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Getting closer and closer...Hopefully soon I'll find a source.

http://www.ms-sportsman.com/details.php?id=361

Last edited by ewest; 01/06/16 12:20 PM.

Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Interesting.


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TJ, you create a diversion and I'll snatch the fish! Flash powder seems like a good idea now!



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TJ, if Todd is willing to experiment with chubsuckers, maybe you can beg him into experimenting with triploid crappies. I honestly think there would be a market even if the fish cost $3 or $4 a piece because of the labor intensive methods used to create them. Most pond owners will only need to stock between 50-100 crappie per year at most to create a quality fishery. At $4 per fish, that's $200 to $400. I know I would pay that to have a healthy AND manageable crappie fishery in my pond! Then again, that's just me...

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Totally agree, Travis. I simply want a chance to grow 15-18" fish and bring friends and tell them to throw a tube jig and hold on. I could stock regular Crappie - but would have to select Female only, and I can only sex them on beds. [that sounded pretty interesting!]

I'd also like to stock fish in my main pond...but they'd have to be single sex or triploids - or both, to be completely safe.

Does Todd ever chime in on the forum these days?


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 Originally Posted By: Rainman
TJ, you create a diversion and I'll snatch the fish! Flash powder seems like a good idea now!

Speaking of flash powder....did condello post his video yet?


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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 Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Totally agree, Travis. I simply want a chance to grow 15-18" fish and bring friends and tell them to throw a tube jig and hold on. I could stock regular Crappie - but would have to select Female only, and I can only sex them on beds. [that sounded pretty interesting!]

I'd also like to stock fish in my main pond...but they'd have to be single sex or triploids - or both, to be completely safe.

Does Todd ever chime in on the forum these days?


He just sent me my bill for my LCS a couple days ago, so I know he is around... If he doesn't chime in, maybe we can PM him and see if he thinks it's feasible. The ability to stock crappie into your main fishing pond knowing their competition with other fish will be minimal and their management very easy is what I think many are looking for. About the only way I see of having crappie in a main pond is to keep the bass numbers very high. I know of only few small ponds where the crappie fishing is respectable and all of them have overpopulated stunted bass. Even with that the crappies run 10"-12" with a 15" fish being large.

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Thanks for the nudge-nudge. If anyone is going to make triploids for us it will be Bobby Glennon at Malone's Fish Farm in Arkansas. They already have the high pressure chambers for making triploidy and they have the ploidy testing equipment as well. These are very high $ pieces of equipment.

I see the need for triploids, but don't see the investment paying off for myself in reasonable time.


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"...but don't see the investment paying off for myself in reasonable time."

That's simply because you are paying Clint the big bucks.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

Sunil #171690 07/05/09 07:06 PM
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Well Todd, as long as someone out there breeds them. Just keep us updated on the progress Malone's is having in getting some triploid crappies to be a reality...

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Todd

What if the forum came up with a 10,000 fish order?


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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LOL!!

At $4 ea, confirm the order by paying 1/2 down, and we'll get started in 2010.

I'll be checking my mailbox for that check........ \:\)

Last edited by overtonfisheries; 07/06/09 08:46 PM.

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Guess I'd better learn how to determine crappie sex...


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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With shipping I almost paid $4 per lake chubsucker! I just didn't order 500 of them... HAHA I have wanted to get my hands on LCS for a long long time though.

Come on TJ, you can muscle up $2000 for your dream hybrid crappie pond. ;\)

By the way Todd, check is in the mail... Also, have you got any idea on the sexing technology spoken about? Being able to sex immature crappie. It may be a cheaper alternative to the triploid route. I believe triploids may have a shorter life span and not grow as big as well?

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 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
With shipping I almost paid $4 per lake chubsucker! I just didn't order 500 of them... HAHA I have wanted to get my hands on LCS for a long long time though.

Come on TJ, you can muscle up $2000 for your dream hybrid crappie pond. ;\)

By the way Todd, check is in the mail... Also, have you got any idea on the sexing technology spoken about? Being able to sex immature crappie. It may be a cheaper alternative to the triploid route. I believe triploids may have a shorter life span and not grow as big as well?


AND....Which sex grows larger for Crappie?


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Found this:

How can one distinguish between male and female black crappies?
Typically male black crappies have darker and more iridescent heads and breasts than the females have.


Hardly scientific...[sigh]


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TJ, crappie usually spawn a little deeper than you can see at least IME. So I am not sure you can be 100% sure you are only gonna get males... Not like you can actually see the male sitting on the nest. And I think males don't get as big as females, so you really would wanna get all females. All it would take is one mistake and you got a mess!

I think our best bet yet is to either get triploid crappie, or see if they can come out with a test to sex fingerling crappies. If you could sex out say crappies at 3". In that scenario you could stock them much like CC. Say 50 per acre per year. You may have to grow them out to say 6" so they avoid being bass food though, sorta like what you have to do with CC. Or you could use them as a top of the line predator like you are thinking of doing with your one pond. Something like a crappie only pond. Just golden shiners and other forage fish like FHM or BNM. Boy you could grow some monster crappies that way! Complete control of reproduction as they are all females... I really think that may be the best way to accomplish your goal.

