Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Selecting a site starting the dream

It has been fascinating reading for a year or so and now it is my turn to jump in the pond fray. Like so many before me the questions seem to be the same and everyone is so helpful, if no one minds I will throw out a couple of mine.

We are purchasing a small 13.11 acre plot in Green County Wisconsin. My dream is to build a pond for swimming and fishing. I have a topo map with 10 foot drops (tried to include it but was unable maybe next time if I can figure how. The Watershed is strong but much of it seems to drain just outside my property. I did ask the potential neighbors if I could buy a section of their property and while they were open to the idea they would not commit. I am getting soil samples from Green County Land and Soil. Looking at the proposed site:

1. I was hoping to build a 2-3 acre but am concerned about
water supply/watershed. Using a topo map or anything else,
how do calculate pond size?
2. Since I am new to all of this, is it easier to build a
smaller pond say 1 acre and then expand later?
3. Can anyone recommend a dirt person in Green County,
Wisconsin? I did get a list from the County but no one they
recommended.

Thanks for the inputs. I can not take possession of tha land until the corn is harvested in November so I have all winter to read and plan.

Hello, Kurt, and welcome to the Forum!


Legitimate concern - pond size supportable by runoff depends on factors including watershed size, rainfall, evaporation loss, leakage, and watershed cover type (think forest vs. grassland vs. parking lot).
a. See the local NRCS office. If you're lucky they have the time and experience to go over the topo map with you and figure this out.
b. Post that topo map and provide other info as available. We have some excellent topo readers here who can help figure out pond size.
c. Hire a pond consultant.


This is perfectly feasible and has been done more than once. You would have to move more dirt (and spend more) for an expandable 1 acre pond than for a fixed one acre pond, if you want to raise the dam later and increase it's size. There may be other routes to do this, but that's the way I'm familiar with via Bob Lusk's stories in "Perfect Pond ... Want One?" (Buy a copy - best $35 you'll spend on your new pond!)


Open for Cheesehead Pondmeisters ...


I recommend getting ground cover (grasses) planted ASAP after corn harvest, to cut erosion on you new land.

Could anyone explain how to attach a PDF file and I will include the topo map?

I think your best bet with a pdf is to link to where it is stored on-line.

This is how Dwight Bremer does it for the bi-weekly pond update (example).

I hope this makes it through. We are looking at building a 2-3 acre pond but may start smaller. Watershed is strong but just runs off the property lines.


What do you all think? Is this possible?

thanks
kurt

I need a little help understanding the info. According to the paperwork, the soil is:

SoC2 Sogn silt loam 2 to 12 percent slope, moderately eroded
22% sand 55% silt 18-23-27 % clay

DsB Downs silt loam, heavy substratum 2 to 6 percent slopes
7% sand 70 % silt 20-24-27& clay.



My guess is that it is not great for retaining water so something will need to be used to line the pond, clay, bentonite etc...

What do you all think?

kurt

The clay content is fine. It is above the minimum that one would seek for water retention. I don't see a deal breaker on your soils....yet. Mike Otto would take one look and letcha know if the silt content will trump your clay performance. 22% sand is another question....?

Am I understanding this correctly? The "D" (light color) soil is favorable while the "B" (dark color) may not be?




Map unit symbol Map unit name Rating Acres in AOI Percent of AOI
DsB Downs silt loam, heavy substratum, 2 to 6 percent slopes B 0.7 5.0%
DuC2 Dunbarton silt loam, 6 to 12 percent slopes, moderately eroded D 2.7 19.5%
DuD2 Dunbarton silt loam, 12 to 20 percent slopes, moderately eroded D 0.1 0.6%
DwB2 Durand silt loam, 2 to 6 percent slopes, moderately eroded B 2.0 14.3%
SoC2 Sogn silt loam, 2 to 12 percent slopes, moderately eroded B 7.1 51.1%
SoE2 Sogn silt loam, 12 to 30 percent slopes, moderately eroded B 1.3 9.4%



Thanks for any input. I just ordered the "Perfect Pond" because I want one.

D is best. It will have a higher runoff rate then B.

Most of my property is D and C so it doesn't take much to get the water flowing.

