Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Finally, the Fish Kill Took Place!

The fish kill took place on my lake when I was out of town at the Lake/Stream Leaders Institute at Kellog Biological Station on beautiful, pristine Gull Lake. It did not take place as we expected and I got frantic phone calls from Girlfriend LakeChair while it was happening.
It was supposed to be on Tues., but because rain was in the forecast (a permit requirement)it was postponed until Thursday, so fate spared me viewing the fish die in large numbers. Made me happy.
I am told it was a circus like atmosphere with people all out on their decks watching, and the access site crawling with spectators. Boys of Summer did not do the procedure, they hired another company to do it, same guys who did the fish survey, and part of the deal was for them to remove the dead fish to a dumpster brought on site - something they normally do not do.
With all those people watching, imagine, they could not get the motor to start, all suited up in protective gear, long shirts, long pants, poor guy. They exchanged motors with another boat. They started applying the chemical in front of my place first. People expected to see dead fish start coming up immediately, which did not happen. It took some time: the first fish to come up were all the small minnows and fry. The next fish to come up were larger than expected populations of crappie, and the bluegill. There were very few small LM Bass, and we did a great job harvesting the bigger ones as there were not too many - although some people tried to revive the larger ones, but failed.
Believe it or not, my husband took the day off work to cover for me since I was out of town, how nice. The applicator told him he guaranteed that nothing would survive in the lake with the amount of rotenone (sp) used. The water temp was 74, and we know it works best at cooler temps thanks to Cecil and the information he sent us. The guys spent the night. By the next morning the fish were coming up by the thousands, the Gizzard Shad, big ones. They picked up about 1,000 lbs. of fish and left by 7:00 p.m. Friday. When everyone woke up on Saturday our lake was a sea of dead fish, majority being Gizzard Shad, and there were some suckers, a few bullheads, some carp, but 90% G.S. A stinking mess! Girlfriend LakeChair had gone to Flint to care for her mom, just out of the hospital. She got a call from her frantic husband Harvey at midnight Friday saying all the fish were coming to the surface, what to do? Harvey sprung into action the next morning by 7:00 calling board members and residents saying the dumpster was being hauled away within an hour, please come and help. This is the best part: residents rallied together and got out there and bagged up the fish, at least 1,000 lbs, mostly G.Shad and some larger carp. They kept asking where I was. Although we have been writing in the newsletter about the GShad for months, we found we had many people who thought we were doing the wrong thing, until they saw how many G.Shad there were, they were all shocked and now on board with the total fish kill. The Shad had taken over the lake. The numbers of fish matched what the fish survey revealed very closely, with the exception of the crappie.
I arrived home at 8:00 pm Sat. evening, and there were still dead fish floating about into the shore, so I made several trips around my end of the lake and picked them up, mostly GS and some suckers or small carp, not sure. Same thing on Sunday morning. Residents got about another 500 lbs. of fish out,(thank goodness it was windy and not hot.) These fish are bagged up and stinking at the access site and GF Lakechair is trying to get a special pick up this a.m. to get them out of here. It is ripe.
Last night under the willow tree with a spotlight 7 large carp were spotted in the lake, looking like they were not struggling in anyway. Ken Grand (we would be lost without him) speared one large one, and this will be reported to the applicators, they may have to come back while the permits are still good, unless they floated up overnight. I am so glad I missed this process and instead had one of the most fun/interesting events of my life at the Lake Leader Institute, intensive 3 days of education and field work in an awful lake at a bird sanctuary, and a cold water stream collecting. We learned how to assess the plants, bugs, water chemistry on both the lake and the stream. The lake made mine look pristine.

Find out how they did the application. Deep water with O2 sometimes acts as a safe haven. If there are carp left then there are others as well (catfish/bullheads, and other poor water quality survivors) but should have taken care of the GShad. They should have taken steps to avoid that. If you think you (the subdivision group) saw most of the dead fish you should have seen the bottom - a lot end up there. Glad for the GShad report and the confirmation of the problem. Any pics of the fish to share ?