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 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
TJ, crappie usually spawn a little deeper than you can see at least IME. So I am not sure you can be 100% sure you are only gonna get males... Not like you can actually see the male sitting on the nest. And I think males don't get as big as females, so you really would wanna get all females. All it would take is one mistake and you got a mess!

I think our best bet yet is to either get triploid crappie, or see if they can come out with a test to sex fingerling crappies. If you could sex out say crappies at 3". In that scenario you could stock them much like CC. Say 50 per acre per year. You may have to grow them out to say 6" so they avoid being bass food though, sorta like what you have to do with CC. Or you could use them as a top of the line predator like you are thinking of doing with your one pond. Something like a crappie only pond. Just golden shiners and other forage fish like FHM or BNM. Boy you could grow some monster crappies that way! Complete control of reproduction as they are all females... I really think that may be the best way to accomplish your goal.


Why not feed train them while you're at it and eliminate worries about getting a good forage base going or that they could potentially crop off? I know of a couple of hatcheries that were able to do this fairly easily with crappies.

Only downside I see to female only crappies could be egg bound females. Don't know if that would be a problem or not. On the other hand triploid sterile females are produced very commonly now with trout. If that was the case with the crappies, being egg bound would not be an issue, and additionally they would put energy into growing vs. gonadal development.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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 Originally Posted By: overtonfisheries
LOL!!

At $4 ea, confirm the order by paying 1/2 down, and we'll get started in 2010.

I'll be checking my mailbox for that check........ \:\)


I don't think you'd have a problem selling them even at $4.00 a piece if they were feed trained Todd. Sure there would be people that would think that is too expensive but for a serious pond owner it wouldn't be out of the question. Many of us spend more money on feed and herbicides.

I could even afford 100 with 50 percent down.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
TJ, crappie usually spawn a little deeper than you can see at least IME. So I am not sure you can be 100% sure you are only gonna get males... Not like you can actually see the male sitting on the nest. And I think males don't get as big as females, so you really would wanna get all females. All it would take is one mistake and you got a mess!

I think our best bet yet is to either get triploid crappie, or see if they can come out with a test to sex fingerling crappies. If you could sex out say crappies at 3". In that scenario you could stock them much like CC. Say 50 per acre per year. You may have to grow them out to say 6" so they avoid being bass food though, sorta like what you have to do with CC. Or you could use them as a top of the line predator like you are thinking of doing with your one pond. Something like a crappie only pond. Just golden shiners and other forage fish like FHM or BNM. Boy you could grow some monster crappies that way! Complete control of reproduction as they are all females... I really think that may be the best way to accomplish your goal.


Why not feed train them while you're at it and eliminate worries about getting a good forage base going or that they could potentially crop off? I know of a couple of hatcheries that were able to do this fairly easily with crappies.

Only downside I see to female only crappies could be egg bound females. Don't know if that would be a problem or not. On the other hand triploid sterile females are produced very commonly now with trout. If that was the case with the crappies, being egg bound would not be an issue, and additionally they would put energy into growing vs. gonadal development.


Cecil - pellet trained Crappie? Seriously? That's news to me, but everything is news to me...can you talk more about this or PM me or something? You and Travis have me back into my frenzied state on my Crappie pond.


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 Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
TJ, crappie usually spawn a little deeper than you can see at least IME. So I am not sure you can be 100% sure you are only gonna get males... Not like you can actually see the male sitting on the nest. And I think males don't get as big as females, so you really would wanna get all females. All it would take is one mistake and you got a mess!

I think our best bet yet is to either get triploid crappie, or see if they can come out with a test to sex fingerling crappies. If you could sex out say crappies at 3". In that scenario you could stock them much like CC. Say 50 per acre per year. You may have to grow them out to say 6" so they avoid being bass food though, sorta like what you have to do with CC. Or you could use them as a top of the line predator like you are thinking of doing with your one pond. Something like a crappie only pond. Just golden shiners and other forage fish like FHM or BNM. Boy you could grow some monster crappies that way! Complete control of reproduction as they are all females... I really think that may be the best way to accomplish your goal.


Why not feed train them while you're at it and eliminate worries about getting a good forage base going or that they could potentially crop off? I know of a couple of hatcheries that were able to do this fairly easily with crappies.

Only downside I see to female only crappies could be egg bound females. Don't know if that would be a problem or not. On the other hand triploid sterile females are produced very commonly now with trout. If that was the case with the crappies, being egg bound would not be an issue, and additionally they would put energy into growing vs. gonadal development.


Cecil - pellet trained Crappie? Seriously? That's news to me, but everything is news to me...can you talk more about this or PM me or something? You and Travis have me back into my frenzied state on my Crappie pond.


I know of two instances of where someone feed trained black crappies and indicated it was not difficult. One is a researcher at the University of Wisconsin, and the other is a trout farm in Wisconsin I used to get my brown trout from. The folks at the trout farm told me they seined fingerling crappies out of a pond and put them in tanks just like the trout fingerlings. She (Ruby Ketula) told me it was not hard at all to get them on feed. I'm not sure they do this on a regular basis, but know that they did at least that one time. The trout farm is the Seven Pines trout farm and their website is here:

http://www.sevenpinesfishery.com/The_Creel.html

I can't remember the name of the researcher at the University of Wisconsin Stevens Point but I'll bet it wouldn't be hard to find out if you contacted them.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 07/10/09 05:27 AM.

