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#18356 08/07/04 05:12 PM
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I recently stocked my new pond this spring by trapping fish from a friends pond that was supposedly only coppernose and red ear, and NO hybrids. I purchased red ear, but did not actually seem them put in the pond. Have recently started to catch and release fish, could not wait any longer. Noticed many fish have coppernose characteristics, but many are a greenish-blue hue with no coppernose coloring, but did not see any red on the ears of the afore mentioned fish. They were all palm size. Is it possible that I have green sunfish. How do you tell the difference. Are these just immature coppers or redears ?????
Any thoughts from any one.

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Bob,
The reason green sunfish are less desirable are because they have a large mouth & will eat many things your preditor fish will eat therefore competing with them.
I don't know the measurements but greenies should have a noticeably larger mouth than regular b/g or red ear.
Hopefully Bill C or some other knowledgeable pond miester will reply.


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Ric, thanks for the reply. Further research linked green perch and goggle-eye. I have caught goggle-eye before in Toledo Bend, they have a large mouth like a bass. So the fish in question is definitely no that one, but it got me to wondering about hybrids regressing to green perch. Wondering is kin to thinking and can be dangerous for the unprepared ! Do Coppernose and Redear male and female have different colorings in the immature and mature state. This fish was about 3-4 inches long.

Thanks-- my mother was a biology teacher and father was a WWII vet, therefore I read English.

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Green sunfish not green perch. All the southern boys confuse the sunfish family with the perch family. Yellow perch and walleye are are best fish and they are in the perch family. Greenies are sunfish and are a curse if you get them in Wisconsin.

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Brian, thanks for the clarification. Since you did not say "WE" southern boys, I have to assume that you are somewhere north of I-20. I do indeed usually say "I'm gone bream fishing or I am gonna jerk some perch " I would be understood and the only question was when is the fish fry. BUT if I say " I am going to try and enhance my freezer with some sunfish" They think I am going down to the coast to try and catch one of those big fish with a long bill " So, the lesson for the day is -- Green sunfish=greenies=bad and Green Perch=good=usally fishing up north.

Thanks- have a great day ! Give a man some fish and he may or may not eat them , but teach a child to fish and they will someday teach their children to fish, that's why I built this pond. Had two 4 year old's just yesterday catch their first fish. I do not know who had more fun them or me. Actually my 24 year old " fisherman" son had one of them and I had the other. I think that they had more fun holding the fish to put it in the bucket than catching the fish. That's why I made a bream pond instead of a catfish pond. I remembered that as a child I did not listen to my Dad about grabing the catfish a certain way !!

It is said that " a boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money !" What then is a pond ? A hole in the ground from which you draw out enjoyment, along with a little extra work to do.

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Bob, I think one of the most import things Pond Boss magazine and this forum does is expose us to an international view of pond/lake management. In so doing, it expands our view of what is possible with our lakes. People that think LMB are the ultimate in game fish find out that they are not. The same is true of walleye fishermen here in the north. I find it fascinating to read the cold conditions our friends in Canada put up with. It humbles even some of our South Dakota winters.

Another thing this international readership does is forces us to use accurate terminology so we can communicate with each other. In order to comment on different species, we need to know exactly what we are talking about. We certainly welcome your ideas, we just want to make sure we know what you are talking about.


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Bob,
I understood perfectly what you were talking about. ;\)
Wondering is kin to thinking and can be dangerous for the unprepared !
Very true!
Now back to your question:
 Quote:
Do Coppernose and Redear male and female have different colorings in the immature and mature state. This fish was about 3-4 inches long .
I can't answer but perhaps someone else can.