EWest:
Just ran into GF out there. She said they said this a.m. that the chemical should stay active for 7 days in this water. If they don't wash up by then, they will have to come back. I picked up about 5, I think they are 10" carp, not suckers, and more G. Shad.
People took photos, I can't do computer, will bring them to the conference.
Another great guy who is helping us is John Dettmers Phd, Sr. Fishery Biologist of G. Lake Firshery Commission, and I think he hit it right back in the spring. He surmised that fish would take refuge in strong springs, drains. Esp. if oxygen is coming in. But other people say springs don't usually supply oxygen (?). This is what I think: strong, heavy, record spring rains, water table is very high, our lake maintains its level on its own (theories spoken: top of the aquifer, artesian springs, etc.) and the water coming in from the springs is stronger than usual.
This is cool: one homework assignment is to send a report on the one website that has helped you the most. This info will be compiled and used by many experts in the future in Michigan, these people are from Michigan State and other places. OF COURSE, MINE WILL BE A DETAILED REPORT ABOUT POND BOSS FORUM!

Ground water is uaually quite low on Oxygen, often high in Nitrogen (IIRC). Neither of these conditions is good for fish.

As much time and effort that you are putting into this project, if there are any doubts about any of the unwanted fish making it thru the application, I'd hit it again to make sure everyone is dead.

Fav Guy BOS said lots of fish would go to the bottom as well, increasing the phos. for a while. Why do they sink to the bottom?
We are 8-9ft. total depth. Would the springs dilute the chemical where they are possibly hanging out to avoid it?

2cat, your fish kill sounds amazingly similar to mine. With mine it was obvious that the fish did not sink to the bottom but rather got stuck there while floundering for oxygen. Often while I was cleaning up the dead fish over the next three days, I would witness one that had just broken free from the bottom and came floating towards the surface at a pretty fast pace. Their bodies would be half covered in muck. Particularly the large mouth bass took longer to come up because their mouths held more debris from the bottom. I also only found one grass carp and one catfish so I assume there are more that survived the "kill". And I estimate that by weight my pond (1 acre) was easily 90% shad. My friend called them "Buck" Shad (North Carolina term?) but I'm not sure what they were other than a nuisance that had consumed my pond. Had no idea they were there until the fish kill; only knew "something" wasn't right. Good luck with your restock!

Hi Matt:
That was the unintended good consequence of the residents having to pick a lot up. Because you never see those shad other than one or two washing up dead after lake treatments, you don't know they are there, they don't bite on hooks, etc. So it worked out well in the end.
Our lake doesn't have much muck, it is sandy with about 3-4" of sediment in the deeper parts of the basin, and there is zero vegetation in the lake. We basically have a dead lake right now.
Have to wait for the zooplankton to rebound before restocking, and we have to put minnows in a cage to see if they survive. Then we have to fight to get a balanced fishery, not just LM Bass. Bottom line, We Got er Done, will see if they have to come back. I had a dream last night that the carp washed up dead.

We had 3 large carp come up dead today, 4 days after the chemical was applied.

2Catwoman,

Not sure if I said cold water is the best time to rotenone fish? I believe it was that it takes longer to detoxify in cold water.

Glad you finally had your fish kill. Hopefully it was 100 percent but I've see lots of them in larger bodies of water where there were always a few survivors -- especially carp. Not sure how they do it but...

Yes Cecil:
You gave the best information, and also your heads up about the aquaculture conference got us the contact of J. Dettmers who is a great help too. You are the best. I saw a fish jump out of the water across the lake tonight at 7:00.

I picked up one dead 12" sucker this a.m., see no other sign of life, will go out with spotlights at night to look for carp.

You gotta post some pics! Where are the pics???

Sorry guys, no pics. I wasn't here and I am not smart enough to do the photos anyway. I got one more dead g. shad, think he was in the storm drain, there is a terrible smell coming out of it. Wonder how long it will take for the zooplankton to rebound. It is kind of like a dead lake, the Herons aren't around now, etc. I am glad the residents had to get out there and see those g.shad and how they had taken over. I have to believe with the amount of dead g.shad (more suckers than we imagined too) they were just eating all the zooplankton. How these fish all survived in here is a mystery to me, no vegetation, no habitat. GF Lakechair is worried that all the carp did not die.

Is there a fair sized stream feeding the lake? With all the suckers you speak of, there must be...

