Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking Hartley's SMB Stocking

Time has come for me to establish SMB in my main pond. I'm considering a road trip to Hartley's in in Kingman KS for them. Here's the rundown:

Non feed trained SMB

2-3" = $2/ea
4-6" = $4/ea
6-9" = $8/ea

Goal: Establish SMB population
Pond: 3.5 acres, 2:1 slope, No Aeration, Abundant forage [GSH, FHM, PK Shrimp], 400 8-12" YP, 400 4-8" CSBG, 800 4-8" RES, 70 HSB 10-14"
Questions:
1. Is stocking non feed trained fish a big negative?
2. How does pricing above look? My research indicates it's reasonable.
3. Based on existing fish populations and other factors can you provide some guidance on Size and QTY of Fish to stock [or combination thereof?]

I have a 100G tank, keep alive diffusers and O2 tank and am ready to roll. I'd love to get away with stocking the smaller fish, but don't know if I should be concerned with predation from YP and HSB - hoping gape of YP and HSB are too small?

My orignal plan was to stock 200 2-3", 50-100 4-6", and bring back 6 9"er's for my repro pond.

Thanks in advance all.

How many are you going to stock/haul?

I'd go as big a size as you can just because of the HSB.

I don't see the YP as too much of a threat.

200-300

Prices are good compared to around here.

Think about going all 4"-6" or bigger.

FWIW, if your forage base is that good, pellet trained bass might not stay on feed anyway.

Thanks Theo and Sunil for your feedback. I will keep you apprised of the purchase.

IIRC you have little vegitation where the fingerlings can hide so as Theo suggests 4 - 6" might be best. But .. you would be able to purchase twice the number of 2 - 3" & again IIRC, expect apx. 40% loss due to predation which means you would still come out ahead? I think also you could expect to haul more smaller fish sucessfully?
Memory isn't my strong point any more so maybe someone that knows the data will chime in.
Reguarding Hartleys. That's where I got my SMB & have to add I was/am extreemly happy with the fish.
Sure wish he could supply YP. Where did you get your YP TJ?

Thanks my pal Ric...appreciate the feedback. I could stock 400 2-3"ers but I've read I can expect only 20% survival - those are $10 fish all a sudden! At that rate I'd be better off stocking the largest [6-9"] for $8 a pop.

YP from Rob Hofpar or Hopfar just North of me. I can find his contact info if you'd like. Great fish, zero morts, and they are huge after only 12 mos. I don't know if he can ship or not. I wish NC was closer to me...

I would go with the 4 to 6 as the 2 to 3 are certainly forage size for 8 the 12 inch perch. I'm even a little concerned with my 4 to 5 inch smallmouth with the same size perch in my pond.

So, TJ sends me a PM during the first half of the Vikings-Packer game! At the least, I had to wait until halftime to post, eh??

When I was in KS, Hartley was the most respected producer.

Sizes and predation? Just brainstorming, but I think the YEP would be very unlikely to eat even the 2-3 inch SMB, and will not eat the 4-6 inchers. I do worry more about the HSB. I think you'd be safer with the 4-6 for them.

Stockings rates? If you go with 4-6 inch fish, I don't think that I'd go over 50/acre. For 3.5 acres, that would be 175 total? What's everyone think about that??

As for non-feed trained: in tanks, I've often seen SMB learn to feed on prepared diets from other fishes. Maybe the same thing would happen in the pond? I don't have any experience in the ponds compared to tanks, though.

Dave

Thanks Dave - I think it could have waited a couple days!

Why will HSB that are currently accustomed to eating numerous, pelagic GSH and maybe some of the abundant FHM target 3" smb that will inhabit shallow littoral areas?. I would catch a few HSB and see what they are eating, even if you have to sacrifice a few HSB as dinner guests. Then make a decision as to what sizes of smallie to buy. IMO Best eating HSB are around 12"-14".

Bill, as I was mentioning on one of Cecil's posts a few days back, we've done scads of stomach samples on walleyes in lakes and reservoirs and they very, very rarely have a small smallmouth bass in their stomachs.

Dave beat me to it. I thought the numbers were little high. I second the opinion of Dave on your stocking plan TJ.

Here is what I suggested.

Questions:
1. Is stocking non feed trained fish a big negative?

No. Even if feed trained they soon start eating fish etc up to 90% of diet.

2. How does pricing above look? My research indicates it's reasonable.

I agree.

3. Based on existing fish populations and other factors can you provide some guidance on Size and QTY of Fish to stock [or combination thereof?]