If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Thanks Cecil, this is encouraging news...I was planning on having to feed with tons of FHM for my potential crappie pond...now maybe not.


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I have feed trained crappies in my aquarium before. The only game fish I haven't been able to feed train are Esox species.

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 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
I have feed trained crappies in my aquarium before. The only game fish I haven't been able to feed train are Esox species.


Same here on both points.


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Rex has access to hybrid crappie. The only research we've sourced states they will reproduce, but the F2's do not grow fast and are "inferior" and highly susceptible to predation from BG, YP - and in my case, SMB and HSB. I'm pretty leary of introducing mixed sex crappie into my watersheds regardless of whether they're hybrids or not...can anyone confirm or dismiss my fears of overpopulation in regards to hybrid crappie?

http://www.jmmaloneandson.com/hybridcrappie.html

HYBRID CRAPPIE. Hybrid crappie are the first generation cross between a black crappie and a white crappie. The resulting hybrid displays limited reproduction and increased growth.

Early research indicates that hybrid crappie populations are 50% male and 50% female and are capable of producing large numbers of offspring. However, the offspring of hybrid crappie are inferior in terms of growth and are readily controlled (eaten) by bass and bluegill. Therefore, when stocking hybrid crappie in ponds with bass and bluegill very few baby crappie will survive, preventing overpopulation. In a ten year study conducted in Illinois, ponds stocked with hybrid crappie, bass and bluegill, the hybrid crappie were unable to maintain their population (take over the pond).



The same research indicates and F1 Hybrid Crappie grow faster and weigh more than both black crappie and white crappie.

The Hybrid Crappie is new to pond stocking and there is still a great deal to learn about them. Stock 300 Hybrid Crappie per acre and be sure to stock bass and bluegill with them to control reproduction. Due to their limited reproduction Hybrid Crappie will need to be restocked periodically.

The Hybrid Crappie produced by J.M. Malone and Son, Inc. is the original cross between an Arkansas Black Nosed Black Crappie* male and a white crappie female resulting in a hybrid crappie with a black stripe running down its nose. This black stripe is not an indication that a crappie is a hybrid crappie. Therefore, be advised when purchasing hybrid crappie, just because it has a black stripe on its nose does not make it a hybrid crappie.





Last edited by teehjaeh57; 07/09/09 10:05 PM.

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I'm leary on using crappie hybrids. If you wanna be the guinea pig, go for it... Let us know how it works out! HAHA

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 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
I'm leary on using crappie hybrids. If you wanna be the guinea pig, go for it... Let us know how it works out! HAHA


Dude, harsh.


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The thought of inferior F2's swimming around in my pond is less than thrilling... My feeling, if you do do it, make sure you're bass population is well established at first with at least 30 per ace 12" plus bass swimming around to make sure those so called inferior F2's get eaten.

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TJ, let me refer you to a post I made shortly after finding the forum. http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=8679&Number=90537#Post90537



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So, did you ever get the hybrids and if so... How did they work out???

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Just sitting here thinking and that is rare and spooky. I offer this possible contrarian thought.

OK, if you stock the crappie, the bass and bluegill will or should control the offspring. However, the F1 crappies that you stock should do the same job of cleaning out the offspring of the bass and BG. They're pretty well known for that. When the original stocker bass get too big to prey on crappie fry, you might be depending on the decimated BG population to keep the crappie in check.

It should be an interesting experiment.

Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 07/10/09 05:12 AM.

It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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I think I mentioned this is a previous thread but occasionally I get some monster crappies in (18 inches and above) and they invariably turn out to be natural hybrids. They will look like one of the two species (black or white) but have the spine count of the other. I talked to a local biologist about it and he says he sees the hybrids from time to time too.

Here's one I mounted that was 20 or 21 inches.




If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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 Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Just sitting here thinking and that is rare and spooky. I offer this possible contrarian thought.

OK, if you stock the crappie, the bass and bluegill will or should control the offspring. However, the F1 crappies that you stock should do the same job of cleaning out the offspring of the bass and BG. They're pretty well known for that. When the original stocker bass get too big to prey on crappie fry, you might be depending on the decimated BG population to keep the crappie in check.

It should be an interesting experiment.


Good points...I'm not too worried about the SMB or BG populations as I will be raising SMB and will supplement stock annually - and BG are right down the road at Dr. Frankendello's place...

I think I'll try stocking some in a .2 acre pond I have full of FHM and GSH first and see how things progress. Might add a few CSBG and YP also.


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 Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
I think I mentioned this is a previous thread but occasionally I get some monster crappies in (18 inches and above) and they invariably turn out to be natural hybrids. They will look like one of the two species (black or white) but have the spine count of the other. I talked to a local biologist about it and he says he sees the hybrids from time to time too.

Here's one I mounted that was 20 or 21 inches.











Gasp! Beautiful fish and mount. You're vastly talented Cecil.

Anything you can learn about HC would be really helpful. Thanks C.


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Here's a good crappie comparison photo...