No CJ:
It is only storm drains and strong springs that feed this lake. Unlike some of the others, our lake stands alone, does not flow in or out of any of the other 5 lakes. But think of this: the lake existed prior to the development of the homes which were built in the mid to late 70's. Our lakes were gravel pits, but are shallow. There has been zero fishery management ever to our knowledge. In addition, we outflow (to control the water level) through an engineered system under a street and under a yard to what is called the Ferry Drain. The Ferry Drain is an old agricultural drain (Ferry Seed Co.) coming down north, where it was all farm land prior to development. It flows east to the Clinton River, which flows to Lake St. Clair. There are other creeks etc. that flow into the Ferry Drain north of us.
We know that our flap valve was left in the open position (not sure if on purpose to stop complaints to the city of the lake not draining, or just by accident)for at least 3 years before the lake went bad in 2004. We documented that and took photos. I have seen the carp in the drain which is called the creek by residents. So who knows where all these junk fish came from?
Another battle yet to be fought is to slow down the flow of the creek in heavy rains, as it appears that we cannot drain off in heavy rain events until the creek level subsides, with all the development north more and more storm water has been put into the system. Nothing is easy here, but it is worth the fight.

Seems like the suckers are coming in from some other BOW. Perhaps they are migrating up the "Ferry Drain". If that is the case, I would bet fish will migrate up the "Ferry Drain" again and repopulate the lake now that the fish kill has been done. It may be a moot point trying to control the exact species that are going to be in your lake, with their being a way for "trash" fish to get back into the lake on their own again???

I think you are right, and I think the carp came from the same drain.

If it makes you feel any better the 80 fish I harvested from your lake in the spring are complete pigs. They are 100% feed trained (bass too) and have grown in leaps in bounds!! I am guessing their is a couple bluegill approaching the 1# mark. Thanks again, I thought it may make you feel a little bit better about the fish kill.

If there are any rough fish left in the lake it's imperative to get predator fish in there ASAP before the rough fish spawn. Spawning time for carp and gizzard shad is next spring. And by all means there should be no way for more fish to enter the lake.

Thank you guys!
As you know the fish kill was not my call, I just did the research and agreed to go along to get along as I am viewed as the trouble maker around here. That is ok with me, I like it! They may get the company back to do another fish kill for the carp they are seeing over at GFLakeChairs at night. I have not seen a sign of any live fish yet. We had heavy rains and some dead ones came out of the drains, rotting ones, really gross. Like falling apart gross, and reeking. Buried those quickly.

When the flap valve opens to drain out, maybe fish are coming in through there? If carp survived, would that be all that bad, I can't imagine the GS did, we will keep looking. So glad we harvested lots of LM & Bluegill, thank you bigbrando, you did make me feel better. Another guy came for several days and also got lots of bluegill out. Will keep looking and advise GFLakeChair of your posts.

Definately, if the flap opens for the water to get out, carp can get in by swimming upstream. You'll probably not find any live Gizzards, they will die with lower doses of Rotenone than common carp. If she's still seeing carp, then I would have them come out and hit it again. If you can get the carp population down, even tho they're not 100% eliminated, if you can get a good predator base in before the spawn next Spring, you may be able to keep them in check for a longer period of time.

If you can find someone that knows how to fish for carp, and is willing to do so this year, the more you can get out before they spawn next Spring, the better.

Esshup,

Do you think they can put a screen over the flap too? I guess it won't keep small ones out but at least it would keep the adults out. Only downside is it could block debris and would have to be watched.

I would also be concerned with gizzard shad making their way back in. I'm sure some went downstream.

I think any sort of screen that is small enough to catch fish will catch debris at the wrong time (high water events). Unless there was some way to make the water fall a ways, I don't know if they could keep the trash fish out of the BOW. I haven't seen evidence of carp or Gizzards jumping up a waterfall like Salmon.

True. I do know from experience small bluegills will swim up a 6 inch pipe that is over 200 feet long against a fairly decent flow of somewhat less than 45 gpm. Ever since then I have pulled up my flexible pipe inflow quite a bit if in use to keep fish from swimming up it. I don't like fish species where I don't want them. I go to too much trouble to prevent that.

I think that is where Bob Lusk is spot on. Many of the magically appearing fish aren't heron additions but simply fish using skinny waters to make a new pond their home...

They are also great escape artists in a fish cage. If there is an opening they will find it. I also watched two fish plop themselves over the edge of acage that had no cover. That doesn't sound like a big deal but the edge of the cage was a few inches above the water level and they were hybrid bluegill. It was like watching a carefully planned jailbreak.

Thank you guys!
There is no way they will put any screening in, they just won't do it. We are working with the city on drain cleaning, etc., but that outflow flap valve has a lip on it, but think, even if a stick gets caught on it, it will stay somewhat open. It looks like we will most likely have another fish kill to get all the carp in Sept. Permits will have to be extended, and it is difficult as if any rain in the forcast has to be postponed, the outflow has to be shut off for a week after applying the rotenone too, it is tricky. We have minnows in cages now to see if they live for 48 hours. No more fish coming up.

