Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Finally, the Fish Kill Took Place!

The fish kill took place on my lake when I was out of town at the Lake/Stream Leaders Institute at Kellog Biological Station on beautiful, pristine Gull Lake. It did not take place as we expected and I got frantic phone calls from Girlfriend LakeChair while it was happening.
It was supposed to be on Tues., but because rain was in the forecast (a permit requirement)it was postponed until Thursday, so fate spared me viewing the fish die in large numbers. Made me happy.
I am told it was a circus like atmosphere with people all out on their decks watching, and the access site crawling with spectators. Boys of Summer did not do the procedure, they hired another company to do it, same guys who did the fish survey, and part of the deal was for them to remove the dead fish to a dumpster brought on site - something they normally do not do.
With all those people watching, imagine, they could not get the motor to start, all suited up in protective gear, long shirts, long pants, poor guy. They exchanged motors with another boat. They started applying the chemical in front of my place first. People expected to see dead fish start coming up immediately, which did not happen. It took some time: the first fish to come up were all the small minnows and fry. The next fish to come up were larger than expected populations of crappie, and the bluegill. There were very few small LM Bass, and we did a great job harvesting the bigger ones as there were not too many - although some people tried to revive the larger ones, but failed.
Believe it or not, my husband took the day off work to cover for me since I was out of town, how nice. The applicator told him he guaranteed that nothing would survive in the lake with the amount of rotenone (sp) used. The water temp was 74, and we know it works best at cooler temps thanks to Cecil and the information he sent us. The guys spent the night. By the next morning the fish were coming up by the thousands, the Gizzard Shad, big ones. They picked up about 1,000 lbs. of fish and left by 7:00 p.m. Friday. When everyone woke up on Saturday our lake was a sea of dead fish, majority being Gizzard Shad, and there were some suckers, a few bullheads, some carp, but 90% G.S. A stinking mess! Girlfriend LakeChair had gone to Flint to care for her mom, just out of the hospital. She got a call from her frantic husband Harvey at midnight Friday saying all the fish were coming to the surface, what to do? Harvey sprung into action the next morning by 7:00 calling board members and residents saying the dumpster was being hauled away within an hour, please come and help. This is the best part: residents rallied together and got out there and bagged up the fish, at least 1,000 lbs, mostly G.Shad and some larger carp. They kept asking where I was. Although we have been writing in the newsletter about the GShad for months, we found we had many people who thought we were doing the wrong thing, until they saw how many G.Shad there were, they were all shocked and now on board with the total fish kill. The Shad had taken over the lake. The numbers of fish matched what the fish survey revealed very closely, with the exception of the crappie.
I arrived home at 8:00 pm Sat. evening, and there were still dead fish floating about into the shore, so I made several trips around my end of the lake and picked them up, mostly GS and some suckers or small carp, not sure. Same thing on Sunday morning. Residents got about another 500 lbs. of fish out,(thank goodness it was windy and not hot.) These fish are bagged up and stinking at the access site and GF Lakechair is trying to get a special pick up this a.m. to get them out of here. It is ripe.
Last night under the willow tree with a spotlight 7 large carp were spotted in the lake, looking like they were not struggling in anyway. Ken Grand (we would be lost without him) speared one large one, and this will be reported to the applicators, they may have to come back while the permits are still good, unless they floated up overnight. I am so glad I missed this process and instead had one of the most fun/interesting events of my life at the Lake Leader Institute, intensive 3 days of education and field work in an awful lake at a bird sanctuary, and a cold water stream collecting. We learned how to assess the plants, bugs, water chemistry on both the lake and the stream. The lake made mine look pristine.

Find out how they did the application. Deep water with O2 sometimes acts as a safe haven. If there are carp left then there are others as well (catfish/bullheads, and other poor water quality survivors) but should have taken care of the GShad. They should have taken steps to avoid that. If you think you (the subdivision group) saw most of the dead fish you should have seen the bottom - a lot end up there. Glad for the GShad report and the confirmation of the problem. Any pics of the fish to share ?