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 Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57



Gasp! Beautiful fish and mount. You're vastly talented Cecil.

Anything you can learn about HC would be really helpful. Thanks C.


Thanks for the kind words. However this fish was atypical in as the markings were quite light and subdued so I painted it that way. Note the spot pattern leans toward a black (no bar pattern and mixed) yet their are only 6 spines as in a White Crappie.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
Here's a good crappie comparison photo...


Dude, I think we're all honored you're spending your birthday with us on the forum...but it's FRIDAY NIGHT, YOUR BDAY, and you're TWENTY NINE - get out of the house and have some fun!


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I'm at work... It's the calm before the storm! The dispatcher is putting me to sleep. I am sitting in front of our local night club keeping the crowd under control... Just waiting to hear my designator get called and be sent to the next call. I have internet connection in my police cruiser...

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This thread has morphed since I last checked it. TJ try these.

Additional threads on Black and White and B X W crappie as well diploid and triploid research and success.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=13896&fpart=1



http://forums.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002275;p=1

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000402;p=1

http://forums.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001332

http://forums.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001319

http://forums.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=20&t=001230



Last edited by ewest; 02/05/18 12:45 PM.















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 Originally Posted By: CJBS2003
I'm at work... It's the calm before the storm! The dispatcher is putting me to sleep. I am sitting in front of our local night club keeping the crowd under control... Just waiting to hear my designator get called and be sent to the next call. I have internet connection in my police cruiser...


So is it true no middle ground with your job CJ? Either sheer boredom or adrenaline pumping?


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Yeah, that about sums it up... You go from stuffing your face full of donuts to puking them up 10 minutes later cause you have to chase someone. It's really a pain! HAHA

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Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Stocking QTY advice needed asap:

Rex may be headed this way Wednesday with Hybrid BC. I think the forum will benefit from my stocking experiment, plus I really want to try and raise some trophy BC. I have two options I need your advice on:

Pond 1: .2 acres, 14' depth - millions of GSH and FHM present. Spillway flows into main pond, but I doubt they can traverse the .5" of water into the main pond - not too concerned about introduction into main pond. Need to know stocking qty suggestions. I was thinking 100.

Pond 2: 3.5 acres, max depth 18' - average depth 8', species present: 400 8-12" YP, 50 12" HSB, 800 4-8" RES, 400 2-6" CSBG, FHM GSH PK Shrimp. I was thinking 300-400 here.

I would appreciate any feedback! Thanks


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TJ do you want to do both ,one or the other or 1 best results ?

When was pond 2 at that point (fish sizes)? Any reproduction from those fish yet ?

What size BC ? Are they hybrids , ? Black Stripe and or what hybrids BC X WC ? Feed trained ?

Aeration in these ponds ?
















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TJ do you want to do both ,one or the other or 1 best results ?

Thanks for the response Eric. I want to do both IF it makes sense to do so. I need your help navigating those waters....

I am leaning towards stocking ONLY in the smaller pond with PK, GSH and FHM to see how they perform prior to releasing into my main pond. This seems prudent.....?



When was pond 2 at that point (fish sizes)? Any reproduction from those fish yet ?

I stocked all fish September 08 - all have doubled in size. No reproduction from YP or RES, but have had at least one spawn from the CSBG and there are probably thousands of 1-2" fish present.

What size BC ? Are they hybrids , ? Black Stripe and or what hybrids BC X WC ? Feed trained ?

BC are 4-6" reportedly...you know how that goes, probably many will be 2-4" in my experience.

I believe these are Black Stripes and NOT feed trained

Aeration in these ponds ?

No aeration YET - hopefully installed Spring 09 - but do have well supplementing with 45 GPM in both ponds.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Rex, can you jump in here with any info on these fish?


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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TJ my thought is to go with 100 (if mostly 4 inch - a few more if mostly small) in the small pond. Then adding 20 4-6 inch HSB in the spring/summer. Reason is it may work and is a small risk in the small pond. The other pond will cost more and be a much bigger risk in both $ and to your existing fish if it does not work. Good luck !!
















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Thank you Eric, as ever - sound advice, and amazinginly enough was the direction I was leaning towards.....grasshopper is learning.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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TJ:

I see Rex talked you into being the guinea pig. He was prodding me a while back, but since I only have one pond, I didn't want to be the first one to chance it. It'll be interesting to see how they fare.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
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I built a pond devoted to Triploid BC - since they aren't available, I'm going to break the state record using these!


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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TJ, just make sure you get some predators in the little pond to clean up any of the offspring the crappie produce. I like Eric like the HSB idea. Since you goal is trophy crappie, don't pellet feed them. Make them hungry so they hammer your baby crappies. Is there much structure in the smaller pond?

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T

Zero cover with exception of pvc stubs of various sizes I hammered into the bank for FHM reproduction. I was thinking of adding a couple pvc trees to try and congregate the crappie.

If I end up doing this I will post pics from my efforts Thursday with Rex.


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 Originally Posted By: esshup
TJ:

I see Rex talked you into being the guinea pig. He was prodding me a while back, but since I only have one pond, I didn't want to be the first one to chance it. It'll be interesting to see how they fare.