I have. At a nearby lake the city built a series of wetlands to help clean the water before it entered the lake. The wetlands were supposed to be fish free, so they put a 2' drop from the wetlands to the lake. They aren't fish free. There are so many carp in them vegetation can't grow.

We seined one of the wetlands for a class I was in. One year after the wetlands were built the wetland closest to the lake contained common carp, bluegill, green sunfish, emerald shiner, largemouth bass, yellow perch, and yellow bullhead (listed in order from most abundant to least abundant). People may have moved some, but that is a lot of species to move. All of the fish seined were under 8" long, with most under 4", which were probably born in the wetland. A few adult carp were also observed, but not captured in the bag seine.

In the two wetlands further back from the lake (the three wetlands were in series with waterfalls between 1 and 2 feet in between) we found mostly carp with very few bluegills and GSF.

As part of the lab report I found a journal article on a study of green sunfish trying to move up a culvert. A grid of squares with bags to catch the sunfish was placed around a culvert that the GSF were trying to jump into. The culvert was something like 1.5' above the pool/stream the GSF were in. Many fish were caught in the bags nearest to the culvert. One GSF ended up in one of the bags about 3' above the water. Amazing.

The point is a waterfall would need to be taller than most people would think to prevent fish migration. If it were my pond, 5' would be where I would start.

Thank you for that very interesting information. I hope if we do another fish kill they do it soon. We want that zooplankton population to rebound - poor lake, no vegetation, no fish, no birds now, just ducks. However, Fav Guy BOS treated last Friday (hit it hard,it was bad after the fish kill) and then we had 3-1/2" of rain over the weekend, washed in any dead fish that were decomposing in the storm drains, and I am quite surprised that the lake looks as good as it does today, really surprised. Maybe our banning Phosphours and the city vac truck and streetsweeper (he was here today) is going to make a difference? A very interesting science experiment in my own back yard.

PS: My husband is out on Lake St. Clair right now Muskie Fishing, hope they catch a couple, I think they have to be 50" to keep, although I don't know why anyone would want to keep them.

Very exciting:
Secchi Disk reading was 3'6" tonight. That is a 10" gain in water clarity over the average 2'8" for July and Aug. Very exciting, nobody around to share the good news with. Water temp (surface is 79 too). I did see a ripple (what is the right name?) on the surface of the water just at dark that is consistent with a large fish.

Cool! No surprise if you got rid of a bunch of carp.

Get this:
Today i got a 4'4" S. Disk, the lake is looking beautiful, like the old lake, and without any vegetation, this is so wonderful. I took the day off, had two Nuns (fundraising nuns from Boston) out here today, one went for a ride with me in the paddleboat, full habit.
Now get this: GF LakeChairs house was vandalized last night: new fangled version of the old Toilet Paper trick, updated to women's feminine products stuck all over the front of her house, along with condoms filled with lotion, and a large silver long screw placed on her doormant, sounds like the message might be screw you? She is very, very upset. This is Stepfordville, hundreds of hours went into researching the fish kill, the lake is getting better everyday, and then this. Wonder if my house will be next?
Biggest catch yesterday was a 6 pound Walleye.

Sounds like an act of desperation from a crew that realizes they were all wrong. Time to set up a security camera (they are not that expensive -- you can get four for the perimeter of the house at Sams Club, and catch them in the act. Then press charges and really publicize it.

Clarity is getting better and better: can't hardly believe it:
5'2", how can that be? Fav Guy used a peroxide based treatment today as we are finally having hot sunny days with little wind.

PHOTOS, WE NEED PHOTOS. These could have been caption contest photos. In all my 51 years I've never seen two nuns in a paddleboat, I mean come on, how often does that happen? 2cat, you must learn to post photos. Don't make me come out there!




On second though, never mind with the photos.

Seriously though GF must be quite upset. As Cecil said, sounds like time for a security camera in Stepfordville and motion sensor lights, a baseball bat, a shotgun, night vision goggles, a half dozen shuriken and a ninja suit.

Ok, well the sensor lights might be overkill.

I would definitely have no hesitation with baseball bat in hand!

Just like those morons that were protesting at the fallen troops' funerals, if my nephew had come back in body bag, and those folks were scheduled to show up I'd be handing out baseball bats. Knowing myself and my relatives we would have enjoyed it too.