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Thanks Norm, it is true about proper identification. I got into the Texas Parks and Wildlife web site http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fish/infish/species/index.phtml... And if you can pull it up you can see some of the confusion for us less knowledgeable pond meisters.As the following examples were listed.
Bluegill-Lepomis macrochipus--ie: Bream,brim,perch,sunfish,sunperch.
Or Green Sunfish--Lepomis cyanellus--ie: goggle-eye,rock bass,branch perch
Or Redear Sunfish--Lepomis microlophus--ie: shellcracker, Georgia Bream,cherry gill, sunny,sun perch. I won't even get started on what the guy across the street calls them. But I am learning slowly. I was reading a thread recently about " bullheads" taking over a guy's pond and the discussions on where and how they came from. Aside from the many varied sworn and true opinions as to the ways " bullheads" enter the pond system. With each writer sincerely believing as to his knowledge of the transplantation routes of " bullheads"---- I got to wondering what the "H..." a " bullhead " is and then I got wondering again if I had them in my pond. I think ( getting dangerous again) I finally figured out that they were a type of catfish , still not sure ... So there you go----do I want them or not and what are they---
" bullheads" that is......Are we having fun yet?

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I was going to make a point, but random thoughts clouded my thinking ( lost in a fog ) Oh ! I remember now --"Greenies" were not listed on that web site

Is there or should there be a collection of fish names catalogued in such a way that it list the official name ( most common and latin genus)-- PLUS PICTURE MALE AND FEMALE-- and then the various names for each fish .... you could have northern,southern,Texan ( special) then by states and vaious other colloquil terms. This sounds like a good research paper for some up and comming Fisheries Biologists --- a whole lot more meaningful and important then the breeding habits of the sand dollar sprint minnow ( I hope I didn't step on somebody's pet project)///// Sometimes the messages acknowledge where a contributor is from and then sometimes not. It would then be helpful to know which language he or she was speaking by crossmatching the name used compared to where that name ( of the fish) is commonly used. Example : Green perch ( northern) are good.

Then us fingerlings ( hey I just noticed-- I've become a lunker) could click on to a special Pond Boss website and down load quicker than a " cherry Gill" suckin up a cricket all kinds of useful names and terms that most everybody else seems to know.

Or has somebody done this already ???

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I think it would be less trouble to just rename that thing that I'm told is the only real perch. Or at least make everyone use the adjective "yellow". Retraining everybody down South, including the TPWD, is about as smart as creating a numbering system called a zip code and teaching everyone in America to use it instead of teaching the postal employees geography. Oh well, as they say; "The times they are achanging".

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Amazon lists a book called "Freshwater Fishes of Texas" for about $10. I've not read it but it might be a place to start. Maybe some other Texans can comment on this book.


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This may be dangerous , but I think that my idea about the Fisheries Biologist thing could be done very easy by Pond Boss.

Step one: Have someone at Pond Boss Forum--( Ask the Boss) set up a separate heading of Fish Classifications--ie: names. This could be northern and southern zones or by states. But I am envisioning kind of a Zonal lines, north to south ,similar to the planting zones that they have for planting shrubs, and vegetables. Common fish per zone , showing a picture of the fish, and proper name ( latin version for those interested) and common local names. Fish names would have a number assigned to them and as each member has time to visit the heading or file, they could identify their fish, if a common name used by them is not listed then it could be submitted for inclusion to the fishes names. It could be further broken down into best habitation for Lakes, small, medium,large ponds. Such as --Black Crappie -one acre pond or bigger

I serious now, stay with me on this.

It would not take some parttime employee at PB or some already Fishery Biologist very long to make this list. Dividing it by Northern and Southern Zones seems best, since fish will grow in certain temperature zones. Example from today's discussion--- Green perch-Wisconsin as far south as ?????? Coppernose-Florida,Miss,La.,Tex ectera as far north as ????? Information could be updated when someone has had success growing a species in an unusual area of the zone. This opens up possibilities for other pond guys to try.

The list from TP&W is a good start for the Southern fish... I am sure there is some Parks and Wildlife from the northern states that has a list of common fish

Step two: Once compiled it could be placed in the permanent files of The Pond Boss Library that could be easily accessed thru a forum heading. Once compiled it would be of great reference as to fish names to use in discussion and to know their best areas of habitation or stockability. Maybe it's just late in the day and I am a little overly excited , but the possiblilties for this type of available knowledge located in one place , to me seems to open up endless possibilities of communication and sharing of knowledge.

I find it hard to believe that this is a new idea or is it. Does this type of collective knowledge exist somewhere, if so where, but it should be here for permanent access and updating. I have seen bits and pieces of this information thru out the forum library, but not in one concise place.

