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PM sent.

There are several aspects to this project. I have had little success using GC for algae management. They generally prefer to eat everything else before they eat algae. Also Tilapia are not a magic bullet, I wish they were. There are several management efforts we implore to manage algae. But again they are a symptom first we have to address problem.

Also there are strains of algae that grow in cold water. Once water temps warm up these species will die off and another species will take its place.

You are very close to us. Let's talk about your situation and come up with a solution.

In response to difference between cutrine plus and copper sulfate. Cutrine Plus has chelated copper basically chelated copper is combined with other inert ingredients to keep copper more active during a longer period of time. Usually 10 to 14 days. It will not bind to soil.

Copper Sulfate is very fast acting but any excess copper can become bound in soils. This can disrupt natural cycle and growth of aquatic invertebrates that we hold near and dear.


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Chad:

You are right about FA growing in cold water. I've got it growing now in my pond (noticeable in the diffuser area) now.
What temp does it die off at?


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 Quote:
What temp does it (cold water filamentous algae) die off at?

Most can guess my first response - "It all depends". It depends primarily on the species of algae. Individual species can have specific temperature preferences. I am talking species of algae here not genera as in a scientific name of Genus species. The Genus grouping can have numerous species within it similar to the genus Lepomis (panfish sunfishes). Another example would be threadfin, and gizzard shad. Both in genus Dorosoma, but one preferring warmer temps. Within a genus one can be warm loving, one cold loving and several with no temperature preference technically referred to as eurythermal - tolerating a wide temperature range.
The big problem with all this is to get a specific name for many of the species of at least green algae, one has to see them in certain reproductive stages which is not all that common so they can then only be identified to genus.


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Thanks Bill. I noticed algae growing on the fish cage, and the line that was put in the water with the aerator for the winter. Some of it is "blowing" in the water movement that is caused by the aerator. If it sticks around 'till the Blues get stocked this Spring, they will have a full dinner plate.


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I've read through this thread. Here are a few on my opinions.
1. Excess nutrients are feeding your FA problem. Excess nutrients can come from many sources. I think in your case they mainly come from: 1. the newly exposed dirt from pond construction, 2. water runoff from hill sides, 3. leaves (decomposition) from the trees along one shore, and 4. a MAJORITY probably come from the stream that drains the neighborhood 15 houses and lord knows what else. Nutrients ARE the problem and FA is a sign nutrients are present in pretty high amounts (as Chad says) . FA will thrive on a nutrient balance (or nitrogen : phosphorus ratio) that will not or cannot produce a green water bloom due to the balance/ratio or sometimes because as mentioned in the posts (Walt) the FA starts first and just out competes the phytoplankton (bloom). First come, first served, sort of thing. ANOTHER hindrance to the development of a bloom can be incorrect alkalinity. (pH is not alkalinity). Basically alkalinity is testing a different substance than pH and Alk is tested a different way. Sometimes liming in itself (increasing alkalinity) will stimulate a bloom IF enough nutrients and the correct balances/ratios are present. Almost always to get blooms excess nutrients are added and it is hoped the application results in the correct nutrient ratio. Rarely does anyone (except academic types) actually test for the nutrient balance/ratios. Bottom line if you lime and fertilize - AERATE to keep things as good as possible.

2. A pond such as yours is predestined to fish kills due to in a valley, lack of wind action, lots of seasonal leaf inputs, lots of cycling of growing, dead or dying FA, and lots of nutrient inputs.

3. Cutrine is copper sulfate that has been chemically modified basically to persist longer in the water column. It involves buffering the copper ions so they more slowly form a copper precipitate. Contrary to what was mentioned, all of it does eventually (sooner or later) become mineralized or bound as copper carbonate and goes into the sediments where it, usually as a inert substance, accumulates as more is added over and over in future treatments. Some copper may be bound in the longer term of the organic biomass where it takes time to work itself into the sediments.

