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Joined: Oct 2018
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We've looked and we can't find anything other than similar documents ewest provided above.
Milford percid gurus want to try it based on the problems that seem to be found common in the post hatch from ribbons on that combo.
There's something common to the fry dying off at 5-20 day post hatch.
The thought is having proper conditions to support the fry to get them to a larger size for study is target 1. and possibly allow continued growth.
It may be a short experiment Bill.
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I suspect that the genetics of the two species are too different for hybridizing yellow perch and walleye. IMO a "good" or high percentage of genetic compatibility of the parents has to be present for the hybrid develop successfully. Just one example - structure of the eggs of the two species are quite different. YP lay eggs embedded in a hollow gelatinous ribbon and WE scatter single eggs. Taxonomists consider these two species as belonging to different genera. To my weak genetic background of knowledge, most successful hybrids are produced from species within the same genus. Crossing a YP with a WE is like crossing a LMB and BG. Incompatibility of the YP and WE is evidenced by the difficulty during hatching and short life span of the fry. I am surprised the eggs even reach hatching stage.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/19/19 08:47 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent  Lunker
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Joined: Oct 2018
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5 fish made it to 1 yr. Those fish all appeared to be a resemblance more of WAE than anything but the last fish died about 17 months in at about 5.75" Probably not worth the effort of going any farther as it just wasn't meant to be and I strongly believe mother nature was not in agreement or different results would have been observed.
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Joined: Oct 2018
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Joined: Oct 2018
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Hi guys,
First I want to offer my congrats on a great site (lots of good discussion going on). Here are some responses to questions and comments raised in this thread. Cecil, thanks for sharing my original letter, the more people that know about saugeye the better. Re Bill Cody's question about early spawning perch: We have done and continue to do early and late out-of-season spawning of perch. The problem we face for spawning too early is that when the fry are hatched our ponds are still iced over so we have nowhere to go with them. I have tried intensive (in-tank) fry culture of perch without being successful enough to apply it on a commercial scale. I realize that some producers are reporting success but for me a 15% return on training the fry (and the associated labor involved) just doesn't compare with the kind of numbers that I get from pond culture of the fry.
Re several comments about production: The current bottleneck is the availability of sauger broodstock. Not many hatcheries produce sauger and with good reason. They are one of the most cannibalistic critters you have ever seen. Although since you are only producing enough broodstock to supply semen, this problem will be easy to overcome (one sauger male can fertilize thousands, no make that millions of walleye eggs to produce the hybrids). Re Dave Willis' comments: Dave you are right on target about the fertility of the hybrids (as good as either parent) and about the performance of the f2 generation. The hybrid vigour (read exceptional growth)expressed in the first generation hybrid seems to peter-out in subsequent crosses, and of course the impact of a fast growing exotic on naturally reproducing populations can be a disaster. The hybrid should only be stocked in isolated waters that do not have reproducing populations of the parental stocks. This being said the Wisconsin River has sauger, walleye and naturally occurring hybrids and although no genetic studies have been conducted it would seem that all three are doing okay. We did use the Otohime diet for taining with good success. This leads to one of the real considerations for hybrids in RAS. Since we can successfully train the hybrid (and walleye) fry, there is no need for a pond phase of fry production. The hybrids can be kept indoors for their entire lives. This was some great information at the time it was posted. To update this since, Triploid SAE will still reproduce-We have confirmed 3 consecutive years of this in 2 locations now in a very unexpected way due to the type of lake the reproduction has been documented in.. The updated portion of cannibalistic behavior is now we believe they (SAE) are no worse than any other specie. Crowding of any will cause the same result and the recommended stocking numbers for grow out has changed over the years. Nothing has changed on stocking with populations of either that are successfully recruiting-even with Triploids as we know now that the triploids have proven fertile themselves. Sauger do NOT produce much milt compared to WAE and it can become an issue real quick without numerous males and what we call suckavators to extract milt and use extender to get about 4 days use from the collected milt. It takes about 7-10 Sauger to get what 1 WAE will produce in sperm. Female Sauger also are hard to strip as they have the ability to quickly reverse the neurological signal that helps create/stimulate ovaries to mature, and can actually shut down in a very short time once captured. All Sauger that are captured for pure reproduction require hormone injection for egg and sperm collection. Probably one of the hardest fish to artificially produce using this method, hench the reason it just isn't done by even state agencies to any scale. The time, man power and physical input is huge. I'm glad Omaha has bumped this because we are entering a new phase of this, it's not new by any stretch but until now, it hasn't been available to anyone in a manner that would be possible to build enough numbers to get these in the hands of private pond owners consistently.
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Snipe, how often do you have to grade the fry to prevent massive cannibalism? Are they like SMB in this regard?
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Joined: Oct 2018
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Joined: Oct 2018
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If in large grow outs, no sorting is done. The states theory is natural course of action to get the best growth from the best fish.
The first 48 hr of hatch last year was stocked in a 7ac pond at 14,350 per acre (about 100,000 fry) we collected 62,000 and still had fish left. We were able to pull a late seine and collected another 13,000 from that pond, so 75,000 with no sorting isn't bad.. in fact it's probably really good, all things considered but we also stocked at a much lower rate than was recommended because I wasn't sure we could keep up with fertilizer program.
Personally, I think it best if those slower than average growers disappear.. I've tried to separate fish of other species this way and it always ends up that you have a small number of fish that are less than stelar performers and wasted space trying to save them, but I'm mostly a one man, sometimes 2 man operation trying to do 3 men's jobs.
Honestly, I think SMB are harder to manage than WAE..wicked little monsters.
Last edited by Snipe; 03/11/23 12:19 PM.
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