I'm still trying to find out what a " bullhead" is.

Does anybody else think this is a needed item ?

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Hi Bob,

I am one of the guys, whose pond was taken over by Black Bullhead catfish. If you go back to the Texas Parks and Wildlife freshwater fish identification webpage, click on the "Catfish & Bullheads" picture.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fish/infish/species/catfish/

The good thing is, they are not bad to eat once you get the mud taste out.

BTW, my fishing buddy is from Louisiana. You should see the names they come up with. Except for catfish and bass, we hardly ever know if we are talking about the same fish!

There are couple of pictures on pg 2 and 3 of this thread.
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000127;p=3

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Thanks Ed . I got hung up about the bream-perch thing that I did not look any further at the catfish. Thanks for locating the thread about the bullheads. What is the best way to remove the mud flavor or does it depend on the mud.

So is it fairly common that sooner or later you will find these critters in your pond ? Or is it one of those " just depends " things ?

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I think it depends on your circumstances. All the ponds that I know, that are connected to bayous or lakes, have them. Even when it is just occasional overflow. It seems that good predator population helps keep them down, along with seining the tight balls of young in the spring(if you have a small pond). I was hoping that Pond Boss would do an article on them, because to me, they are more of a problem than the Green Sunfish. Well, I am not as upset about them now that I ate some.

As for the flavor, I heard that you can soak the filets in milk for a while(?). Commercial operations keep carp and catfish in clean water tanks for some time before marketing them. There may be other ways...

I hope you never need to learn more about them.

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Thanks again Ed: My pond is filled with runoff and by my well, that's a start. I'll store this bit of wisdom and knowledge for the future, should it come.

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My Dad used to throw all of his catfish into our cattle watering tank for a couple of weeks before eating them. This would get rid of the muddy taste. It would probably work with bullheads also.


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Norm, I don't mean to mean anything disrespectful, but didn't the cattle watering tank have an unusual flavor of it's own I mean cows and water and cows being----cows..... The catfish must be pretty powerful up in South Dakota. I don't know about the bullheads yet though, but if they are that bad I might try borrowing my neighbor cattle farmer's pond for a few weeks. Even if he does look at me kinda funny when I ask him. He has a nervous twitch in his eye anyway. Must be all that hay he has been baleing this summer.

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Norm, I did not mean to hit the send button twice ! Sorry. But I was able to pull up the list of the fish in South Dakota, Man you all (ya'll)have a slew ( bunch) of really neat ( unusaul) looking fish .

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Bob,
If you click on the pen & paper icon straight to the right of your name on one of the posts you can delete it.


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Bob, the kind of tank I'm talking about is a round metal tank. We filled it from a well. Except for a little bit of hay, it was always clean. This was in central Nebraska and I think many farmers/ranchers did this with catfish.


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And a double thanks to Ric and Norm, both bits of knowledge that will be placed in the " to be used" file , for future use. One technical and one practical.

Down here we think of a pond ( a hole in the ground with sloping sides -no dam) out on the range when someone says cow tank. some of us think of a round metal tank as an above ground pool or temporary trout pond.

And now I know how to erase one of my wonderings that escaped into printed expression of thought that after further review should have remained in the wondering domain hidden from human awareness.

Do pond miesters ever have a convention about ponds and fish where they convene to cuss and discuss the varied art of fisheries aquaculture and maybe have various pond supporting companies come and show off their valuable commodities??

In simple terms-- a Pond Convention

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Bob, regarding fishin hole conventions; I attended a seminar hosted by some people last year. They said it would be held every other year and next year ought to be it. It was advertised in PB mag and I don't know where else. Must have been advertised elsewhere because hundreds of pond and lake owners attended. I also remember a pond seminar by the TPWD at the hatchery in Athens a couple of years back. Then there was the attempt last year to talk everyone into dropping in on Lusk for a couple of days and talking him into buying the beer and barbecue. He got narrow minded about it or maybe his wife said he couldn't go out and play.

