Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait PB may/june09 Science & the cutting edge....

Thanks for the post. Hybrid crops and livestock are not typically between different species, but rather between different lines within one species. As I noted, I have no knowledge as to how this works within LMB. For me, I actually prefer genetic diversity over genetic superiority. Superiority is only relative to the current conditions. A study in the Galapagos found that a lizard population became larger over time. Scientists could not understand why the lizards had taken so long to start increasing in size. Then a drought struck and only the small lizards survived.

I think with seeds used in agriculture such as corn, hybrid has a slightly different definition. The Galapagos are certainly a very interesting place to studying genetics, as are most highly isolated island biotas.

CJBS - how are the crops and fish different?

RAH, if that was an over simplification, I'm not asking any really tough questions.

From Wikipedia

Plants differ from animals in a few ways that make the study of plant genetics interesting. Like mitochondria, chloroplasts have their own DNA, complicating pedigrees somewhat. Like animals, plants have somatic mutations regularly, but these mutations can contribute to the germ line with ease, since flowers develop at the ends of branches composed of somatic cells. People have known of this for centuries, and mutant branches are called "sports". If the fruit on the sport is economically desirable, a new cultivar may be obtained.

Some plant species are capable of self-fertilization, and some are nearly exclusively self-fertilizers. This means that a plant can be both mother and father to its offspring, a rare occurrence in the animals. Scientists and hobbyists attempting to make crosses between different plants must take special measures to prevent the plants from self-fertilizing.

Plants are generally more capable of surviving, and indeed flourishing, as polyploids. Polyploidy, the presence of extra sets of chromosomes, is not usually compatible with life in animals. In plants, polyploid individuals are created frequently by a variety of processes, and once created usually cannot cross back to the parental type. Polyploid individuals, if capable of self-fertilizing, can give rise to a new genetically distinct lineage, which can be the start of a new species. This is often called "instant speciation". Polyploids generally have larger fruit, an economically desirable trait, and many human food crops, including wheat, maize, potatoes, peanuts, strawberries and tobacco, are either accidentally or deliberately created polyploids.

Hybrids between plant species are easy to create by hand-pollination, and may be more successful on average than hybrids between animal species. Often tens of thousands of offspring from a single cross are raised and tested to obtain a single individual with desired characteristics. People create hybrids for economic and aesthetic reasons, especially with orchids.

Thanks Eric...

Thanks to everyone for their help in answering my questions, there is certainly a wealth of information to be had on this board. Now i need to find a supplier for all three (or maybe just two) types of bass for this fall. Anyone planning to head this way during the fall that could provide any northern bass, only need 10. I know its not much but if someone else was already planning to get some, might my fish tag along? I already have my name on the list at Shongaloo Fisheries for 10 florida bass 6inch size in the fall. So I need F1 and Northern and that should be it. Anyone heading this way in the fall?

Check with Greg Grimes. He is in Ga and supplied me with Northerns and F-1s that size. If you wanted you could probably catch a couple Flas to add over time.

ewest - all of the differences between plant and animal genetics that you mention are correct, but not relavant to my example. An example in livestock would be crossbreed cattle. My crop example involves crosses between different lines of diploid plants. Maternal inheritance via chloroplasts or mitochondria, sports, self-fertilization, cross-species crosses, polyploidy, and many other genetic phenomina occur, but are not really relavent to my example.

If you thought that Lemarck was totally wrong and only Darwin was right. Surf the web on the topic of epigenetics (inheritance of aquired traits). Genetics is really cool, and there is an exception for every rule.

I'll check with GG but i'm not at all interested in adding fish from anywhere around here. Not that they are toxic waste dumps just dont want to catch anything i cant get rid if( ugh, sound as if i'm dating again ).

Rcn, sorry been out of town. I was the presenter at PB. I thought I was clear this is a stocking program for quality bass. I do feel strongly it works well. ¾ acre not sure I would say go this route though. You are limited on total pounds of bass you can produce. If you are willing to only catch a few bass enjoy lots of bluegill fishing then stocking numbers are solid.

I differ on opinion on waiting for fall stocking of bass. With what you have I suggest total 1500 bg, 300 res, fhm are good, bag of golden shiner fry from Anderson. If this is done with a good 2” bluegill asap put your bass in as 2 inch fingerlings in June- about 35 of em. Up north this would not work, here especially as far south as you are it works great. The bluegill will grow like gang busters in a new pond and spawn in April. This will supply ample forage for the new little 2 inch bass. I the fall your bass will be much bigger than a hatchery bass grown in crowded conditions. Just this last year we did this same scenario the bass were over 11 inches in Nov.

The other reason not to wait is availability of all three subspecies at 6 inches is very limited and more costly. I do not know many hatcheries that can work with that small a quantity. I know we have a $100 minimum order. I will be in Greenville, FL in June with the fingerlings if interested. Sounds like your are willing to do it right. Let us know if we can be of assistance.

