Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Mixed Bass Lake

I am still in the "dreaming" phase of a 30-40 acre lake in the Flint Hills region of central Kansas. The streams (or "cricks") in the area have spotted bass (kentucky bass) in the pools. I could not find any discussion of this species in the PB forum.

What is the wisdom of the resident experts on a Bass-BG lake with LMB, SMB, and spotted bass?

My favorite fishery as a kid was a 450 acre reservoir in SE Kansas about 50 miles SE of my future lake location. It was in an area of sandstone hills with oak trees that looked like a minature version of Table Rock Lake in Ark. The lake had 60' deep water in front of the dam. It produced a few LMB up to 6-8#, but you almost always caught more spotted bass. We generally caught 10-14" spotted bass on plastic worms, but you could catch 6" bass on tiny spinners if you could get it past the BG. The reservoir also had SMB. The biggest I ever caught was 4.5#, and we never caught more than 1 or 2 on a trip.

The spotted bass were by far the easiest to catch and seemed the most aggressive. They were always solid chunky fish. However, sometimes over the years the LMB appeared "stunted". (That is the head of a 6# LMB on a fish that weighed 3.5# to 4#.)

The dream pond would have some rocky shorelines and some natural gravel beds. Max. depth would be about 20 feet. The lake would be fed by a rocky creek with a very large drainage area. (I will lose some fish through the emergency spillway every other spring.)

Thanks for any help.

Spotted bass info on the forum is a bit spotty... OK, that was a lame pun but I couldn't help myself!

Spotted bass are more of a stream bass, perhaps even more so than SMB. However, they do well in some reservoirs, particularly those that are deep, clear and rocky. It is my experience that SMB and LMB do not generally coexist well in ponds and smaller lakes. The LMB just simply out compete the SMB. SMB can be maintained by stocking advanced size fingerlings, say 8" or longer each year. Without that, the LMB generally take over. Dave Willis, one of the most respected fisheries biologist and forum member wrote this article on SMB and LMB in the same pond: http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/largemouth_smallmouth.html

Now remember, a 30-40 acre lake is much larger than almost any other forum members lake I know of on here and far larger than the ponds in the article. At that size, there may just be enough room for SMB to coexist with LMB. However, I believe it would require a substantial amount of habitat work to give SMB more of what they are looking for. Lots of rock, logs and depth. With this, you may be able to maintain both LMB and naturally reproducing SMB populations. However, many local reservoirs that have SMB in the rivers and creeks that feed them do not have SMB in the lake itself, but rather only LMB. If there were no LMB in that lake I guarantee there would be SMB in the lake as well.

Throw spotted bass into the mix and you make it all that much more difficult to maintain all 3 bass species through natural reproduction. I think a spotted/LMB lake would be easier to pull off with SMB being the harder of the 3 species to maintain.

Bill Cody's series of articles on SMB in ponds is on the 3rd part in the most recent issue with Part 1 and Part 2 being in the previous issues. There is some excellent information in there, if you don't subscribe I would highly recommend you do. The article written by Dave Willis was also originally posted in Pond Boss as well.

CJ,

Thanks for the advice. I have followed some of the various LMB/SMB threads and articles. I was just surprised there was not more information on spotted bass.

What do you think about the aggression/catchability of the spotted bass. My kids love catching them and they are good eating.

Since I can't run your 50 pond experiment, would you risk adding the spotted bass to your dream LMB/BG lake knowing you only had one lake, or go with more of the sure thing?

Thanks.

I don't have a lot of spotted bass experience in small ponds. So I can't give first hand advice. Maybe try posting a separate thread on spotted bass with a title of say Spotted Bass In Small Ponds? And see what others have to say...

FishinRod -- I really don't know of any "solid" information to provide to you. I'm afraid you'll be breaking new ground on this one. With 30-40 acres in mind, you have a good chance to have some fun. The worst that would happen is something like what happens when LMB and SMB are combined in KS - the SMB gradually are lost (I used to work in Emporia). Depending on how much you want them, the smallies can be maintained with some stockings of larger fish. I can't even predict how the spots will fit into the mix, but the same thing applies. If you are truly interested, and willing to spend time and/or money, then your options are much greater.

In the KS and MO impoundments where all three bass persist and thrive, there typically is enough habitat difference from upper to lower end to see at least a partial segregation of the species. LMB tend to be upper in the more turbid upper end or bays, often with woody debris or aquatic plants. SMB tend to be at the lower end in clearer water with more rocky habitat. The spots tend to be in between. So, you might plan your pond construction with an eye toward habitat. Can you place or keep some trees or tree structures in the upper, shallow end. If your site doesn't have rocks, can you haul in rocks for the lower end and create some prime habitat for SMB and spots? Could be fun.

Good luck to you!

Dave,

Yes, this is very similar to the Emporia area. Especially where the limestone layers form a flat (ribbon) outcrop across the Flint Hills. I am hoping to build a lake with normal pool level at the outcrop and have a nice rocky shoreline.