Actually, TJ approached me on this a while back. If I had regular access to my pond, they would already be in there.


TJ, I was unable to reach Bobby at Malones to find the details on what they suggest for stocking rates, feed trained, and sizes. I'm spending tuesday night with my grand kids in Little Rock and will head to Malones early Wednesday and check out the fish. If it doesn't look or feel right, I'll walk away from the HBC.

Last edited by Rainman; 09/22/09 02:13 AM. Reason: Scott, I only prodded you because it was so much fun seeing you squirm at the yhought of it! :o


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This is just my opinion, but I would limit the cover for the crappie to increase the likelihood of predation by the HSB... Anyone else have an opinion on this?

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Personally, I would like to see a pond managed for regular crappie just to see if control truly is maintained in the normal mix of species. I'm just the delivery boy on this one! I have to admit I am excited to follow the rsults though.

Perhaps my second post after joining the forum will explain why. Back then I had no frikin idea what ewest's post meant---now it's clear as mud!

My second post



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I'm stocking the Mags in a .2 acre pond devoid of anything but forage - PK Shrimp, GSH, and FHM.

I need suggestions on whether or not I need additional species present to cull the reproduction - if I truly need any. I was hopeful the GSH and Mags would crop the YOY Mags to extirpation? I can add some Male CSBG, YP, F LMB, HSB...my goal here is to create a trophy Crappie BOW understanding I'll need supplemental stockings every few years. I'm open to direction - Eric??


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I think go with the small pond and add the BC followed by HSB . If need be you can add more of them or 1 LMB at 12 inches can work on them in a .2 acre pond. You can also seine to achieve the wanted balance easily if needed. Point is .2 acres should be easy to manage around. I would try to stay as close conceptually as you can to the SEP model.


Last edited by ewest; 09/22/09 09:55 AM.















ewest #184498 09/22/09 10:37 AM
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Thanks Eric. I will add a few HSB and some Male CSBG. This should be a useful exercise as the research should be valuable to the forum - to my knowledge I'll be one of the first to experiment with Mags.


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I would make sure the BG are all males... If the goal is for trophy crappies, there is no need for adding any BG. The large BG will compete with the small crappies and the BG will produce lots of offspring making it harder for HSB to control everything... Plus, BG aren't a preferred forage of crappie. Adding a few male BG for trophy BG potential won't make much of a difference though.

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The male BG in a .2 acre pond will eat quite a few BC yoy subject only to gape limits. You don't want a reproducing population of BG in that pond.
















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Only adding HSB and Male BG...and only a few at that. I'm pretty confident in my ability to determine BG sex - I will let you know how the Mag stocking goes.


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congrats and good luck on the new project, TJ. Start thinking about deversifying the forage for this spring, and a way to grow them out.


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The Magnolia/Hybrid Crappie experiment has officially commenced.

I've been raising forage in mini pond 3 [Cedar Pond] which is .2 acres, 1.5:1 slope, max depth 12'. GSH, FHM, and PK Shrimp have been established over the last 12 months, so when Rex kindly asked if he could bring some Magnolia's up during his visit to Bruce I was ready to pull the trigger.

The Goal:

1. Raise trophy Crappie [15"+]
2. Verify scant research available stating Hybrid [Magnolia] Crappie offspring are inferior and don't represent overpopulation risks of regular black or white Crappie IF STOCKED WITH PREDATOR FISH.

With this mind I ordered 150 3-4" Mags - here they are in the truck, healthy, happy, and ready to be introduced to their new digs.




This is Carl - he's my favorite




After exchanging some water and allowing them to adjust to the new water temperature and chemistry, it's time to release Carl's brothers and sisters



Off they go to grow



Based on the theory presented by Jeff Slipke at the Conference and Eric and Travis I also stocked 6 4" HSB and will be adding some Male BG in order to help control reproduction. It's my hope that between adult Mags, HSB, and Male BG I should be able to keep up with any Mag offspring. Considering this is an isolated BOW with very little runoff therefore running little risk of flooding my main lake I can make some mistakes and simply drain and begin anew should things go awry. I like that...minimal pressure.

This winter I may add some PVC trees in order to try and congregate the Crappie, might add supplemental stockings of GSH and FHM - otherwise I'll be collecting and entering data next year and will keep everyone in the loop. With luck we may have found a crappie that, in conjunction with the right combination of predators, can function well [grow large/not overpopulate] in small waters.

My thanks to Rex for his willingness to travel all this way, to everyone's interest and advice on the project, and my compliments to the condition of the fish upon arrival.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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TJ, this is gonna be a neat project. Sounds like you have thought it out real well.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Welcome to Nebraska Carl!

Omaha #185416 09/29/09 07:32 AM
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Home sweet home says Carl while he enjoys his new found freedom.

TJ you may not get any or only limited Crappie reproduction this spring in your location. They may not be mature enough. Need to check on that.

Neat project. Watch closly and keep good records. I see a PB article on this down the road.
















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Very cool project TJ. Keep some detailed records, this has the makings of a future pond boss article. In fact I'd email Bob Lusk and tell him what you're doing and ask him what type of info he'd like to see gathered specifically for a PB article. I like your out of the box thinking.