4. Speculation occurred as to what would happen to FA when you aerate. My experience is FA very often reoccurs at some point after ponds are aerated and this is due to excess nutrients still being present that are not used by some other plant be it phytoplankton, rooted vegetation, attached algae (periphyton) or FA. When nutrients are present and other plants are not growing, FA always does grow. Almost never does aeration forever eliminate FA. Sometimes aeration does not even reduce it. Success with this is usually dependant on the source of the nutrients. Good aeration can reduce internal recycling of nutrients and it doesn't do much of anything to dissolved nutrients entering the pond from external sources.

5. As mentioned if you fertilize, first make sure alkalinity is at least 50 ppm (mg/L) (higher is better), apply early before FA starts or establishes, and then reapply enough fertilizer about weekly(?) monthly to maintain enough nutrients present to keep water visibility at about 18"-24". Usually it takes less fertilizer to maintain the bloom than to get it started. Reduce fertilizing in late summer. Mid to Late summer fertilizing can lead to nuisance bluegreen algae blooms.

6. MAYBE - Adding tilapia, and their eating of the algae, and if alkalinity is above 50, and with aeration you could get a natural phytoplankton bloom due to tilapia eating algae and recycling the nutrients in presence of higher alkalinities. This assumes the tilapia will eat your specific type of FA.

7. You mentioned a long tube aerator that would run the length of the pond. Those can be effective. However they provide a gentle laminar upwelling flow and I think they do not provide a strong upwelling to move lots of water forcefully to rapidly turn over a pond's water column which is most beneficial for most pond applications.


Last edited by Bill Cody; 02/07/10 07:18 PM.

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 Originally Posted By: Chad Fikes
In response to difference between cutrine plus and copper sulfate. Cutrine Plus has chelated copper basically chelated copper is combined with other inert ingredients to keep copper more active during a longer period of time. Usually 10 to 14 days. It will not bind to soil.

Copper Sulfate is very fast acting but any excess copper can become bound in soils. This can disrupt natural cycle and growth of aquatic invertebrates that we hold near and dear.


 Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
3. Cutrine is copper sulfate that has been chemically modified basically to persist longer in the water column. It involves buffering the copper ions so they more slowly form a copper precipitate. Contrary to what was mentioned, all of it does eventually (sooner or later) become mineralized or bound as copper carbonate and goes into the sediments where it, usually as a inert substance, accumulates as more is added over and over in future treatments. Some copper may be bound in the longer term of the organic biomass where it takes time to work itself into the sediments.


So once again, pretending that you are speaking to a complete idiot, Cutrine Plus is not a horrible poison that will cause either my fish or myself to grow additional appendages, right?

Here I tried to simplify the response:

[____] Don't worry JHAP, Cutrine Plus is fine in moderation, although I would stop mixing it with your Captain & Cokes "just for that spicy after taste."

[____] Over a millennium or two Cutrine Plus could build up and cause you to glow in the dark.

[____] None of the above, explanation provided below in such simple terms that a 4 grader or even JHAP could understand.

Note: I have used a Reward/Cutrine Plus combination to treat Elodea and was very happy with the results.


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AFS article

Copper is toxic to aquatic animals at concentrations that
depend on the animal species and the water chemistry(i .e.,
pH, hardness and alkalinity).Using Cutrine, (the predecessor t
o Cutrine-Plus,0 .8 times as concentrated S kea and
Simonin( 1979 )reported a 96-h LC50 to fingerling largemouth
bass (Micropterus salmoides) of 6.4 mg copper per
liter at 21.1 øC (methyl orange alkalinity of 53 mg/L) and
0.21 mg/L at 18.3 ø C (methyl orange alkalinity of 95 mg/L)
for fathead minnows (Pimephales promelas). Johnson
(1974), who tested copper sulfate with the marine shrimp
(Penaeus duorarum, P. stylirostris, and P. setiferus),
determinedth at copper sulfate could b e used with juveniles
of these species at levels of 0.5-1.0m g/L as copper sulfate
(alkalinity of 380 mg/L calcium carbonate.).