Here is the read out from Green County on the soil from the wells dug in the area.

Edmund soil from 0"-7" is a silt loam.... from 7"-16" it is a silty clay.... from 16"-60" it is partly shattered dolomite bedrock

Sogn soil from 0"-9" is a silt loam.... from 9"-14" it is disintegrated dolomite....from 14"-60" it is platy dolomite

Downs soil from 0"-18" is a silt loam.... from 18"-41" is a silty clay loam....from 41"-49" is a silt loam....from 49"-60" is a massive silt loam (wet)

None of this means much to me. I work with kids all day at the local YMCA so any help is again appreciated. I know this may be the 64 dollar question but is any of this stuff I have posted a deal breaker for the pond?

I would like to build a dam and would bring clay if needed
thanks everyone

Ask the people who gave you the report.
IS THIS MTERIAL GOOD FOR A POND??

Look around at the other ponds in the area see how well they hold water, that is also a indicator of what yours will do.

Call the equipment dealers and find out who pays their bills, that will help with the dirt guy-- match it up with the county list.

I received Bob's book yesterday and have for the most part have finished it. The book scared me a little concerning how much must be done just in preparation. On the other hand, the book gave me hope that it can be done so the dream is still alive.

We will close on the land next month and Monday I meet with a builder/excavator.

thanks for all inputs and it will be fun to see what happens.

It's much easier and cheaper to do everyting right BEFORE the water fills the hole than to fix problems later!

Starting the dream update...

First of all I am very grateful for this site as it has provide so much information, insight and guidance. Over the past 4 months or so since I first started looking at Pond Boss, I have learned more than I could have imagined to ask as I red and re-red answers to my questions and answers to many other questions. I am sure countless people have said this but let me add to the list, thank you to all the moderators and other participants who have provided the answers and sometimes timely questions. I would mention Bob, Mike, Dave but would be afraid that I have left out many key people. Have I kissed up enough?

My wife is also very pleased with the site not that she has ever been on it or read anything but the more I communicate here on Pond Boss the less she has to hear me telling her.

I met Bruce Walholtz of Cedarcreek Consulting at the land site last Monday. He is fantastic and on board for helping put everything together. It was raining and muddy so we did not walk the entire plot. Where I thought the pond would go before seeing the land without the corn crop is not nearly the best place, in fact it not even an option with the way the land rolls. As we walked up and over a small ridge, there sat ‘the spot’ or as Bob writes inthe book "'Ahaa...there it is. Two hills flaring back to a perfectly sloping meadon with no trees."' There is was in the middle of the field lay a nice basin or depression in the land, situated between the ridge we just crossed and another ridge located about 200 feet across. There two ridges created a nice and large basin with one side needing the dam and the other slowly running uphill to the top of the land. The drop from top of ridges to bottom of basin is between 15-20 feet. I am sure my description does not make sense but the jist is that we were both surprised, pleasantly, to see such a wonderful and borderline perfect spot.

Next week we start putting together a step list with a time table. This is really exciting and fun.

I apologize for no pictures too rainy (more I am too stupid to figure out how to use the camera) but next entry I will post some.

Thanks again for reading and listening so to speak.

I would say your dream is awake and coming to fruition. It is a blessing of sorts to have the natural topography that defines a good pond zone, even before excavation. It's luck to have it and not even know it. This is the karma part of your dream; it bodes well.

Are there any water wells within a half mile or so? The Illinois DNR will have well drilling records that will detail the soil types encountered all the way down. If the wells are nearby (within 1000 feet or so), it will help a little with a snapshot of what might be underfoot at your crib.

Just a quick update on the project and photo. We went out last Monday to shot some elevations and dig some test holes. The digging proved to be more disappointing than expected. We knew there was limestone from the survey and well info but the extent of the rock was far more than expected or desired. The plot is only 13 acres so there is not alot of room. The rock can be used to build an extension to the road and for the driveway and to rip rap but with so much rock there may be very little clay.


As the saying 'you can build a pond just about anywhere as long as you have enough m money". I know there are options but they start to move the cost arrow upwards.

Excavator is working up a design and cut and fill print out.

Suggest once you get the facts call Mike Otto. You need an expert in pond design with wide knowledge not just a dirt guy.

