running it? Question needs asking. Do you realize band width, etc. and the cost to run the “free public” forum. If you house pics here it cost money in more band width usage.
First I feel strongly as others do that paying for the forum will kill it. Extra service sure charge for that, great idea. I do not know the answers, Nate to me is a great guy for addressing some of these ideas (marketing). Geographical idea is good if pulled off. Lamar we do py to be listed in resource guide nto sure many folks know about it. Not sure I have ever got a call from it being listed for years. Maybe charge more but have it popup on banner, many ideas out there.

This forum is in front of tons of pondowners and is a valuable tool for both potential vendors (me) and magazine subscribers. I know I have asked about banner ads a couple of times but yet to find out how much it will cost me- Bob get gayle to send me this info?? Anyway I got this advice, get in touch with google at http://www.adsense.com It is free to add to this site and owners of this site get paid as folks click on links, extra income. One time setup fee from IT guy. And/or sell more banner ads. They can be placed on the forum sidebar ,etc not just on header. Right now not enough of this type material on here. Not sure it will work but I’m willing to view a free forum but “deal with” ads. I guess my point is… I’m a “vendor” and I think vendors need to be the one paying not the user of the site.
I like the extra gold level etc deal-just need to figure out what you get for that $. The site needs to be better utilized to sell stuff to then have it at least breaking even. How do you do it-you need a better brain than mine.

Ok since I started typing this and fielding calls about 30 more post so some might be repeat info.

Kudos to what Bob Lusk just said, put up the donation tab, I,ll check, credit card or pay pal minute its available. I have no commercial interest in what I do on this site, just looking for the WOW factor from my grandchildren, family, and friends when they fish my lake, and you made me realize my problem and are helping me on my way to fixing it.
Thanks,
Lamar

You bet. anytime. Step 1, adding permanent content independent of the forum, I see you've already got that one under your belt.

Rock Fish on!

Hey, what's this green stuff in my pond?

Good question. I think I have an overpopulation of 12 lb LMB. I catch them on every cast and can't seem to catch any bluegill under 12". I blame having too much information on the forum as well as the aeration system and feed that I purchased because of advertisers in the magazine.

To further answer the above question: My labs are starting to shed. Anyone know how to keep a dog from shedding.