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Dang Eric, you took the words right out of my keyboard.

Further proof that brilliant minds think alike. \:D


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Thanks all for the props and for your guidance...It's a honor to tackle a project that might provide assistance to my PB bros...


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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What's a Magnolia crappie again? Sorry I didn't read the entire thread.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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BC x WC hybrid - supposedly faster growth and inferior offspring allowing their numbers to be easier to control preventing overpopulation. At least that's what the HATCHERY says...we shall see! ;\)


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 Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
BC x WC hybrid - supposedly faster growth and inferior offspring allowing their numbers to be easier to control preventing overpopulation. At least that's what the HATCHERY says...we shall see! ;\)


Thanks TJ. I'm looking forward to your results. I have mounted some monster BC X WC crappies up to 21 inches.



Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 09/30/09 07:18 AM.

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Wowsa...intriguing to ponder how large I can grow these guys.


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 Originally Posted By: ewest
The male BG in a .2 acre pond will eat quite a few BC yoy subject only to gape limits. You don't want a reproducing population of BG in that pond.


Eric

.2 acre pond
150 4" Mags
6 4" HSB - is that enough?
How many Male BG should I stock to help curb reproduction, if any?
Thanks AGAIN in advance

Last edited by teehjaeh57; 09/30/09 03:02 PM.

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I'd also consider adding 1 LMB. In a .2 acre pond, just one LMB will do a great job of thinning out the crappie as well and with only 1 you have no worries of goofing up and ending up with a breeding LMB population.

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Great thread TJ, I am very interested in your results. best of luck!


Get out and fish.
jakeb #192590 11/18/09 07:37 AM
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Should we add HCP to the Acronyms thread?

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Looks like a plan to me... If TJ has good luck with them, I can see them being added to a lot more ponds in the future!

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TJ,

Do you happen to have an update for us on this? Just wondering how your growth has been for the fish.

I was going to add some of these as well this fall but the timing did not work out for me to get them so I plan to get some in April.


Please let us know.

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TeeJaeh57 – can you give us a quick update? Did anyone else try this combination? 'Very curious as to the outcome...thanks.

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My pond is full of little fish so I passed on getting any hybrid crappie for now.

I hope TJ has an update on this as well, since I would like to know even more before diving into this.

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It seems as if you were catching crappies at peak spawning times it would be pretty clear which is female and which is male. Females would be laden with eggs and the males would be milting all over ya while taking out the hook. If any doubt throw em back and catch another one. Just need to know which one would get bigger in pond environment. Sounds simple enough but then again I am still trying to figure out how I got bg in my no bg pond. wink

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But hey if we can get an order of triploids count me in for 100.

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Okay, here's my update.

Last Fall when I drained and seined my upper ponds [SMB and RES/CSBG Hybrid reproduction ponds] it flowed through my experimental HBC pond pretty well. Later that Fall and into Winter I began catching some HBC in the main pond. I was pretty surprised to learn they had somehow made it through the overflow and through 150 yards of marsh to my main pond. I was surprised because none of the 3 SMB nor my few male CSBG left the pond, only the HBC. So, experiment is over in regards to my intentions of isolating them. Not smart.

Apart from learning that given the opportunity HBC will head for moving water, here's the other data:

Growth rates for first 12 months - max size 8", average size was more like 7". So that's around 80-100% growth first year. Last winter we popped a few just under 10", but these were from my main pond through the ice. I think the HBC benefit from a much stronger and varied forage base in the main pond. So, after 16 months we saw fish approaching 10". I think this is pretty standard growth rates for Crappie, but I'm not certain. So, jury is still out to see if these HBC growth rates are increased over standard BC or WC.

In regards to reproduction - I have not witnessed any to this point, but have not been seining. I did trap a few fish today and will post below. I was excited to see evidence my YP were reproducing, but the other fish concerned me - look like Crappie to me. What are your thoughts?



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Top two look like BG to me and the last pic is a YP.

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Well, of course that's a YP! I was only concerned about the top two. They dark speckles on these fish contrasted with my typical YOY BG. I sure do hope you are right though! I guess I expected some reproduction from the HBC but seeing it is another story.

That YP was a cute little bugger. I've never seen one so small. I knew I had to have reproduction going, but this is the first evidence I've had. I can't wait to see how those YP pushing 13.5" this Winter have grown. It's an all you can eat buffet of YOY GSH, Grass Shrimp, and BG down there!


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3rd pic is cool as hell to see TJ. Congrats.

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He's awfully skinny tho. Hope he makes it through the Fall. Looks like a nice meal for the 100 WE I'm stocking this Fall!


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Travis - are you land hunting?


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I agree with Travis, BG and YP. Why do those BG and YP look like they were underfed? Larger heads, larger eyes, longer looking bodies. I thought the CSBG were taller?


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TJ - Did you stock HSB with Carl and company or just SMB? Thank you for the update…

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Yes, stocked 8 8" HSB. I have seen no evidence of their survival. The experiment completely imploded when I forced 9 acre feet of water through a .2 acre pond.

Unfortunately I have no advice to lend anyone in regards to HBC at this time. I have seen no evidence of a spawn, but I limit fishing at my pond 4x monthly and I am never fishing minnows...typically looking for my HSB and SMB. This winter I will be jigging minnows for YP and I should be able report more on the growth of the HBC.