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All of the green sunfish and the BG X GS hybrids have an orange to orange/yellow border on the caudal, anal and posterior portion of the soft dorsal fin. Purebred bluegill lack any bordered coloration on these fins.

An interesting side note: The so called Georgia Giant that is touted as a "super-fish" in some circles has this orange border in all of the web-site photos, but the picture that claims to depict a 5 lb. specimen lacks the border. Maybe once they reach 5 pounds the edge of the tail falls off! ;\)


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Hey Bob, I used to eat bullhead's as a kid. We soaked them in milk for 2-3 hrs. before frying. It works great. When the milk turns pink you'll know it's time to start the fire.

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Hey Dave: Maybe it was not approached the right way, I mean about dropping in on Bob Lusk and all. Did any one ask his wife if she would let him out to play. She might prefer to have a weekend to herself, or we could take up a collection and send her with " some" expenses paid to Dallas for the weekend-- depending on the number of guys getting together. No offense to the female pond fisherpersons. But it may be more aggreable to his wife if the get together was limited to guys only. ( Why do I think that I am fixing to get into trouble ?) And we could promise to limit it to tea and BBQ, that way it would not offend the fish, and we might remember what Bob had to say if we were closer to sober. And we could ask other note worthy fishknowledgeable speakers to volunteer to speak for a short bit.

With a little extra manpower I can feed 2-3 hundred people BBQ Brisket dinner with my BBQ pit .I do that fairly routinely for school fund raisers. For that matter we could do it as a fund raiser (enough to cover costs, and maybe a scholarship to an in-school fishery biologist in need.

What's the hotel status around Lusk's place.

I actually road with and in Bob Lusk's Shocker boat once, here in East Texas. He seemed like a likable fellow, and with a quart jar of tea and a plate of good BBQ could be encouraged to preach, I mean speak on one or many of his favorite subjects .

Do you think he might read this thread and get the general idea.???

Bruce that is some fish ( Geogia Giant).

Thanks Brad-now that I know what Bullheads are and how to deal with them, I am ready for them --hook,line and fishcooker.

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I see you're a dentist also. Sometimes I'm accused of just practicing dentistry to support my pond habit. \:\)


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Bruce, I never was much for golf, they were hard to shoot and even more difficult to skin. Ponds are safer, at least you can eat what you catch. Of course you have to raise it first. Now there is where you have to be able to justify all that pond stuff to your wife ( if you have one) But then I have found this easier then trying to justify a new driver or putter. Especially since my wife likes to fish ( that is she likes the part about raising the pole out of the water with a fish on the other end) everything else she figures that I enjoy--- Which is probably true. It's all about the challenge, and messing around with a big hole ,out side, wind blowing and in the natural sunlight. Yes , it think it does beat the heck out of those little holes hidden down in some dark cavern called the mouth. So tommorow, I will work alittle for the bank, some for the IRS, some for the collged tuition board, a bit for the staff, some for supplies, and about the last half hour I dedicate to the pond. Makes the end of the day worth waiting for.It also beats the heck out of raising cattle to. My fish come to the bank when I whistle them for feeding time. This is better therapy then any liquid sedative at the end of a stressful day-- would you agree ???

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Bob, this is difficult for me to say....but when I'm around many of our colleagues the coversation quickly turns to bond strengths, emergence profiles and strep mutans. I struggle valiantly to redirect the topic but it can be an exercise in futility. Sounds like there's one other sane voice out there in the dental world. I'm passionate about my pond and raising huge bluegills and striped bass hybrids. My pond motto used to be "Trial by error, and error, and error, and error...... Lucily, in the last few years I've found good sources of information such as this forum. My wife is like yours in that she enjoys fishing when the action is good. This beats the heck out of not liking it at all! When she met me she realized what she was getting into. My two daughters are similar. They are 11 and 9 years old and as long as they have a spinning reel in their hand they don't have room for a credit card. \:\) If you need any information on huge bluegill or wipers let me know.


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Bruce, I am also the proud dad of two fisher children. Several years ago,fishing the saltwater bay on the east side of Louisiana, I captured on film the smiles on both of them as the fought redfish at the same time at the front of the boat. What a moment. With both in college now, we shared a little time down at the pond this summer. Just as much fun to watch my daughter out fish her older brother. He on the other hand was not jealous, but acknowledged her fishing prowess. Equally joyfull.