Assuming those are the current size and # in the pond (any offspring? ). I would mix the sizes so you have fast growth at multi-year/size classes. You do have 2 other predators in the pond. I would go with mostly $ in mid size ( 100 2-3s , 75 4-6s and 12 6-9s for the current pond ). This does not count the small growout pond. My guess is 20% survival for the 2-3s , 75% for the 4-6s and 95% for the 6-9s. These #s assume very little to no loss from stocking stress , only natural morts. See this on a must IMO.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post22246

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...true#Post169568


http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post26019

Winter survival for yoy (small) fish is a factor as is predation. If it were LMB @ 2in going into a pond with LMB the rate would be between 2 and 10 %.

I would still put some small ones in and use the linked info to raise the rate. IMO I would stick with what I said above and use the blocking net to raise the %. With ice you may want to think about a cage.

Thanks all - there's only a little variation in stocking numbers here...I am honored you all took the time to address my questions.

Considering the fact I DO NOT have LMB present, nor do I ever plan on stocking them unless single sex, I was considering erring on the high side for SMB stocking rather than the low in order to help control the BG population. I'm also leaning towards going all 4-6" fish as survival seems to be less of a concern with the larger sizes.

I'll keep everyone in the loop...if you think I'm missing anything please let me know - and again, thanks very much for the guidance.

Commenting on Dr.Dave's post above, I agree. Smallies and walleye frequent similar habitat zones and numerous instances young smallies do not consistantly show up in walleye stomach analyses. This emphasizes my point of, "Why will HSB target or seek out and eat a type of fish (in this case fingerling SMB) that they do not frequently encounter especially when other fish they are used to eating (targeting) such as GSH are common to abundant? I am not saying HSB will not eat any of 3" SMB but IMO mortality due to HSB predation will likely be quite low. Numerous factors can cause mortaility of newly stocked fish.

The many good points above are a good point of beginning for a stocking discussion.

In designing and managing a stocking program what are things that should be considered but are often not adequately considered or planned for ?

Natural morts including predation and also excluding predation. High variability of results. For very small fish going into cold winters (north country) natural morts excluding predation can be very high. On the other hand if you stock for that and you get low morts you have to many predators of one size. On bigger fish not nearly as high or even low. Predation absent habituation can also be a big factor when small fish are stocked into a fishery with multiple adult species. IMO those carry higher risk in small ponds than in big lakes where most of our data on first year survival come from.

Population dynamics 1 2 and 3 years out. What will spawn and when and success of recruitment to adulthood. Then competition for food. Those 2 inch SMB that may survive winter will probably not spawn for 2 years. The 4-6 inch SMB may not spawn for 2 years and the 6-9 probably in year 2 (maybe not next spring). While spawning for the BG , GShiners, FH, RES , and YP next spring if some not already. Over abundant sunfish , GShiners , YP and HSB could easily suppress SMB spawning.

Risk of unintended consequences. Stocking failure , spawning failure , time considerations upon population dynamics , the fill the pond effect with new ponds (fish attempt to fill the space [carrying capacity] with their own kind ASAP). All of these are risk factors. See the unintended consequences article in the next PB mag issue.

Risk Management. Last but certainly not least the cost of being wrong added to the further cost of not being able to find the right fish to fix the first error or having to start over.

Those are the reasons for the suggestion I made to reduce the potential for poor results and reduce the risk of failure by stocking 3 sizes of SMB and habituating the small ones.


Thoughts - what all do you think about during the pre-stocking period ?

I close my eyes and think of Britain.

When are those fish going to arrive?!

I very much like that thought process ewest. I can only guess but would guess it's the best approach.
However, if $ are a concern I would favor BC's & Dave's thinking.

One thing I didn't plan for at initial stocking was bird predation. I had 3 Kingfishers take out an estimated 1/3 of my RE stocking.

I like ewest's 3 size approach for initial stocking especially for this tj57's situation for smallies where forage species are already well established. In this case BG, RES, and YP could easily get overpopulated if just fingerling smallies are stocked. With 3 sizes there will be 2-3 age classes and a spawn in spring of 2010 IMO will occur if some of the smallies are on the large size of 9"-10". New research has shown that smallies can spawn at 8"-10" long. For more info on this topic see Cody's article in PBoss mag May-Jun 09: "Smallmouth Bass Nesting Habits".

To back up BC's opinion of smb spawnning the year after stocking .. I stocked 2 - 3" smb in spring 07. They pulled off a heavy spawn in 08 after consuming ALOT of FH minnows. Litterly hundreds of yoy smb. My best guess is 10% survived though.

Placed my order today: 250 4-6", 10 9"

RE Eric: 20% survival rate on the 2-3" fish...just couldn't pull the trigger on it - so I realocated that capital towards the 4-6" fish.

I am hopeful to have thousands that size and larger end of next summer from my repro pond and plan on stocking the top 1% into the main pond for another year class.

If you think I really made an error omiting the 2-3"er's I will grab 100 when I'd down there. I still can't throw my arms around why I might need them instead of just going the next largest size.

Just my personal opinion but I think you'll be fine without the 2"-3" fish.