SRAC http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/1239413-SRA...4398261b3e4b767
Copper sulfate
(Various trade names)
Copper sulfate is a contact herbicide
primarily used to control
algae. However, it is not effective
for Pithophora control. Copper
can interfere with gill functions
and, if improperly used, can be
toxic to fish and zooplankton.
Fish species such as trout and
koi are particularly sensitive to
copper. However, most fish kills
that occur after copper sulfate
treatment are caused by a massive
algae kill and the subsequent
oxygen depletion.
Copper sulfate is also formulated
as a solution made by dissolving
the crystals in a sulfuric acid
solution. These acidified copper
solutions are registered for aquatic
use and sold under various
trade names (e.g., Copper Cat,
EarthTec, AgriTec, etc.).
The effectiveness and safety of
copper sulfate are determined by
alkalinity and water temperature.
In water with an alkalinity ≤ 50
ppm, the rate of copper sulfate
needed to control algae can be
toxic to fish. Copper treatment at
water alkalinities of ≤ 20 ppm is
extremely risky. In high alkalinity
(≤ 250 ppm) water, copper sulfate
quickly precipitates out and
is not effective for algae control.
The toxicity of copper sulfate to
fish increases as water temperature
increases. Avoid copper sulfate
applications during hot summer
months. (For additional
information on treating with copper
see SRAC Publication No.
410, Calculating Treatments for
Ponds and Tanks.)
Chelated copper
(Cutrine®, Komeen, K-Tea®,
Nautique® and other trade names)
Copper that is held in an organic
complex is known as chelated
copper. Chelated copper formulations
do not readily precipitate in
high alkalinity waters, but stay in
solution and remain active longer
than copper sulfate. Chelated copper
is less corrosive to application
equipment than copper sulfate.
Because it is more soluble, chelated
copper is generally used at
slightly lower rates than copper
sulfate. Chelated copper formulations
are slightly less toxic to fish
than copper sulfate. However, in
waters with low alkalinity (≤ 20
ppm), or in water with an alkalinity
of ≤ 50 ppm that contains
trout, using chelated copper is
extremely risky, particularly during
the summer. Some of the
chelated copper compounds work
on higher plants (e.g., hydrilla,
Najas spp., etc.). Check specific
labels for activity or refer to the
Aquaplant Web site at http://aquaplant.
tamu.edu.

AQUA PLANT
Cutrine Plus, K-Tea, Captain, and Clearigate are all chelated or compound copper herbicides and can be used in a mixture with Reward or Aquathol K. Other chelated or compound copper formulations are available but are not linked to this web site.
Copper Sulfate or "blue stone" is probably the most commonly used algal treatments because of its availability and low cost. Copper sulfate comes in several forms depending on how finely it is ground. Smaller crystals will dissolve easier than larger crystals. In very hard water it is difficult to use copper sulfate because it binds with the calcium, precipitates out of solution, and renders the copper ineffective as an algaecide.
All copper compounds can be toxic to fish if used above labeled rates and can be toxic in soft or acidic waters even at label rates. Before using copper is it best to test the pond water�s alkalinity and adjust copper treatments to alkalinity concentrations. For additional information on using copper sulfate see the SRAC #410 Calculating Treatments for Ponds and Tanks.



To our knowledge Copper Sulfate was the first chemical to be used for algae control. Although Copper Sulfate will kill algae, it is a product that we do not normally recommend.
Copper Sulfate reacts to the hardness of the water that it is being applied to, forming an insoluble salt called copper carbonate. The harder the water being treated the less effective the product is, in very hard waters, Copper Sulfate can have less than a minute of active killing time on the algae.
Even though there are more effective and safer products on the market, the use of Copper Sulfate for algae control is still very common, for two reasons, cost and ease of application.
In looking at a per treatment cost on Copper Sulfate versus the cost of Cutrine-Plus or Captain Algaecide, the Copper Sulfate is less expensive. Looking at it on a per treatment basis is misleading, many times the Copper Sulfate user will spend as much or more in a years time, since the Copper Sulfate will not give the length of control that the chelated copper compounds will.
One of the most common methods for applying Copper Sulfate is to put it in a burlap bag and drag it around the pond or lake in back of a boat, or simply to broadcast it by hand, there is no doubt that Copper Sulfate is easier to apply than a liquid compound that must be diluted and sprayed over the surface of the water.
Copper Sulfate is normally used at a rate of 10 lbs. per surface acre, Copper Sulfate unlike the chelated copper compounds, is very toxic to fish food organisms, and unless you are very careful can even kill fish. Toxicity increases as water hardness decreases.
Long term use of Copper Sulfate can actually lead to severe algae problems, although this must sound strange what happens is that over a period of years the copper carbonate buildup on the bottom of the pond actually will inhibit the growth of rooted bottom vegetation. Once rooted bottom vegetation cannot grow due to the buildup of copper carbonate on the bottom, the nutrients that this vegetation would have tied up is now available to excess algae growth.
We highly recommend that you consider using one of the chelated copper compounds, to avoid any loss of fish or damage to the natural balance of your body of water.
Negative info can’t copy http://www.chemone.com/default/other/ark_aquafarming_vol_21_no_2_fall_2004.pdf