I started this thread asking about coppernose bream, because that is what I put in my pond, along with redears. College books and gas have set me back on getting feeders for my 3 pond collection, but then that forces me to feed daily by hand, which is probably better therapy.

I looked up that " Giant Bream" you mentioned earier. No offense, but that is an ugly fish. Is that what you are trying to raise in your pond. If so, then how big have you got those suckers. And where did you get them.

And can you give me a heads up on " wipers"????
WE don't find much need for regular wipers down here in Texas during July and August, so if you need to borrow some we could Fed-Ex you some.

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That fish on the internet is a redear sunfish that's been incorrectly represented as a hybrid developed by some guy in Georgia who's trying to make a quick buck. I'm raising purebred bluegills only. The ones we have here in Nebraska are native to the area and aren't quite the same as the coppernose that are available down south. I've raised bluegills to 910 g. and 305 mm. I've used some innovative techniques to raise them to that size.
Wipers are striped bass hybrids. I couldn't tell if you were pulling my leg or not, but I've got them to 8 kg in my small pond. Like my bluegill they are very receptive to pelleted feed.


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Bob Shelton, first of all, i loved your comment about seeing the kids catch fish. i also love to see kids or whoever gain pleasure from catching fish from my pond. is great. i feel the same way; is a wonderful feeling to catch fish, but to see others enjoy the wonders of catching a fish is great.

As far as fishery biologist simplification: i had the wonderful opportunity to meet the...Bob Lusk... on his "Pond Boss World (country) Tour", and trust me...ain't nothin' simple about fisheries biologist "stuff"!!! I am impressed on how well Pond Boss Magazine is able to provide info to small pondmeisters like myself, as well as the "big boys"!!! i have a lot to learn!!! mark

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Bruce-- No leg pulling--- I did not know that striped bass hybrids were called " wipers". That goes back to an earlier suggestions for a section here on the PB forum to have the names of fish in one section so that less knowledgeable person's such as myself can look up a name and understand which fish is being discussed in any particular thread. That list does not have to be every fish in the USA, but atleast the common pond and small lake fish that are discussed here. And may my redears grow up to be big boys like that picture.

Mark-- Yes it is all about the smiles. I think the best ones are the smiles that grace a child's face when he/she first lifts that fish out of the water. The ones made for the picture are usually nice , but not the same. Catching site of the afore mentioned (just out of the water) smiles is the payment for all the blood, sweat, and stubbed toes in creating the pond in the first place.

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For any one who had the guts and grits to read this whole thread, here is the maybe some dessert.

Neat place to visit with mucho information.
No www stuff -- just -- wildlife.tamu.edu --- then click on the aquaculture section

thanks to the contributors

Bob

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Bruce, do you mind telling us what some of the "innovative techniques" you've used to raise bluegills as big as you have?


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Bruce,
I'm in the market for all the information you can provide for raising huge blue gill and especially for "wipers" as you call them.

In fact the name "wiper" was strange to me - yes -sunshine bass, palmetto bass and as I prefer, hybrid striper.

I am an avid striped bass flyfisherman and have recently stocked hybrid striper in our two acre E. Texas pond. I noticed on your website video, the fish caught was on a fly. What are your favorite fly patterns for hybrid stripers?

Thanks for your interesting posts,
George Glazener

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Bruce and Bob,

The way you two dentists talk about seeing the smiles on kids faces makes me wonder if you are sizing up future clients ;\) . Actually, giving the neighborhood kids a place to wet a worm is one of the reasons why I have built a couple of ponds at my place.

Russ

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George, for purposes of this forum, I wonder if we should standardize the name "hybrid striped bass (HSB)". That way everyone would know what we are talking about. Does anyone have any thoughts about this?


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I believe there should be be some type of standardization. Mike Freeze, manager/partner of Keo Farms in Lonoak, Arkansas calls them "hybrid striped bass", and he largest producer of hybrid striped bass fry and fingerlings in the world.