You Guys:
Sit down, I am on cloud nine - the secchi disk reading is get this: 6'4"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am so happy, we will get our lake back, this has been 2004, 05, 06, 07, 08, and now 09. Between the BOS and the fish kill, look what has happened, from 2.8" to 6.4" WOW........................

I told Sister Margaret Mary that I wished GFLakechair was home as she is a good catholic girl, that I was a never mind.....

OK:
Sat. S. Disk, 6'8" today 7'. Way too good to be true with water at 80 degrees, and 5 hot, sunny, still days with no water movement to speak of. Big retirement party next door last night: lots of positive feedback, everyone saying this is what the lake was like 15 years ago. Of course we aren't out of the woods yet, but this sort of means to me that we can restore the lake.
Carp are in here, and a few large fish jumping (must be LMB), but no sign of anything small or a g.shad. We will have fish kill 2 in September probably. Usually when we get treated 2-5 g. shad, small ones wash up dead a day later, no sign of that, wit 2 treatment since. I concluded maybe these fish are on top of the water when they treat, and get hit, they are fragile.
I am spending every moment I can out there, this is the summer of fun, and its winding down soon, so sad.

Good for you Lynda! What a difference a 7 foot clarity must be to the naked eye! Don't be surprised if it doubles that if you have the depth especially later this fall when temps drop. I believe you said the lake is former gravel pit?

I would not doubt if all the gizzard shad have been eliminated as they are very sensitive to rotenone. However the few carp that escaped the treatment or have come in since then are troubling. If you don't figure out how to stop immigration of fish you may be right back in the same boat in a few years. Best case scenario is a good predator fish population will keep the carp at bay somewhat, but not completely. The common carp really like to stir up the bottom in search of invertebrates. One of my probable ancestors S.F. Baird of the U.S. Fish Commission that introduced them, should have been fired and summarily shot at dawn.

Keep us posted!

BTW if you can email any pictures to me I would be glad to post them for you.

So the carp are your fault! The lake is only 8 feet deep, and one section where it is 9'. They will come back and get rid of the rest. Cecil, it is so exciting! I am swimming (with life jacket on) and floating and working on my buffer zone of plants which are beautiful and worked so well to hold the sand in.
The outflow or residents installed the bad fish - no fishery management ever, ever despite the study of 1991 that suggested out of balance fishery (stunted bluegill) could be the cause of the green water. I saw a fish jump (carp don't jump?) so maybe a few bass survived, but no evidence of anything else anywhere, and now we can see. Now it will be possible to get benefical plants in there to compete with the CLP. I am so happy!

Carp jump, so it may well have been a carp.

Absolutely. Never had one do it on the line but I've seen them do it repeatedly during spawning.

What's CLP?

Thank you for the clarification, where would I be without you guys?
OK, this evening I got an 8 ft. Secchi Disk Reading, dropped it down further at that spot and the lake is 9ft deep there. Will go around tomorrow and look at the 8 ft areas of the lake if I have time. My asst. is on vacation this week, husband is sick going for ultrasound & cat scan on Wed, hope it all comes out well. GF LakeChair hubby is a little concerned about me and GFLakechair being such good buddies, he thinks I am a bad influence since I had a little too much Baileys at that party the other night: How often is there a party next door with the lake like that? I have been the designated driver for over 30 years, can't I cut loose just a bit?

Let 'er rip.

We have an amazingly clear lake, with zero scum or bubbles in the am in my area, which we have had forever. Large LM Bass have been spotted (the lake is so clear) so there is an effort back on to get them and move them, before the fish kill again in the fall.
Can I use a nylon to try and look at the zooplankton population? It must coming back, wouldn't that account for a lot of the clarity? They sure stressed the Daphinia (sp?) at the Lake Leader Institute Class on zooplankton.
Will be interesting to see how long before next treatment is needed, and what happens in a large rain event, since the drains were cleaned in the spring.
We are pretty sure we know who the vandal was. I think someone's summer was ruined who likes to have his 23-26 year old buddies over to fish. Person has a record too, and has pulled pranks before. We will try to obtain his help in bringing LM back, and give him one of the Spawning Boxes we had made (still sitting here at my work)for his place. His parent's place is very close to me. SILVER LINING HERE: Now GF LakeChair has the perfect reason to make sure we get a BALANCED FISHERY RESTOCKING PLAN, the idea of "LMBass only and don't tell anyone" won't fly now. God works in funny ways.
Mr. Goody Two Shoes GFLC Hubby better just get over me. GF LakeChair and I can move mountians, so many try to drive a wedge between us, we cannot let that happen.