Chemistry http://www.mass.gov/agr/pesticides/aquatic/docs/copper.pdf

Pro by fisheries biologist http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/algae_copper.html
Copper sulfate was used many years ago for algae control however there was adverse environmental effects of copper build-up in the bottom sediments when this product was used. Since then and over the last 30 years or so, a chelated (chemically locked in) copper compound was formulated called Cutrine-Plus(available in liquid or granular). The product is far superior to copper sulfate in that it provides a longer contact (killing) time due to its stability to work in alkaline waters. It also provides a longer lasting control than copper sulfate with lower copper dosages being used and requires less frequent applications. Research and field usuage have shown a high potential for detrimental environmental effects. In certain waters, copper sulfate is toxic to fish and other organisms. Overuse of this product is common due to its short-term effectiveness. This can result in copper build-up in the sediments leading to a sterile bottom. A sterile bottom will lead to a lack of beneficial bacteria and cause among other things, high algae blooms which in effect, reduces the chances for aquatic plants to grow due to the shading on the bottom caused from the thick algae. When aquatic plant growth diminishes, so can fish growth and survival.




Last edited by ewest; 02/08/10 11:12 AM.















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Leave it to Eric to kill a perfectly good, humorous hyjack with great info!



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 Originally Posted By: Rainman
Leave it to Eric to kill a perfectly good, humorous hyjack with great info!


I know huh.

Actually my post wasn't intended as a hijack, I was just trying to convert all the science talk into something a bean counter could understand. I've read through Eric's post three times know and I think I've come to understand that my use of Reward/Cutrine is fine.

I will however be carefully inspecting all fish and wildlife caught or observed for any sign of the unusual.




JHAP
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Who you calling a bean counter?

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(FYI, JHAP took time out from counting beans to make that post.)


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 Originally Posted By: Theo Gallus
(FYI, JHAP took time out from counting beans to make that post.)


Not that he's an accountant or anything. I heard that was just a cover story, but that he actually works for Bush's Baked Beans and fills each can with just the right number of beans!


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Todd, that is a complete and utter lie.

I request, no I DEMAND a retraction.

Immediate moderator intervention is required.

I cannot allow this attack on my professionalism to remain un-checked.

I am surprised by your rumor spreading Todd. I simply did not think that you would stoop so low.




















I work for B&M and you know it.





Last edited by jeffhasapond; 02/14/10 12:13 PM. Reason: Brings an entirely new meaning to the term "Bush League" don't it?

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JHAP:
I thought you worked here.

THAT'S what I call "Bush League"!


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 Originally Posted By: jeffhasapond
Todd, that is a complete and utter lie.

I request, no I DEMAND a retraction.

Immediate moderator intervention is required.

I cannot allow this attack on my professionalism to remain un-checked.

I am surprised by your rumor spreading Todd. I simply did not think that you would stoop so low.




















I work for B&M and you know it.





Okay, okay! You called my bluff! I just didn't want to utter the "B&M" name amongst this group as I knew it would lead us down a toilet humor lined path! Think about it! Beans. Human bean processing by-product. B&M product name. BM bodily functions. It was all just too, too much for me to get started!


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