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Actually, Mike Freeze calls 'em HAH-brids. \:\)

Norm and George--I'd love to talk about big bluegills and striped bass hybrids but it will have to wait until tomorrow due to the fact I'm on my way to fish for them at this exact moment. You know...Wednesday, dentists' day off. Stay tuned...


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Sound like the proper pronunciation to me - being from a neighboring state I guess I don't notice the difference.... ;>)

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BruceC. I have asked the PBoss editor (B.Lusk) to contact you for an indepth article about your methods for raising these fish. Save some of the details for the magazine article. In the mean time, get us some good pictures of your dandy fish while the weather is still decent.


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Russ--- No offense taken, but if I do my job right and the kids take my advice, then the most they will see me is twice a year for a cleaning and a new toothbrush. And they will never contribute very much to my car or pond. And as for your dentist's taste in car's , he should have built a pond , it won't take up space in the garage and you get all excited when it rains.

Norm-- as per your suggestion about standardized names....I don't think that would ever happen given the diversity of pond owners from here to there.... That's why I made a plug earlier in this thread for a spot on the forum that would be a permanent site to list the official name and description of a fish,including a nice picture,( and pictures of the fish at differnt life stages would be the icing on the cake-because it was that lack of knowledge that started this thread) and a list of it's common names. And that such list would and could be amended as each pond member would visit the site to learn what the other pond guy is talking about..... It could be down in the "Help" section... Heading " Fish Names and Descriptions". Also a list of Zones probably based on temperature extremes that these fish seem to prefer... It would be much like the seed catalog zones that tell you when to plant your seeds and if the seed would even grow in your Zone...

I don't think an article in Pond Boss would be the best, because it could not be added to as pond miesters test and fail or succed at growing a new breed of fish in their special Zone.

But like all pondmiesters---- " First you got to have a dream, then go dig a hole,and the size of the hole only depends on your dream."

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Bob,
You sound a lot like my dentist, if things go right and I listen to her and her hygenist, I only have to sit in her chair twice a year. I also have some work that she needs to fix from my military days. But I do have to see her everyday, since I married my dentist! \:D Kids tend to not mind going to see a 4'11" dentist who still looks like a kid herself.

As a thread related issue, I suggest that we all start pulling together our photos of our fish, from fatheads to our big flatheads and blue cats (that's for you, big_pond) so we could start our own info page. I would think that would be easier than researching copyrights to taking other pictures we found elsewhere. Just a thought.


Shawn

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Bill Cody, George, and Norm,

My method of raising big bluegill has evolved over the last six years and is constantly being modified as I learn from research and from discussions with other educated fisherman such as yourselves. It involves a combination of natural selection and induced selection, or culling, to favor delayed maturation of male bluegill. I also advocate "compensatory feeding" to speed growth rates.

There are two important prerequisites for such a program.

1. It is necessary to have at least two other holding ponds which are easily drained or seined.

2. It is necessary to be a little off your rocker to spend this kind of time researching and raising a fish that is next to impossible to catch.

Bill, I'm extremely flattered that you would like to see a detailed explanation of methodology and if Pond Boss is interested I could go into extensive detail. I already have photos of my 11 year old daughter with a two-pounder that is quite impressive. Off all bluegill sampled through angling or other methods this year the average weight was just under one pound. My daughter nearly drove me up a wall because I said she wasn't fishing right. Every cast she'd drag her bait right into the rooted vegetation along the edge of the pond. Time and time again I'd have to pull the giant mess of weeds off of her hook. Fittingly, though, she ended up catching the biggest bluegill I've ever seen! It made it worth all the trouble.


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...by the way, I'm glad that the Pond Boss forum overseer has granted me lunker status. My wife was looking over my shoulder the other night as I made a post and with great consternation stated, "All your friends are lunkers and I married a fingerling?!?!" \:\(


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nice laugh before bed , ty \:D


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Bruce,

If your daughter is hauling in two pound bluegill, I'd like to see an article showcasing your achievements. I think a picture of your daughter holding a prize trophy like that stands a good chance of being POND BOSS cover material.

Russ

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