EWest:
Just ran into GF out there. She said they said this a.m. that the chemical should stay active for 7 days in this water. If they don't wash up by then, they will have to come back. I picked up about 5, I think they are 10" carp, not suckers, and more G. Shad.
People took photos, I can't do computer, will bring them to the conference.
Another great guy who is helping us is John Dettmers Phd, Sr. Fishery Biologist of G. Lake Firshery Commission, and I think he hit it right back in the spring. He surmised that fish would take refuge in strong springs, drains. Esp. if oxygen is coming in. But other people say springs don't usually supply oxygen (?). This is what I think: strong, heavy, record spring rains, water table is very high, our lake maintains its level on its own (theories spoken: top of the aquifer, artesian springs, etc.) and the water coming in from the springs is stronger than usual.
This is cool: one homework assignment is to send a report on the one website that has helped you the most. This info will be compiled and used by many experts in the future in Michigan, these people are from Michigan State and other places. OF COURSE, MINE WILL BE A DETAILED REPORT ABOUT POND BOSS FORUM!

Ground water is uaually quite low on Oxygen, often high in Nitrogen (IIRC). Neither of these conditions is good for fish.

As much time and effort that you are putting into this project, if there are any doubts about any of the unwanted fish making it thru the application, I'd hit it again to make sure everyone is dead.

Fav Guy BOS said lots of fish would go to the bottom as well, increasing the phos. for a while. Why do they sink to the bottom?
We are 8-9ft. total depth. Would the springs dilute the chemical where they are possibly hanging out to avoid it?

2cat, your fish kill sounds amazingly similar to mine. With mine it was obvious that the fish did not sink to the bottom but rather got stuck there while floundering for oxygen. Often while I was cleaning up the dead fish over the next three days, I would witness one that had just broken free from the bottom and came floating towards the surface at a pretty fast pace. Their bodies would be half covered in muck. Particularly the large mouth bass took longer to come up because their mouths held more debris from the bottom. I also only found one grass carp and one catfish so I assume there are more that survived the "kill". And I estimate that by weight my pond (1 acre) was easily 90% shad. My friend called them "Buck" Shad (North Carolina term?) but I'm not sure what they were other than a nuisance that had consumed my pond. Had no idea they were there until the fish kill; only knew "something" wasn't right. Good luck with your restock!

Hi Matt:
That was the unintended good consequence of the residents having to pick a lot up. Because you never see those shad other than one or two washing up dead after lake treatments, you don't know they are there, they don't bite on hooks, etc. So it worked out well in the end.
Our lake doesn't have much muck, it is sandy with about 3-4" of sediment in the deeper parts of the basin, and there is zero vegetation in the lake. We basically have a dead lake right now.
Have to wait for the zooplankton to rebound before restocking, and we have to put minnows in a cage to see if they survive. Then we have to fight to get a balanced fishery, not just LM Bass. Bottom line, We Got er Done, will see if they have to come back. I had a dream last night that the carp washed up dead.

We had 3 large carp come up dead today, 4 days after the chemical was applied.

2Catwoman,

Not sure if I said cold water is the best time to rotenone fish? I believe it was that it takes longer to detoxify in cold water.

Glad you finally had your fish kill. Hopefully it was 100 percent but I've see lots of them in larger bodies of water where there were always a few survivors -- especially carp. Not sure how they do it but...

Yes Cecil:
You gave the best information, and also your heads up about the aquaculture conference got us the contact of J. Dettmers who is a great help too. You are the best. I saw a fish jump out of the water across the lake tonight at 7:00.

I picked up one dead 12" sucker this a.m., see no other sign of life, will go out with spotlights at night to look for carp.

You gotta post some pics! Where are the pics???

Sorry guys, no pics. I wasn't here and I am not smart enough to do the photos anyway. I got one more dead g. shad, think he was in the storm drain, there is a terrible smell coming out of it. Wonder how long it will take for the zooplankton to rebound. It is kind of like a dead lake, the Herons aren't around now, etc. I am glad the residents had to get out there and see those g.shad and how they had taken over. I have to believe with the amount of dead g.shad (more suckers than we imagined too) they were just eating all the zooplankton. How these fish all survived in here is a mystery to me, no vegetation, no habitat. GF Lakechair is worried that all the carp did not die.

Is there a fair sized stream feeding the lake? With all the suckers you speak of, there must be...