If you are interested in stocking HBC do so in a pond that will not drain into any other BOW you don't intend them to enter....obviously.


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I am surprised that they grow so slow, do you think this was do to the size of your pond or the amount of food?

I wonder if they did spawn if the SMB and HSB ate them, they say they will spawn but are inferior fish so maybe they grow even slower and were eaten.

Had I heard of the HBC before stocking my pond I would have went that route, but not sure I want to take a chance with them now, what I would like is to move some larger males from the lake to my pond and see how they handle, like some 12-15 inch fish. Of course I would be the lucky one to guess the gender incorrectly.

Now should one be concerned if your pond drains to another BOW or if the other BOW drains into the pond?

Did you see them go both up and downstream when flooded?

You mentioned something about forcing water through your pond, why was this done?

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Drained my two reproduction ponds - go downstream to the HBC pond, then that flows to main pond. When I drained the two repro ponds they flowed thru my HBC pond. I needed to gradually release water, I didn't.


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Thanks for the update! I really appreciate it.

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Sorry not more helpful. If anyone wants to stock feel free to contact me we can chat on the phone more about it. They certainly may be suitable for pond fisheries...many variables to consider. Again feel free to hit me up anytime.

TJ


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TJ – you’ve been very helpful- thank you! I’m still in the pond planning stage but I appreciate your kind offer.. I’ll do a “need help” post when I’m closer. Again, many thanks.

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That's what we're ALL here for, TX. Don't hesitate to ask ask ask and research your butt off. You're lucky to be close to Bob and Mike Otto. You couldn't dream of two better resources to help you realize your dream.


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Update on the Hybrid Blacknose Crappie Experiment:

Caught a few from beneath the dock last month on lightning jigs - they have responded pretty well since their inadvertant introduction to the main pond - pushing 12"



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No overpopulation?

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I haven't witnessed any reproduction, but I'm also not seining. I ran traps for a few weeks and found nothing, but wasn't expecting to trap any crappie in traps baited with AM pellets.

Since I have to live with them, it's nice to see they're apparently taking to my YOY BG and GSH fairly well. Also caught a WE [one of 3 14" fish stocked] earlier in the year at 19" and well over 100 WR. No clue I'd ever catch one of them ever again, or if they'd grow much. Seems they too have figured out a way to make a living on GSH and BG.


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Man, it sounds like your pond is really taking off, TJ!


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Just back from catching BG around the dock and hooked up with a 12 and 10.5 HBC - these are escapees from the experimental pond. I fished the experimental pond to compare sizes - average from exp pond were 7-8" and very low WR. I moved 10 to the main pond, on purpose, as I couldn't stand the sight of those pinch bellies heading into winter.


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They must like golden shiners.


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Have you found any GSH in your traps? Could move some to help out the micro?

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My micro is full of GSH - and I believe they pulled a spawn, so I'm perplexed as they should have had plenty of YOY GSH to hammer. If that's the case, then why is the HBC growth so poor? I think it may be the YOY BG that's responsible for the significant growth in the main pond....or my newfound Bullhead population. Yes, I said Bullhead. frown


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I don't know TJ....I have 1 of the 4 HBC left from the ones I delivered to you that I had put in an aquarium...it is 8", never eats pellets and gets to feast on feeder goldfish once every week or two. I'm guessing it is an available forsge issue in the experimental pond.



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Bullheads?! Dammit! Where are you with the single sex LMB idea?

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Male LMB stocking plan has to take effect this Spring, esp considering my new species. I know where they came from - Ark Pond Stockers Fish Truck FHM order three years ago. I hand sorted 10 lbs and found a half dozen bullheads and promptly dispatched them. Guess I missed two...you can imagine my reaction this Summer upon discovery. So, male LMB it is this Spring. I keep putting it off as I fear the impact they'll make on the entire fishery, but I think it's finally time to roll the dice.


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We have bullheads in every pond here but CC and LMB seem to keep the bullhead numbers way down. That's a shame to ruin your pond ....

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Thanks JL, I hope the fishery will manage to improve and not be in too bad of shape. It carries a very high predator load I doubt many YOY BH will survive and mature. My plan to stock M LMB this Spring will help, too as BH are high on their list of favorite forage items. Hope it's not just wishful thinking. Good news is I have yet to CATCH a BH, only found a few in my minnow traps...so they aren't too populated yet.


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Great looking crappie TJ, I haven't caught crappie since I lived in Virginia years ago, great eating.

On the bright side bullheads are real tasty. grin



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Thought you might be interested in seeing a HBC's defining characteristic. 75% of my HBC have this black stripe, the others look like either straight WC or BC. I sure hope I don't have either, as that would destroy my strategy to reach my goals. I don't think there's enough available research on these fish to safely ascertain what I really have swimming in my ponds. Hopefully they are all truly Hybrids and they won't pose an overpopulation/stunting problem.

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That second pic is so cool, showing off that stripe.