I don't think the SMB will thrive if I also add LMB. However, I am intrigued by the pond dynamics with spotted bass in a lake with LMB/BG. Do you know anyone that tried to manage the spotted bass in this area?

I think I will take CJ's advice and try a spotted bass thread.

F-Rod

This sounds like an ambitous and very interesting project.

Something to consider: You could begin with your BG, SMB and Spots and see if the SMB and Spots together can keep the BG in check. If not, you can always add LMB at a later date. That's the process I'm following with my pond - start with SMB and only add LMB if needed later. I don't have much experience with Spots, but I'm guessing LMB would outcompete both SMB and Spots and would thusly require supplemental stockings to keep their respective populations thriving.

T,

Thanks for the advice. Is your pond mud-bottom, sand, or rock? I do like SMB, but I am a fair bit south of you. How are they thriving in your pond?

If am going to be overly-ambitious anyway I might be able to fit in a 1 acre pond across a draw and make a SMB/BG only pond. If I get too many SMB, then I could always throw a few in the lake.

I have all clay but created a lot of limestone structure: Piles, points, fields of limestone of various sizes. I am not too concerned with SMB pulling off spawns in my main pond as I have a .35 acre pond dedicated to SMB reproduction. I know SMB are very common in reservoirs all over KS, and if you have a pond like you describe I think they will thrive. Aaron Matos had SMB pulling spawns in AZ with 90+ water temps for a few weeks annually. Imagine that!

The only reason I would introduce LMB would be to help suppress the BG pops - and I'd stick with Female only to prevent reproduction. I think my HSB, YP and SMB should keep the BG down, but at least I have a fallback position.

Bob and Bruce thought adding some Muskie might be an interesting BG management tool also - might do that down the road.

I think your SMB pond sounds very cool...you wouldn't regret it I don't think.

FishinRod -- Nope, I have no examples of use of the spots to help you. You are on your own. They are indeed a cool fish!

I do have advice on your SMB/BLG pond -- don't do it. SMB don't have the predation capability of LMB, and you run a fair risk of having your BLG overpopulate with only SMB as your predator. However, I've got a great solution. Stock that pond with the SMB and redear sunfish combination. Redears are a cool fish as well, they do well in the Emporia area (far enough south), and probably on average get a tad bit bigger than bluegills in comparable waters. The redears have a much lower reproductive output than the bluegills, and thus do well with the smallies. There is documented work on the SMB/redear combination.

Dave - I know you have mentioned orange-spotted sunfish before when talking about a smallie fishery. Would adding them to the SMB/Redear combination have any drawbacks?

I know orange-spots are too small to be caught on rod and reel, but with an additional forage fish do you think the smallies would have a better growth rate than in a pond with just Redear?

Dave

SMB plus Spots would help take care of the BG? Just asking if a Spot could perhaps fill the niche of the LMB in terms of BG cropping? Guess no one really knows at this point...that's why I think a SMB/Spot/BG fishery might be worth a try if he wants to stock LMB eventually anyhow?

FR, see comments on your other spot thread. I did not see this thread I gree with what Dave had to say. The largemouth in Laniier tedn to be up chatt river which has little poor WQ than other main river. However you can catch them back to back anywhere in the laek at times. I woudl guess Lanier is now about 85/15 spot to lmb. In our best smallmouth lake in GA spots are now starting to takeover, it stinks.

However I too Love spots some my best memories with my Dad is catching magnum 4-5 lb spots in Lanier on isolated humps in the middle of the lake. When they come up to hit a spook you better hold on. They are a hard fighting fun fish.

Greg

Do you know about the spawning needs for Spots? If they need specific conditions in order to pull a spawn, say more difficult to acheive than SMB or LMB, one could use them to crop BG populations and not worry about reproduction and domination? Obviously if they spawn easily this won't work.

Csteffen -- I can think of no problem with adding OSS. I have been disappointed in my one 7-acre SMB pond with OSS [I think everyone knows when I say "my" it really isn't mine; just one I get to manage. Darn it, anyway. ] The OSS have hung on, so that's good. Some prey is always good. However, it sure changed nothing in the pond. The SMB are still skinny. The only time I have really seen the OSS in SMB stomachs has been during the OSS spawning time, I believe. At that time, I had one 18 inch smallie spit out three OSS while I was reeling him in.


TJ -- I just don't know about the SMB/Spot/BLG idea. I do agree with your one point. If he has a source of adult LMB, he can always "correct" any BLG problem later by stocking advanced sizes of LMB. Plus, most new ponds go gangbusters for a while. What if it takes 5 years for the BLG to finally get overly abundant? In any case, that redear option is a good, safe one.

Side question: Do Smallies hork up their last meal more than other bass when being caught? I've had two SMB lose Gambusia when I reeled them in, but have not seen this with my LMB.

And that's exactly why I stocked 800 RES instead of BG into my main pond - thanks to your guidance.

Theo that is definitely the case! last time it happened the perch it tossed up landed right in my dad's coffee! How's that for aim?