Just a quick obituary for my pond dream.

I received a letter from County Zoning and then spoke with Adam Wiegel. The pond itself has been approved since we are not selling any of the topsoil or rock. It is not considered a mining operation. Originally the pond was denied.

Unfortunately for the pond, due to an ordinance that was initiated 2006 which only allows a private drive to service 6 lots and the private drive now serves 6, (6th was approved just two weeks ago) my approval to build would be 7th and therefore no building over 100 sq feet will be allowed to be built until the road is taken over by township or re-built by the home owners to township or county specs. Since I am the last owner looking to build (there are other plots but they are being used still for farming and not subject to the ordinance), I am the only one being left out. The land is nice and everything but a large part of owning it was the opportunity to build a house in a number of years.

There is a slim chance. Adam stated that I need to re-visit the driveway with Harvey Mandel, Township Chairman. If Township will approve a driveway permit to no approved building than I can go back to County Zoning and maybe work on something there. I have extreme doubts that any of that would happen. I have a feeling that it is agencies just bouncing me around.

Again, at this point the project has grounded to a halt. Unless better news is forthcoming, I am at a standstill. I could still build the pond with no quarantee that I would ever be able to build a pole barn or house. I will see what Harvey says as soon as I can call him.

I am sure that I should have asked this specific question at some point but I placed confidence in the realtor to check out these things. The one or main condition of purchase was being able to build a house at some point in time. Yes, had I placed my request to zoning in 2 weeks earlier then it would have been approved and the other land owner would have been frozen out which still does not seem fair.

very frustrating.

That's not good news. Here's hoping that you get approved for a house without any further setbacks.

Is there a Zoning Board of Appeals? Fish Wife has about 30 years of experience with Zoning Boards and Planning Commissions, and people are always appealing lot splits, spaghetti ranches, and flag lots that don't meet code. Sometimes they are approved anyway.

I think I would try again. You represent property tax dollars.

The Realtor may be able to help if you explain the situation to him regarding little things like fraudulent misrepresentation. I'm betting he understands zoning laws and your desire to build something other than a pond. Realtors generally know the members of the zoning board.

A couple of things come to mind, all protective, were your concerns in the contract? house, pond, the 7th owner roadway house clause? Have you consulted a local real estate attorney? Has the deal closed? Regarding the Realtor, was he/she aware or should have been aware of the restrictions? 6 lots sounds like a subdivision and a subdivider, what were their claims, advertisements, brochures? What were the other 6 buyers understandings?
I mention all of this because it looks like a legal situation, which suggests legal help, asap.

Thanks for the inputs. I have written County Zoning, Chairman of the Jefferson Township and my neighbors to see what avenues of pursuit I have before me.

I have spoken with my realtor but I think or at least it feels that eveyone from the realtor side is just covering themselves as no one is openly stating that they know or knew about this ordinance that when into affect in 2006. I was or am hoping to avoid a legal issue or fight.

The last two weeks have been tough with all bad news from the heavy amounts of rock in the land to the zoning issues. I am hoping that this week things will turn back the other way.

Being pond-delirious, I have already built 5 PVC fish attractor trees. My wife is not happy having these trees in the garage and no pond in which to place them. She has put a moratorium on building any more trees. What will I do all winter long?????

Again, thanks for all the input.

Since you can't build trees, you could build cribs, cages, porcupine fish attractors, etc.

Sorry to hear about your trial and tribulations Kurt. Battling a local zoning/building department is no fun (been there, done that). Here's what I suggest you do with your winter.

1. If your county has all of the relevant zoning ordinances on line then down load and read them over and over. If not go to the office and obtain a copy of them. Determine exactly what the ordinance says and look for any exemption and/or appeals process.

2. If you can, get statements from your neighbors stating that they have no objection to this additional driveway.

3. Attempt to find out if your county has granted any variance to this regulation in the past and what the circumstances for the exemption was (our county has the minutes on line, I read all of the minutes of county meetings and found evidence that they had granted several variances to the issue that arose at my property).

4. Find legal council that specializes in this area of the law and pay for a consultation. This does not mean that you are going to litigate, it just will provide you with additional information.

Just a few rambling thoughts.