Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help possible legal trouble, need advice

Sometimes you can't expect the other side to be rational at all.

I play with dynamite alot,it seems to keep the nieghbors in line pretty well.

That is the best advice I have heard so far.

Its always nice when things can be worked out and making no enemys in the process.

Just saw this post. I have a confession to make. I'm a lawyer. At risk of violating a professional code of never giving away any useful information for free, in true Pond Boss forum spirit, I'll share my thoughts.

Although I practice in Missouri, I do have some familiarity with problems of this type. Under the common law (the starting point for all state laws--well, all but Louisiana), water was considered a "common enemy". In general, this meant that anyone could do anything they wanted to water on their property. This included just routing it onto their neighbor. Over the years, most states have whittled away at this basic notion by applying various exception. If a Wal-Mart parking lot goes in next door, for example, they usually cannot these days simply dump all of the rainwater into your residential city lot. The details of how states get to this point vary. Although I am not licensed in your state or familiar with the details of its laws on this issue, I will be very surprised if you do not have the right to do what you have done. In general, building a pond to detain groundwater flow does nothing to make the situation any worse for neighbors (unlike the parking lot example above).

For the record, I STRONGLY recommend taking a "friendly first" attitude in dealing with the neighbor. It is always best (even if you later end up in litigation) starting by trying everything possible to work things out amicably. If someone has to be the bad guy, let it be the guy you overpay.

Right on TheMoMule. I completely agree. Once you start a fight with a neighbor, they often don't end until one of you moves away... or "disappears".

This thread is getting long so just let me make sure I understand the basics.

Did this lady build a berm on her land that would not allow the water to flow onto her land, as it once used to, and now it will build-up on CoachB's land? All this happening after CoachB built his pond?

Sunil, you are correct in your conclusion. She believed that the addition of a pond would cause her yard to flood, even though the natural flow of the water was maintained. I did not increase the watershed, nor did I divert water from any other place to increase the amount that entered my lot, which would increase the amount onto her lot. She is starting to build a dam (might eventually be a berm) across the location where the water flows from my lot onto hers. this berm will cause the water level on my lot to rise by about 2 feet, which will flood some major areas of my lot. My lot is pretty flat.

If you look at the pictures, the point where my dock is is slightly swamped when the pond is at max level and starting to flow over her lot. Another two feet would cause flooding to the woods.

Just a quick update. We have contacted a lawyer and made arrangements with them just in case. Like many of you have said, we have a pretty strong case. My wife is supposed to meet with our neighbor next week and see if they can come to some sort of decision that we can both live with. I am not counting on that. She has piled up another couple of feet on the dam that will block the water from leaving our lot (I will post pictures later). Barring a miracle (which I do believe in), it sounds like we will head to court.

the lawyer said that it will take about 6-10 months for this to work through the court system, so I am glad I took your advice and contacted a lawyer now. He said that we would need to submit materials by mid July if we wanted this corrected by next Spring. Man, I don't want to go down this path!

Coach I hope you can resolve this before next spring, otherwise you might be showing them flooding pictures in court.
If Michigan is anything like NY, the courts move at a snails pace, all they seem to do is delay, reschedule, and postpone.

If you have anything, including trees, that may be damaged by the water backed up on your property, you should consider suing for damages to encourage her to remove the dam before the court case. If not, plant some trees. I am not in favor of ever suing, but this situation is ridiculous, and should not cost you money or time to resolve. A little risk/cost on her part may help with further disputes, and from your discription of this situation, I expect you will have futher clashes unless you nip it in the bud. In Indiana, we can contact the county surveyer to get faster action.

well, we met with the neighbor and go absolutely nowhere. Her only solution was that we completely remove our berms and return it so that her yard could drain into our pond. We again tried to tell her that her yard is dryer because of the berms and that the pond was helping control the water on her lot. She claims that we are in violation of a county ordinance, so she can build the dam. She did not name anyone that she talked to, but felt that she had the upper hand.

I checked with our township, contractor, and the environmental company that designed the pond and water flow, and all agreed that we are in full compliance. The next step is probably a lawyer's letter. I'll keep you posted as we continue.

I am so glad that we documented everything, and worked with reliable people who got the right permits.

One line that the township zoning supervisor stated will really help us, I think. He said that she cannot block our access to the wetland. she can redirect the water once it hits her land, but she cannot keep our water from leaving our lot.

Best of luck Coach... It's a shame your neighbor is not more reasonable.

At the end of the day, some people just can't be talked to.

Now you can rest assured knowing that at least you tried to be civil.

It's always comforting to have first taken the polite, ethical high road before you get as nasty as you legally can.

I'm sorry but I guess I don't see much of a major issue. Perhaps the picture is deceiving but that little berm she thru in front of your outflow isn't going to hold back much water. It appears to be far below the elevation of your berm and even lower than your pond elevation. From what It appears to be in the pictures the berm is going to do nothing but slow the outflow from your pond and spread it out. Your outflow is already starting to channel some, it might even benifit you by spreading the water and stopping the cutting effect or erosion. It certainly doesn't appear as if it is going to back up any significant amount of water on your property. Forgive me if I just ain't seeing the real picture.

I appreciate the thoughts. Since those first pictures, she has raised the dam by 2-3 feet. The angle of the picture is deceiving. Her original dam top was about a foot over the outflow. Her dam still will probably get washed out by the spring rains, but if it doesn't, it would fill our lot a couple of feet over the top. Our lot is pretty flat above the water line, and this would cause some major problems.

I meet with the township super on Friday, and will decide what to do after that point.

As much as I hate to say it, until what she does actually impacts your property, there is not much you CAN do at this point.

Keep us informed how this goes. It seems to me that if it is clear that your neighbors berm will back water up onto your lot, then you do not need to wait until this actually happens to get the berm removed.

As she builds her berm higher, build your lot higher. One of you will run out of money eventually and you'll at least have a deeper pond (;

Good luck Coach, it's ashamed that you have to go the legal route, you will probably win but your wallets gonna be alot lighter, maybe a flash flood damaging her home, caused by the berm she has put in will convince her.
Sometimes Karma happens.

What amazes me is how people can bring on their own problems by being ignorant and bullheaded. Coach it sounds to me like your neighbor has some personal issues included.

I once attended a public comment county meeting where the county wanted to make our local river into a straight ditch for the local farmers. Honest to God a family in front of me blamed algae for all the flood problems! I wanted to ask them if they flunked high school biology but I bit my tongue.

I second the notion that your neighbor has some issues. And, I also second the opinion that you're not obligated to wait until she has inundated your property to take legal action. It would seem to me - not a lawyer - that it's pretty demonstrable if her dam really will flood your lot, and that, if that's established, it would be pretty open and shut to legally force her to remove it or alter it to the point that it won't.

There's a proverb in the Bible that says not to throw pearls before swine. In this case your attempts at civility and decency constitute the pearls. Time to take the gloves off - she won't respond to anything else.

Update???

Sorry, I should have updated after the 4th weekend.

Not much has happened. I talked to the township zoning commissioner who agreed with us that she cannot deny us access to the wetland. He will meet with the township supervisor and get him involved. We had a heavy rain a couple of weeks ago that damaged part of her dam.

She has also put her house up for sale (this is the second time she is trying to sell). If anyone wants to move to Ann Arbor and live by agreeable neighbors with a great pond, let me know!