No CJ:
It is only storm drains and strong springs that feed this lake. Unlike some of the others, our lake stands alone, does not flow in or out of any of the other 5 lakes. But think of this: the lake existed prior to the development of the homes which were built in the mid to late 70's. Our lakes were gravel pits, but are shallow. There has been zero fishery management ever to our knowledge. In addition, we outflow (to control the water level) through an engineered system under a street and under a yard to what is called the Ferry Drain. The Ferry Drain is an old agricultural drain (Ferry Seed Co.) coming down north, where it was all farm land prior to development. It flows east to the Clinton River, which flows to Lake St. Clair. There are other creeks etc. that flow into the Ferry Drain north of us.
We know that our flap valve was left in the open position (not sure if on purpose to stop complaints to the city of the lake not draining, or just by accident)for at least 3 years before the lake went bad in 2004. We documented that and took photos. I have seen the carp in the drain which is called the creek by residents. So who knows where all these junk fish came from?
Another battle yet to be fought is to slow down the flow of the creek in heavy rains, as it appears that we cannot drain off in heavy rain events until the creek level subsides, with all the development north more and more storm water has been put into the system. Nothing is easy here, but it is worth the fight.

Seems like the suckers are coming in from some other BOW. Perhaps they are migrating up the "Ferry Drain". If that is the case, I would bet fish will migrate up the "Ferry Drain" again and repopulate the lake now that the fish kill has been done. It may be a moot point trying to control the exact species that are going to be in your lake, with their being a way for "trash" fish to get back into the lake on their own again???

I think you are right, and I think the carp came from the same drain.

If it makes you feel any better the 80 fish I harvested from your lake in the spring are complete pigs. They are 100% feed trained (bass too) and have grown in leaps in bounds!! I am guessing their is a couple bluegill approaching the 1# mark. Thanks again, I thought it may make you feel a little bit better about the fish kill.

If there are any rough fish left in the lake it's imperative to get predator fish in there ASAP before the rough fish spawn. Spawning time for carp and gizzard shad is next spring. And by all means there should be no way for more fish to enter the lake.

Thank you guys!
As you know the fish kill was not my call, I just did the research and agreed to go along to get along as I am viewed as the trouble maker around here. That is ok with me, I like it! They may get the company back to do another fish kill for the carp they are seeing over at GFLakeChairs at night. I have not seen a sign of any live fish yet. We had heavy rains and some dead ones came out of the drains, rotting ones, really gross. Like falling apart gross, and reeking. Buried those quickly.

When the flap valve opens to drain out, maybe fish are coming in through there? If carp survived, would that be all that bad, I can't imagine the GS did, we will keep looking. So glad we harvested lots of LM & Bluegill, thank you bigbrando, you did make me feel better. Another guy came for several days and also got lots of bluegill out. Will keep looking and advise GFLakeChair of your posts.

Definately, if the flap opens for the water to get out, carp can get in by swimming upstream. You'll probably not find any live Gizzards, they will die with lower doses of Rotenone than common carp. If she's still seeing carp, then I would have them come out and hit it again. If you can get the carp population down, even tho they're not 100% eliminated, if you can get a good predator base in before the spawn next Spring, you may be able to keep them in check for a longer period of time.

If you can find someone that knows how to fish for carp, and is willing to do so this year, the more you can get out before they spawn next Spring, the better.

Esshup,

Do you think they can put a screen over the flap too? I guess it won't keep small ones out but at least it would keep the adults out. Only downside is it could block debris and would have to be watched.

I would also be concerned with gizzard shad making their way back in. I'm sure some went downstream.

I think any sort of screen that is small enough to catch fish will catch debris at the wrong time (high water events). Unless there was some way to make the water fall a ways, I don't know if they could keep the trash fish out of the BOW. I haven't seen evidence of carp or Gizzards jumping up a waterfall like Salmon.

True. I do know from experience small bluegills will swim up a 6 inch pipe that is over 200 feet long against a fairly decent flow of somewhat less than 45 gpm. Ever since then I have pulled up my flexible pipe inflow quite a bit if in use to keep fish from swimming up it. I don't like fish species where I don't want them. I go to too much trouble to prevent that.