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Take a look at this info and let me know if you have real Magnolia Crappie and if so where did they come from.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2011/mar/06/pond-perfect-crappie/?partner=RSS
















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Eric/all;

This thread has been going on a couple years now...allow me to clarify. As stated in a few other posts while I WANTED true Triploid "Magnolia" crappie, I could not find any commercial sources. About that time Rex turned me onto another option, although he admittedly had no experience with them, nor did anyone else on the Forum, but I decided to experiment and keep them isolated in a mini pond where they could do little damage. These fish are merely a BC/WC hybrid - their supposed benefit is that the F2 generation are inferior and theorhetically would not mature into adults in the manner regular offspring from a WC or BC would; thus eliminating the threat of overpopulation. These have been swimming since October 09 stocked at 3-4", and the fish in the mini pond have not exhibited any signs of reproduction but their growth has been very limited, too - average size of 7-8" and very low WR. I have the pond stocked with PK Shrimp and GSH, but it's entirely possible the forage base is not sufficient to allow ideal growth conditions.

The escapees in the main pond, however, are averaging 10-12" and solid WR of 100 or a little better in my estimation. The BOW is 15x larger, and forage includes YOY YP, BG, RES, SMB and GSH. I'm guessing the increased growth is due to the improved forage base.

I realize this thread started with my intentions of sourcing true Triploid "Magnolia" crappie so sorry for any of you who haven't read from start to finish to read the chain of stocking events.

Will keep everyone clued into my experiences with these and hopefully will lend some research into whether these hybrid bc/wc fish can serve a purpose in a small bow fishery.


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A panfish with a racing stripe. Gotta' love that. Now if they only had a "shaker" hood.....


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
A panfish with a racing stripe. Gotta' love that. Now if they only had a "shaker" hood.....


Or a bumblebee stripe right in front of their tail!


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
esshup #272130 10/19/11 11:07 PM
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Moved 46 HBC last week from the experimental pond over three days of fishing for 30 min or so each day with a 1/64 oz jighead and chartreuse GULP minnow head. The third day I only managed to catch 4 - so I'm thinking I've removed all but around 10-20%. I will head back with minnows and a slip bobber maybe this weekend. All fish were similar - 7-8" with very low WR. I don't know the total population in the main pond now as I'll never know how many made the migration last year, but I'd have to reckon around 75-100 by now. The abundant forage in the main lake should provide prime growing conditions - I'll keep my eyes peeled for evidence of a spawn and will keep you apprised of their growth rates as they are caught.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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I sure wish I would have waited and added these to my pond. I am still trying to get my dad to add some to a pond we fish, I figure 50-100 of them would not hurt, and with all the LMB in the pond already I doubt much if any spawn would even make it.

My thought is if you remove the spawn areas for Crappie (any type), do you think they would still find a way to make it work, or would this fix the problem of over population.

I have been thinking of the fish we caught years ago and most were all the same size 11-13 inches and healthy, but one day we just could not catch them any more, and we never noticed any small ones, so either the LMB kept them in check, or maybe they never could really pull off a spawn.

I guess I will never really know, but sure makes one think.

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I don't recommend anyone adding HBC to their fishery until more research has been performed. I think we're still years away from reliable information on their role in a fishery.

If you can get Magnolia crappie - triploids - that's a different story. I still haven't found these available to anyone but DNRs.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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TJ,

Just to be clear I was not taking it as you recommending this to anyone I would be doing this on my own with the unknown risks of doing so.

I was just stating the facts that I wish I would have known about these and used them instead of BC, as if you are taking the risk anyway at least with the HBC they claim to have smaller spawns of inferior fish.

By the way the pics of the fish with the stripe are cool.

So please keep us posted on your experience and if I ever decide to put these in a different pond, I may post mine here as well.

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Great, I just want to be clear I am not endorsing their role in a fishery. If you experiment with them the forum community would benefit from your results.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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They must have use blacknose black crappies as the parental cross with the white crappies with some having the stripe.

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Very expensive to do. They're a cross between a female white crappie and a male "blackstriped" black crappie. The blackstriped crappie, which is native to the White River basin in Arkansas, has a dark stripe from its dorsal fin all the way down the top of its head and mouth to its throat.


"The offspring -- the triploid crappie that won't reproduce -- retain that black stripe, and that's a good thing for us," Wilkens said. "It just makes it really easy for us to monitor their population after stocking. We can tell the difference really easily."

When female crappie begin forming eggs at the hatchery, officials harvest them into a small plastic bowl by gently squeezing the abdomen of the female. A substance called "milt" is then obtained from the male, activated with a small amount of water and quickly poured over the eggs.

Here is why this works:
Fertilized eggs are then pressure-shocked to induce a state known as "triploidy," which causes sterility. Triploid fish have three sets of chromosomes instead of the normal two sets possessed by fertile diploid fish. "You get a couple of great benefits from the triploid crappie," Wilkens said. "First, obviously, they won't overpopulate small fisheries. But also, because these magnolia crappie don't reproduce, they may put more energy into growth and may grow larger than a normal fish in a similar environment.



Last edited by ewest; 10/20/11 06:33 PM.















ewest #272272 10/22/11 11:56 PM
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That's why grass carp cost so much... They're triploids! Imagine stocking $10 a piece crappies. Ouch!

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