Side bar…I’m not sure of the genetic answer of the bass. I know we have used F1’s ( supposedly F1’s who really knows) and they have grown like crazy and extremely aggressive. Would Fx bass grown just as well or fla grown better or northern been more aggressive not sure?? BUT clients very pleased with the F1. We have attempted in last couple of years to mix bass subspecies as per Ewest description when possible but logistically nightmare with all the hatcheries involved.

Greg, thanks for your input. I want to have a good batch of BG for the kids and for fish fryin, etc... For myself I would really like to have just a few really nice bass. Catch and release until otherwise needed would be the general idea for the bass. As long as I can get these two things id be happy. My objectives as they are, which is the right path to take? Gregs or Ewest? I dont know which? I spoke with the local fishery and they say my 4-500 crawfish should be ready for delivery by next month, so keep that in mind for forage as well. Both of your opinions are certainly greatly appreciated, I just dont know which plan is the best way two get where i want to be. I do want to do this right just that now it seams that I have two "right" ways to do it... Greg, you mention shiners, from what I had been reading it seemed as if everyone agreed that any type of shiner should not be put in a pond as small as mine due to overcrowding. That was the reason why i was trying to find a supplier for lake chubsuckers as a replacement for the shiners (which i have yet to find). Is this one of those times "when it just depends"? I like the chubsucker idea better myself, they clean the bottom of the pond and serve as bait.

I can not tell you what to do. My advice is to watch the pond if you see bluegill spawning and coming to feeders and feel you have lots of fish no reason in my opinion to wait until fall on the bass. And vice versa if sumpin' happened then yes you dont want the bass in too early.

For my custoemrs who follow the plan bass grow well with spring stocking followitng oct-march forage stocking.

The shiners wil not "takeover" if you goal is good size bass- you want lots of em to ehlp bass growth. You are limited on threadfins shad options. The best chance for establishement and cheapest option is this srping with the "fry in a bag" program.

Thanks Greg i'll decide which way to go shortly. Do you have any lake chubsuckers? If not will you be in an area where you can get some b4 you come to fl this summer? I would want grown/spawning size fish.

Greg, if you do find some LCS in the electroshocking adventures, I'd be interested in seeing some photos of them and possibly a few adults as well. Even if I have to drive to GA to pick them up!

I just got the PO today for fishery survey for Fort Gordan- (20 ponds in Augusta). Yippy for me. We planned on ridding of thousands of chubsuckers.

WHo else wants them? i can house a certain number in our flow thru system for a short while. I will take pics. I'm not convinced they are going to help bass growth but hey ??

Greg, sent u a pm.

Greg, let me know when you get close to that time... I'd run this by Bill Cody, he may be interested in some adults and a different blood line as well. Adults may be a little easier to cage culture? Any photos of the LCS you've caught in the past?

http://lakework.com/photo_gallery/gallery2/v/Fish+ID/Sucker/
please feel free to id as many as you can.

This is what I get most of the time. http://lakework.com/photo_gallery/gallery2/v/Fish+ID/Sucker/P1010178.JPG.html

The second link is definitely chubsuckers... Just don't know if they are lake or creek chubsuckers. When they are adults they are very difficult to tell apart. In some of the other pictures are redhouse, white and hognose suckers. Quite a mix! Any idea what the bass populations are like in these lakes? Those suckers look like tasty morsels to me....

CJ thanks In most cases bass are poor when we see high numbers of chubsuckers. Is the poor bass growth from the "suckers" populaiton. Usually high amount of vegetation, very acidic lakes, older, not well managed, etc. when we see them so not sure?

I also see strong cycles when we begin management. i.e. rid of vegetation the bass weights go up quickly so thinking they hammer the exposed suckers.

Typically poor predator growth occurs in ponds/lakes with high amounts of vegetation - too much cover. Too much of a good thing is usually bad even for producing good predator populations. I think one can see very similar results of poor predator populations with most any prey fish including shad,BG, GSH, RES, YP, PS, HBG, CNBG, maybe even FHM, when too much cover is available. Not well managed also usually results in poor quality fisheries. Typically animal populations go through cycles of highs and lows - thats normal. To get the best results from those animal communities one should try to buffer the high and lows to produce a good balance among all the populations. Knowing that balance and how to achieve it is what we are about here at Pomd Boss.

Maybe we can arrange for Rainman to do some delivery of chubsuckers? Does he travel that far? Thoughts?

Would be an interesting idea... A trip from GA, through VA on to OH may work as it is a generally a straight line. Chubsuckers do seem to do best is softer acidic waters with large amounts of vegetation. I am betting Richmond Mill has a decent population of chubsuckers...

RM does have some good sucker population. Remember when I shocked it. I might be doing some analysis up toward VA later this spring. Headed out of town see yall monday.